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Old 12-29-2004   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Off the top of your head I bet you can't name the "dominant" lineman on the Patriots.
You are probably correct... not sure I can name the DOMINANT Patroit, but the first name that comes to mind is Joe Andruzzi (sp?), but you may be wanting Ashworth, I think is their tackle...Nimmo (SP) is smaller but I do not think he is the one you are looking for....my guess is the old man (Probably 30 yrs. old) Andruzzi.
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Old 12-29-2004   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
The question wasn't literal really. I know google is around the corner.

Let me get this straight. You have a massive thread telling us it takes Carr 4 years to develop and to have patience but the linemen should be replaced under a different timetable. Pitts and Wand are playing up to their draft position. I could argue Carr isn't.
No No No Vinny,
my point for starting this thread was to discuss the upcoming needs. I am one that believes that we need time to develop. That is why I worded the original post as I did.

It is clear and IT is apparent that the OLine is not what it could be.

Is it your suggestion that we wait and see if the OLine develops?

I will say this...I think this organization has screwed up in the past drafts not addressing the need of young linemen on both sides the ball....IT ALL STARTS IN THE TRENCHES..

but with that said...starting a new team...you need EVERYTHING...you need to sell tickets too...so there is the tendency to draft those high profile names..

...but I can guarantee you one thing, with out LINES you have nothing but a disaster waiting to happen.....

...SEE CLEVELAND

Last edited by BWPaint; 12-29-2004 at 01:44 AM.
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Old 12-29-2004   #23
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I was telling the Fresno guy to be fair to all the players and to use the same logic. Everything isn't the line's fault or the Coaches fault when discussing Carr's shortcomings. If we are going to be patient with Carr we need to be patient with our line. They are both positions that take a bit of time to develop. My thoughts on the line were in post number 8. Our line is nothing like the disaster in Cleveland.
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Old 12-29-2004   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
I was telling the Fresno guy to be fair to all the players and to use the same logic. Everything isn't the line's fault or the Coaches fault when discussing Carr's shortcomings. If we are going to be patient with Carr we need to be patient with our line. They are both positions that take a bit of time to develop. My thoughts on the line were in post number 8. Our line is nothing like the disaster in Cleveland.
So how long do you give them to develop, before you start to replensish the tank?
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Old 12-29-2004   #25
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Originally Posted by BWPaint
I will say this...I think this organization has screwed up in the past drafts not addressing the need of young linemen on both sides the ball....IT ALL STARTS IN THE TRENCHES.
Yeah, we could have taken Bryant McKinney and Jordan Gross, but Carr is with another team and so is Andre Johnson if you take "stud" linemen early. Everyone want's a complete team overnight and the truth is it takes a few years to build an expansion team.
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Old 12-29-2004   #26
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Originally Posted by Vinny
Yeah, we could have taken Bryant McKinney and Jordan Gross, but Carr is with another team and so is Andre Johnson if you take "stud" linemen early. Everyone want's a complete team overnight and the truth is it takes a few years to build an expansion team.
yep see my quote above...it takes time...

I agree...I have no compaints...and the Texans will get my 3K for my 2 seats again next year and the year after...

...but again my point is that without a strong line, a serious run to the SB is hard to accomplish...

correct?
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Old 12-29-2004   #27
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You never told me if my answer to your "Dominant" Question about the Patriots was right?
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Old 12-29-2004   #28
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My answer was in post # 20.
Quote:
The question wasn't literal really. I know google is around the corner.
I guess my point was you don't need a bunch of guys named Munchak, Matthews or Steinkuhler as you were longing for from the Oiler days. For every first round lineman you take you set aside a guy named Carr or AJ as the alternative. Dominant linemen don't grow on trees. It takes time to develop most players. You don't see a lot of top-10 type picks on the Pats line. You see a lot of guys who got better as they developed.

Here are all the first day Tackles in the 2003 NFL Draft...

First round
Jordan Gross Panthers - Gross was a top ten pick and struggles at Left Tackle. I believe they are moving him to RT full time next year.
George Foster Broncos Georgia - Mr Ankle-breaker. Solid young player, rarely if ever on the active roster his first year. Only has a handfull of career starts.
Kwame Harris 49ers Stanford - Plays behind someone named Kyle Kosier

Second round
Jonathan Stinchcomb Saints - Georgia - Don't know much about his development but plays behind Wayne Gandy. Gandy is still a solid NFL Tackle.

Third round
Wayne Hunter Seahawks - Plays behind Chris Terry AND Floyd Womack
Seth Wand Texans Northwest Missouri State - Starts, but with a young developing team.
Wade Smith Dolphins - Solid player. A Chester Pitts clone @ LT. Backs up Damion McIntosh
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Old 12-29-2004   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
I guess my point was you don't need a bunch of guys named Munchak, Matthews or Steinkuhler as you were longing for from the Oiler days.
And I guess my point was that when you have a line you have so many more options and successes.

I do not doubt our line will become good, but I think that it can become better. It WILL take time, no doubt....but for us to sit still makes no sense to me...and I hope they work out...

... an NFL team has a continual process of players migrating through its organization.....and the OLine, is the stability of a team...err Pittsburg year after year....they draft Oline men..

Again, my point is that we have to get Oline men...this bunch is OK, but it can be better....

...even Carr validated my concern with his outburst on the side line...

without the upgrade we WILL CONTINTUE TO DEBATE ABOUT CARR AND DAVIS.... which is unfair to both...because if David had 50 more plays a year to throw and Double D had 50 more openings to run through...

...BABY WE WOULD BE THERE!


...ps...thanks for that post on the OL guys drafted....I remember Gross coming out that draft, kind of a thin OL draft, but many thought he was all World.....interesting and it validates my point...you never know and you better keep drafting those big slabs of meat....it is one hell of tough position!

PPS...your good VINNY!

Last edited by BWPaint; 12-29-2004 at 02:29 AM.
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Old 12-29-2004   #30
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I know it wasn't literal if I wanted to look smart I would have googled and found all five lineman and looked like a genious, I just know 2 off the top of my head and know they have a good o-line unit. And it looks to me like Carr has developed pretty well considering the circumstances and when he's given time. So maybe our line should get its act together. It doesn't take a genious to figure out we got problems on the line. However I said hopefully the line will get it together for next year and anyone was replaceable, I didn't say they all needed to go.
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Old 12-29-2004   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
You don't see a lot of top-10 type picks on the Pats line. You see a lot of guys who got better as they developed.
There are several OL's around the league better than the Patriots' but since it has been the topic of comparison (from YahooNFL by the way, not Google):

LT--Matt Light, 2nd round
LG--Joe Andruzzi, undrafted
C--Daniel Koppen, 5th round
RG--Stephen NEal, undrafted
RT--Brandin Gorin, 7th round
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Old 12-29-2004   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Off the top of your head I bet you can't name the "dominant" lineman on the Patriots. I have typed this a few times but we only had two players play at the same position they were in last season. McKinney and Weigert. Everyone else (Wand, Pitts, Wade, Bruenner) was either new to the team or learning a new position. The line has gotten better as the season has unfolded and there is no reason to think this mix of guys isn't going to work if you are objective and follow other NFL teams and how their linemen mature as units.

I've got to agree with you on this Vinny. The line has gotten better. I expected/wanted to see improvement about three weeks or so before it actually started to show up consistently and I wrote that big ol post about not seeing any at the time. It has started to appear regularly though and that's not just in response to the latest couple of wins. That's in response to three weeks of watching the Texans o-line run block just flat out better.

I believe two things. I believe that once the zone blocking scheme is down pat, business as usual, and nobody is having to do much thinking about it then the pass protection will improve as well. I know it doesn't make much sense but that's what I think.

I also believe that before it's all done Chester Pitts will be a Pro Bowl guard. I don't know if Seth Wand will be joining him but Wand is going to be a very good LT for years to come. It's time that they both need, that's all.

I wonder where Seth is right now on sacks allowed and such compared to Pitts in his first and second years? I'm sure once the season wraps up someone will have that info.
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Old 12-29-2004   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hervoyel
I wonder where Seth is right now on sacks allowed and such compared to Pitts in his first and second years? I'm sure once the season wraps up someone will have that info.
Chester Pitts
2002 15.5 sacks allowed, 9 penalties including 3 false starts and 5 holds
2003 5.75 sacks allowed, 17 penalties including 8 false starts and 7 holds

2004 4 sacks allowed, 12 penalties including 7 false starts and 3 holds

Seth Wand
2004 11.50 sacks allowed, 3 penalties--1 false start and 2 holds
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Old 12-29-2004   #34
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The Texans have made changes to their line each year. Good/great units take time to work together and form. They need to learn the system and have a chance to know the players on their left and right. KC had the same great line for 2 straight years before letting Tait go this past year. That is one of the best lines in football. They have more dominant players than the Texans, but it's the unit that makes it so good. The Patriots haven't changed their line either. If Barron from Free Shoes U or Brown from OU are available I say take them because you can't pass up on good linemen, but keep the line the same and let them learn. They've shown flashes of being very good.
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Old 12-29-2004   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
Chester Pitts
2002 15.5 sacks allowed, 9 penalties including 3 false starts and 5 holds
2003 5.75 sacks allowed, 17 penalties including 8 false starts and 7 holds

2004 4 sacks allowed, 12 penalties including 7 false starts and 3 holds

Seth Wand
2004 11.50 sacks allowed, 3 penalties--1 false start and 2 holds

So, looks like Seth is about in the middle between Chesters 1st year and his 2nd. That's about where I would have expected him to be after sitting a year and it looks like he makes fewer mistakes. All in all, not bad. Next year should show a marked improvement as most players make the biggest improvement in their second year of PLAYING. At this point in our development, IMO, LT is fairly far down the list of "Upgrade needed" positions. Now McKinny on the other hand............?
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Old 12-29-2004   #36
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I have to take exception to the premise that the O-line has improved over the latter part of the season. The Texans have allowed over 3.2 sacks/game in December, compared to 2.7 in the previous games. Davis rushed for 150 yards in the last game, but half of his 30 attempts went for 1 yard or less. That's not an indication of a consistent line.

What has been consistent about the Texans offense is the inability to put TDs on the board. The offense has scored more than 2 TDs in a game only twice this season. Both occasions in hurry up offenses when down by 3 scores. Lately, the book on the Texans is to tackle the RB on the way to the QB. Davis has had some big games, but teams aren't afraid of him. They are afraid of Carr & AJ. If the Texan O-line can't protect Carr, this offense will never work.

The idea that the line will automatically improve if just left alone is based on some faulty logic. One, the reason the Chiefs & Broncos line has remained together is because they are good. If they weren't getting results, those teams would fix the problems. Two, I understand the logic that Wand & Pitts could turn the corner with another year under their belt. But that just doesn't hold for McKinney (7 year vet) & Wiegert (10 year vet). They've regressed and there isn’t any sound rationale that they'll turn it around next season. Bringing them back and expecting improved results doesn't make sense.
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Old 12-29-2004   #37
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The line played well against Jacksonville and to say otherwise is absurd. We dominated the clock with nearly 40 mins time of possession, and had 211 yards rushing. You don't do that with poor line play against Henderson and Stroud. I think most of our TD problems rest in the fact that David Carr isn't very good in the red zone and we have no TE that doesn't tip the play. Most solid red zone teams have versatile TE's. We have one guy who can't block and one guy who can't catch. I think for his career Carr only has one game with more than 2 TD's in three years.
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Old 12-29-2004   #38
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The O-line did a good job run blocking against JAX, but they also gave up four sacks. I cringe every time we go into the shotgun on third and short because I know what's coming. SACK.
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Old 12-29-2004   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
The line played well against Jacksonville and to say otherwise is absurd. We dominated the clock with nearly 40 mins time of possession, and had 211 yards rushing. You don't do that with poor line play against Henderson and Stroud.
Absurd? What game were you watching? The reason the Texans won the time of possession was due to the Jags converting 1 of 10 3rd downs and picking up only 6 1st downs the entire game. At what point in the game did you say to yourself, "I'm glad the mighty Texan O-line is controlling the game and keeping those dangerous Jags off the field?". The Texans had 106 yards of total offense on 34 plays in the 2nd half. And still held a 2:1 time of possession advantage in the 2nd half. Henderson & Stroud played well enough to hold the Texans offense to 14 points. With 13 tackles and 2.5 sacks between them, they were hardly dominated.

As I've posted in a different thread, Carr threw 7 2nd half passes, was sacked 3 times, and was chased from the backfield on 4 occasions. So, for every pass Carr threw, he was either hit or ran for his life. Not a real good ratio. But hey, it must be Carr's fault, right? Nice work getting that in. BTW, the Texans were 2 for 3 (66%) in red zone TDs on Sunday. Carr was 2 for 2 with a TD pass. The problem right now isn't converting red zone opportunities, it's getting red zone opportunities in the first place. And the O-line's poor pass protection on 3rd downs, as well as penalties, are killing the Texans ability to make long drives. Look at their stats, look at their play. This is a poor O-line and they aren't getting any better.
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Old 12-29-2004   #40
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Too bad we didn't roll up 300 yards rushing. That may have impressed you perhaps. We move the ball well (check the stats), but we have trouble scoring. I get your points....but we don't see eye to eye on this one. I'll leave it at that.
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