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Old 11-09-2008   #1
TheCD
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Default Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

Ok...I've been a part of this message board for a while, and I have been a fan of this team from the beginning. I don't post here very often, but am on here almost every day, and I have to ask those of you who are calling for Kubiak's head...

Have you ever been part of a football team? Do you remember what it was like if you were? I'm not trying to be rude here (just venting my frustration like everyone else), but some of you are acting like Kubiak is to blame when I'm not sure if you're paying attention to what is going on.


Now, I'm not saying there's not a few legitimate reasons for a coaching change, but some of these reasons are absurd.

1. Playcalling:
PLEASE explain how playcalling is the problem. I read day in and day out that Kubiak calls horrible plays, but I'm not seeing it. I'm reading excuses such as "he passes the ball on the 1-yard line" Well what do you expect? We have an undersized back with an undersized line, what are our chances for success against a team like the Ravens with very good, very big DL and LB? Our passing game is FAR superior to our running game. Why would we not go with our better option when we have a TD in our sights? I understand some of you out there have a run-first philosophy, but let's be frank...despite what Kubiak admits to, we are (at least for the moment) a PASS-first team. You want us to run the ball and power it in on the 1-yard line? Well Ahman is always injured and Ron Dayne is gone. Let's not forget that we are among the best in the league in TOP, this screams to me that playcalling is not the problem.

2. Turnovers:
PLEASE explain to me how turnovers are Kubiak's fault. I read the excuse that Kubiak's play selection is leading to turnovers, but I don't get it. Is the goal line INT today Kubiak's fault BECAUSE Sage threw the INT? The play was well-developed, there was at least one open man in the end-zone, and Sage threw a bad pass.

For those of you that blame turnovers on Kubiak, do me a favor: Go back through the season and look at the score when the QB turns the ball over. Look at the play. Now look at the QB's composure. Did he force the ball? Make a bad throw? Notice something here? Kubiak isn't RUNNING the play. What is the first thing a QB is told to do if there is nothing there for him? Throw the ball away. The only thing I've seen thus far that can be attributed to Kubiak in terms of TO's is that he will not bench a QB for bad play. It did frustrate me to no end that after the 3rd INT Sage was back out there. All I've seen out of Sage is that he needs to stop playing like he owes somebody money. His lone TD was due to the WR making a play off of a medium-passing route. If we so flagrantly blamed Carr for that, we have to put that on Sage as well.


I don't mean to offend anyone, but I am just trying to vent here myself (it seems to be that kind of day). I don't see any blame on Kubiak for what he's getting blamed for. I am of the school of thought that a coach deserves at least 4 years to implement his system and see if it works. It is understood that QB's are given 3 years to assimilate to a West Coast Offense. I have seen the progression in Matt's play (I am not willing to submit YET that he's inujury prone. A low hit on someone's knee does not count as being injury prone. If he goes down again after this, then I will be inclinced to feel so). I know we all just want our team to win, but sometimes it takes time.

We may not reach our total last year, but we have won at least 6 games with Kubiak. Do we not remember how horrible the CC regime was? We're STILL reeling from those rediculous contracts, and are just now starting to be able to think about signing expensive FA's (if we're even able to yet this coming offseason). I'll give Kubiak all the credit in the world for making this a fun offense to watch when the QB's aren't giving the game away. I will say, however, that if Richard Smith doens't go...or something drastic doesn't happen to make this defense better next year (or even perhaps by the end of the year) Kubiak deserves to go. I have supported Kubiak and I will support him when I think he's doing right. But NO head coach can be allowed to look at the defense that is being fielded and think it is doing well enough to not warrant a change. Throwing draft picks at it won't fix the problem.
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Old 11-09-2008   #2
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

Yes, the Texans are a good throwing team, but they also are #1 in interceptions in the NFL. And they have not lost one fumble this year from their running backs.

So lets see our options... First and goal at the 1.

1. Should we throw the ball? QB is a turnover machine.

2. Should we run the ball? RB's haven't lost a fumbled all year. And we still have two more downs even if he dosn't make it.
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Old 11-09-2008   #3
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

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Originally Posted by stingray View Post
Yes, the Texans are a good throwing team, but they also are #1 in interceptions in the NFL. And they have not lost one fumble this year from their running backs.

So lets see our options... First and goal at the 1.

1. Should we throw the ball? QB is a turnover machine.

2. Should we run the ball? RB's haven't lost a fumbled all year. And we still have two more downs even if he dosn't make it.
So by this logic we should run the ball at the goal line every down for the rest of the season?
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Old 11-09-2008   #4
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

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Originally Posted by TheCD View Post
So by this logic we should run the ball at the goal line every down for the rest of the season?
UMMM, no... I don't where you got that from. But it's really simple. If your Qb's keep Turning the ball over and over. You should try to run AT LEAST ONCE when you are the goal line. I will take my chances by running the ball at least twice on a first and goal at The one before throwing it when you have MR. TURNOVER behind center. Basically, I wouldn't feel comfortable throwing on first and goal at the one when my QB's lead the NFl in int's...
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Old 11-09-2008   #5
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

Quote:
Originally Posted by stingray View Post
UMMM, no... I don't where you got that from. But it's really simple. If your Qb's keep Turning the ball over and over. You should try to run AT LEAST ONCE when you are the goal line. I will take my chances by running the ball at least twice on a first and goal athe one before throwing it when you have MR. TURNOVER behind center.
Again, I understand your philosophy, but this was his 1st INT of the game and not only was it an EXTREMELY heads-up play by the DT, but the play called was the right play (in terms of what opened up in the defense).
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Old 11-09-2008   #6
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

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Originally Posted by TheCD View Post
So by this logic we should run the ball at the goal line every down for the rest of the season?
If Sage is our QB I wouldn't be opposed to firing off a FG the instant we get in range no matter what the down is if that counts.
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Old 11-09-2008   #7
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

I think it's much simpler than all this.

Gary Kubiak has a lot more to do with the offense than the defense. Is he ultimately responsible for both units? Yes. But it's his influence on our offense that has made it one of the best in the league. Sure, today was horrible, but you can't discount how much the offense has improved. Yes, we need to get better in the red zone - but simply, the offense is better.

Has the offense improved year to year? Yes - dramatically, even.

Has the defense improved year to year? No - it's regressing.

If you fire Kubiak now, you're flushing everything down the toilet and starting over. We're in bad shape right now, but we're not in THAT bad of shape.

Fire Richard Smith now, and turn the D over to Frank Bush. If he's somehow able to turn it around - he gets the job next year. If not, bring someone in from the outside. I don't see why this isn't automatic at this point... it's not like we're making the playoffs, and it's not like our defense can play worse - so pull the trigger.

Gary Kubiak is far, far from perfect as a head coach. He needs to work on a lot of things - but it's not time to fire him.
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Old 11-09-2008   #8
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

Kubiak might not be the direct reason for the losses, but he is responsible for them. It's the old, "It's not your fault, but it is your problem." deal for Kubiak. At this point heads need to roll for Kubiak to show that he's doing something about it. Richard Smith has to be relieved of his duties. Players who don't perform have to be benched regardless of contract or draft status. So far he's following the Capers plan where you stick to your guns even if costs your job. Hell even Capers startrd benching people (Buchanon & others) at one point.
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Old 11-09-2008   #9
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

You know, I hear what you're saying CD and you're right that calling for Kubiak's head right now isn't much of a plan. In fact it would probably do more harm than good. Apart from that however I have to look at the 2 points you gave and say the following.

1. Play Calling: The Texans are not built to be a pass-first team and that approach is going to get us in far more trouble than it ever gets us out of. Against any team with any kind of defense we're going to fail and fail badly. The Texans sport a smallish athletic (in theory) offensive line that must execute its blocking scheme to near perfection in order to run the football. Despite their size the only way this works is if the Texans predominantly run the ball. When a team can take away our running game (for instance when we fall far behind early) and make us one dimensional we do not have the size to stop a "pin your ears back" pass rush. It's just not going to happen. Our pass protection works best when the defense is thinking "run". In fact that's almost the only time our pass protection is going to work. For us to run the ball 15 times this week (and 16 times last week) is just insane and expecting good things to come from this kind of approach is terribly unrealistic. I suspect (guess more so than anything) that our offensive line is struggling to execute the zone blocking scheme as its being taught by Gibbs and so all we're left with is a passing game that's becoming less effective and more exposed by the week. It's either that or Kubiak/Shanahan/Gibbs are intentionally trying to win games through the air despite the fact that they've installed an offense that relies heavily on the ability to run.

This is not the system we were told they intended to install. This isn't anything like that. What's happening? Why are they doing this? Maybe there's a great reason for it and we just don't know what it is. I don't know which makes my opinion of the play calling go something like "WTF? RUN THE DAMN BALL!"

2. Turnovers: Players throw interceptions and fumble. Coaches try and teach them to not do that. When someone throws a pick and the coach comes back, shows you the film, and says "This guy fell down and so the pass got picked off" I can accept that. When someone gets de-cleated and fumbles the ball I understand that from time to time that's going to happen. I can accept that. Our QB's are literally interception machines. They spit out picks like they're trying to do it. It's insane. What happened to the Gary Kubiak who grabbed David Carr by the facemask and said "You've been in the league for this long and you throw that pass?" Where's that guy?

If coaches can't affect turnovers for better or worse then why do they sit guys down who are coughing the ball up? Why bother? Some turnovers are going to happen and there's clearly a "line" if you will that's "too many". We've been over that line for two years now and it's not getting any better. It's getting worse.

Finally I'd like to quote Gary Kubiak from his post-game comments. Gary said the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Kubiak
(on if he was surprised the Ravens were able to run as successfully as they did) “Yes. Like I said, I thought that we would be able to contain this football team better than we did. Give them a great deal of credit, they ran the ball 162 and the kid (Ravens QB Joe Flacco) made some big plays in the passing game. We knew we had to play great defense today, going into this game and we couldn’t help them and we didn’t get those things done.”
What in the wide world of sports led Gary Kubiak to think that his defense could contain anything? The Houston Texans have not stopped a single football team this year with the exception of the lowly Cincinnati Bengals and even they looked like they were just "this close" to putting it together and getting back in the game at times. This is probably coach speak and I'm praying that Gary Kubiak doesn't believe this load of Toro excrement any more than I do because it terrifies me to think that he might actually have thought his defense could contain the Ravens offense in light of how they've been playing the last 3-4 weeks. If he did then he's as out of touch as any head coach I've ever seen and probably won't bother trying to fix his defensive coordinator (read: "fire") this coming off-season because he's too ****ing stupid to understand that he needs to. That would be terrible for all of us.

While I don't think we need to fire Gary Kubiak at this point (I have no faith that Bob McNair has the slightest chance of hiring a better coach on his third try) I do see why people are calling for his head and I see how they could look at play calling and turnovers and lay those problems at his feet.
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Old 11-09-2008   #10
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiehardChris View Post
Has the offense improved year to year? Yes - dramatically, even.
Better stats maybe. I'm not sure a case can be made that the offense is better this year just because the numbers look good. The effect of teh turnovers have to be considered too.
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Old 11-09-2008   #11
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

it's always the quiet guy with the big post that makes the most sense.
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Old 11-09-2008   #12
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
This is not the system we were told they intended to install. This isn't anything like that. What's happening? Why are they doing this? Maybe there's a great reason for it and we just don't know what it is. I don't know which makes my opinion of the play calling go something like "WTF? RUN THE DAMN BALL!"
2. Turnovers: Players throw interceptions and fumble. Coaches try and teach them to not do that. When someone throws a pick and the coach comes back, shows you the film, and says "This guy fell down and so the pass got picked off" I can accept that. When someone gets de-cleated and fumbles the ball I understand that from time to time that's going to happen. I can accept that. Our QB's are literally interception machines. They spit out picks like they're trying to do it. It's insane. What happened to the Gary Kubiak who grabbed David Carr by the facemask and said "You've been in the league for this long and you throw that pass?" Where's that guy?

If coaches can't affect turnovers for better or worse then why do they sit guys down who are coughing the ball up? Why bother? Some turnovers are going to happen and there's clearly a "line" if you will that's "too many". We've been over that line for two years now and it's not getting any better. It's getting worse.

.
i think gary realized early on that for whatever reason we were not able to run the ball yet. so he is going against his philosophy and passing to set up the run. i actually think thats a positive instead of a negative. everyone always complains about putting square pegs in round holes but we see kube's actually utilizing(or trying to) our strong points. we cant run the ball. it was obvious early in the season.

as for turnovers i keep hearing that he should do something about it but what do you want him to do. bench aj? he turned the ball over once. i dont think anyone else has turned the ball over thats not playing the qb position. i guess we could go without a qb. maybe our new guy will be ready to put in some reps this week. im pretty sure thats not gonna solve our qb problem but you guys want something now and thats about his only other choice.

could someone thats complaing about the turnovers please let me know what you would do to fix this because im not sure what you want. and i dont want to hear that he should tell the team that he doesnt like turnovers and they should'nt turn the ball over. im pretty sure he's already told them.

im not even sure im still on the kubiak bandwagon. he was my guy but if he doesnt start to do something maybe we should try something else. but im also sure i havent heard anything here that sounds good.
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Old 11-10-2008   #13
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

I'm not trying to sound rude here or anything, but honestly.........I simply don't see how the hell or why the hell people keep defending Kubiak's playcalling on that 1st and goal. (which by the way isn't the first time he abandoned the run down there) Our QBs do nothing, but turn the damn ball over inside the redzone.....they've been doing it all season. It made no damn sense to put the ball in Sage's hands on that play, all it did was torpedo any and all confidence he had built up and totally destroyed the moral of the team. It was STUPID PLAYCALLING....I mean maybe if we had Peyton under center or a healthy Tom Brady.......or hell any QB that knew how to take care of the ball in compressed (redzone) spaces, but Kubiak has been calling plays like this down there all season and keeps getting burnt.

RUN THE FOOTBALL!!!.......it's T.O.'s by the QB that have killed us all season, not fumbles in the running game.
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Old 11-10-2008   #14
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

I agree dont fire kubes but if things go south from here alla not win one divison game i say why not lets fire Kubes the next could be no worse

and on the 1st and goal play it made kinda since ravens where expecting the run a short dump off might have worked but it didnt now tht i looked back on it i would of done

1st QB sneak
2nd Pass
3rd get the big guys up front and punch it in with leech
4th FG
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Old 11-10-2008   #15
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

It's also not just the playcalling on the 1st and goal - it's the first two series on offense for the Texans. Remember 3rd and 2 and 3rd and 3? We neither tried to run the ball to pick up a first down or threw shorter passes. We threw intermediate which were not completed and there you go three and out. I think that set the tone for the game. Give the Ravens some credit, but I think this game alone could get Kubes & Co. a pink slip, either after the season or perhaps before it even ends.
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Old 11-10-2008   #16
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

Gregory Peck in 12 O'Clock High regarding the failure of the group..." It's the Commander, It's always the Commander" enough said !!!
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Old 11-10-2008   #17
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

Kubiaks third season is starting to look eerily like Capers 4th season: after going 7-9 the previous year and being on the verge of making the playoffs, the team collapses and becomes an embarrarement to its fans. And given that this is our 7th year in existance, I'd rate yesterdays game as atleast as disappointing a performance as any singe game the Texans have ever played.
I have a hunch McNair won't be be willing to give the current coach as much time as Capers if we end up with just 3 or 4 or even 5 wins ? Beyond that, Kubiak might get another year but I dunno ? But I'm sure no change would be made (with the HC atleast), until after the season.
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Old 11-10-2008   #18
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
You know, I hear what you're saying CD and you're right that calling for Kubiak's head right now isn't much of a plan. In fact it would probably do more harm than good. Apart from that however I have to look at the 2 points you gave and say the following.

1. Play Calling: The Texans are not built to be a pass-first team and that approach is going to get us in far more trouble than it ever gets us out of. Against any team with any kind of defense we're going to fail and fail badly. The Texans sport a smallish athletic (in theory) offensive line that must execute its blocking scheme to near perfection in order to run the football. Despite their size the only way this works is if the Texans predominantly run the ball. When a team can take away our running game (for instance when we fall far behind early) and make us one dimensional we do not have the size to stop a "pin your ears back" pass rush. It's just not going to happen. Our pass protection works best when the defense is thinking "run". In fact that's almost the only time our pass protection is going to work. For us to run the ball 15 times this week (and 16 times last week) is just insane and expecting good things to come from this kind of approach is terribly unrealistic. I suspect (guess more so than anything) that our offensive line is struggling to execute the zone blocking scheme as its being taught by Gibbs and so all we're left with is a passing game that's becoming less effective and more exposed by the week. It's either that or Kubiak/Shanahan/Gibbs are intentionally trying to win games through the air despite the fact that they've installed an offense that relies heavily on the ability to run.

This is not the system we were told they intended to install. This isn't anything like that. What's happening? Why are they doing this? Maybe there's a great reason for it and we just don't know what it is. I don't know which makes my opinion of the play calling go something like "WTF? RUN THE DAMN BALL!"

2. Turnovers: Players throw interceptions and fumble. Coaches try and teach them to not do that. When someone throws a pick and the coach comes back, shows you the film, and says "This guy fell down and so the pass got picked off" I can accept that. When someone gets de-cleated and fumbles the ball I understand that from time to time that's going to happen. I can accept that. Our QB's are literally interception machines. They spit out picks like they're trying to do it. It's insane. What happened to the Gary Kubiak who grabbed David Carr by the facemask and said "You've been in the league for this long and you throw that pass?" Where's that guy?

If coaches can't affect turnovers for better or worse then why do they sit guys down who are coughing the ball up? Why bother? Some turnovers are going to happen and there's clearly a "line" if you will that's "too many". We've been over that line for two years now and it's not getting any better. It's getting worse.

Finally I'd like to quote Gary Kubiak from his post-game comments. Gary said the following:



What in the wide world of sports led Gary Kubiak to think that his defense could contain anything? The Houston Texans have not stopped a single football team this year with the exception of the lowly Cincinnati Bengals and even they looked like they were just "this close" to putting it together and getting back in the game at times. This is probably coach speak and I'm praying that Gary Kubiak doesn't believe this load of Toro excrement any more than I do because it terrifies me to think that he might actually have thought his defense could contain the Ravens offense in light of how they've been playing the last 3-4 weeks. If he did then he's as out of touch as any head coach I've ever seen and probably won't bother trying to fix his defensive coordinator (read: "fire") this coming off-season because he's too ****ing stupid to understand that he needs to. That would be terrible for all of us.

While I don't think we need to fire Gary Kubiak at this point (I have no faith that Bob McNair has the slightest chance of hiring a better coach on his third try) I do see why people are calling for his head and I see how they could look at play calling and turnovers and lay those problems at his feet.
Exactly.

I don't blame the waiter for bringing me a crap sandwich when I ordered a turkey club.

Where's the chef? I want to speak with him.

Kubiak is going to lose his job because he's too loyal to his coaches. It is HIS team. All of it. He's the one who wanted Richard Smith, which should have been an automatic firing of Kubiak on the day it was announced three years ago. Whoever DIDN'T see this day coming, the day where fans are calling for Richard Smith's head, doesn't know football IMO.

Some calls are easy to predict, some aren't. This one was an easy one. Nobody here was doing cartwheels when Richard Smith was hired. It was underwhelming, to say the least. But the Great Gary Kubiak couldn't see that? The guy with the master plan of NFL domination couldn't see that?

Sheesh....
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Old 11-10-2008   #19
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

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Originally Posted by stingray View Post
Yes, the Texans are a good throwing team, but they also are #1 in interceptions in the NFL. And they have not lost one fumble this year from their running backs.

So lets see our options... First and goal at the 1.

1. Should we throw the ball? QB is a turnover machine.

2. Should we run the ball? RB's haven't lost a fumbled all year. And we still have two more downs even if he dosn't make it.
If your gonna call a pass, why not do it on a boot, where you make a guy choose? Scratch that, he tries stupid shit and fumblerss. Run a dicve 3 times. Give it to Leech.
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Old 11-10-2008   #20
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Default Re: Those of You Calling for Kubiak Being Fired

Don't agree with the OP.

We lead the league in turnovers by QBs. Our defense is one of the worst in the league IMO. When we go up against a team with a good run defense we decide to run the ball 4 times with our star back, and run it a total of 12 times not including some garbage runs we did to run the clock out.

You can't just decide to not even try to run the ball when you play the Ravens you are giving them the game. You have to try to run. But no, we have a pass happy coach with a pass happy offensive coordinator when we have a rookie LT and QBs that are known for making dumb decisions.

I don't see the genius of Kubiak. Nor do I see the small smart things that make a coach successful. In reality, Kubiak is just another offensive coordinator that didn't cut it as a head coach.
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