So..... keep Chris Palmer, the coaches, the team...

[Porky]

Harry Biped - "The difference is that so many of you obviously know little to nothing about the actual GAME of football and are more interested in the cosmetic side of it."

You mean like maybe not knowing how to spell Holmgren?

As to your last post, the problem is that the Texans are not in some vacuum. Things do not magically happen just because we want them too or we don't except failure. It takes time to build a team from scratch. They compete for talent with 31 other franchises. When building a house, you don't skimp on the foundation. If you do, your house will go up quickly, and look beautiful for a couple of years, then collapse. The foundation must be strong. Then the house is around for generations. This year they will finish higher than roughly half of the teams, some who have been in existence for decades. Since you seem to have all the answers, what in your estimation would make the Texans a SB winner next year?

[El Tejano]

Hey, dude has took us from 4 to 5 to at very least 7 wins. At that rate, we could have 10 wins next season. I will stay with Capers for now. However if we go lower than 7 wins next year, he's gotta go.

[infantrycak]

Here is the kind of coaching addition/change I wouldn't mind seeing--from ESPN Insider/Mortenson, so can't be linked:

For instance, I'm told that two of their most-valued assistants – offensive coordinator Cam Cameron and offensive line coach Hudson Houck – both have contracts that expire at the end of this season. They'll be free agents.

Houck arguably might be a greater asset. A line coach is often the backbone of an effective offense, the guy who molds the least athletically talented unit of a team to the point that the most-gifted players such as the quarterback, running back and receivers can put the ball in the end zone.

Houck may have produced more Pro Bowl linemen in his 21-year-history than any other position coach in the NFL, but his work this season with basically a bunch of no-names – and no Pro Bowl blockers – may be his best yet. It has brought adulation around the league from his peers and front office executives.

The guy has taken a line with only one returning guy from last year, added two vet yeoman players and a 3rd round center and 7th round RT and come up with an OL that has only given up 19 sacks.

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by Harry Biped

The job of the players and coaches is to win, not to just compete and look good doing so. That is the mentaily that seperates teams like the Yankees from the rest. I want my team to expect to be the best every year, be it their 3rd or 30th seaon in exsistance, and for them to be upset enough to fix problems when they are not the best. That is not out of line or unreasonable.

No, having 100+ years of history in the largest market and unlimited money is what separates the Yankees.

Capers said it very well this week--change every two or three years and never give the coaches time to implement their system and you get the Cleveland Browns,i.e. perenial top 10 draft picks.

And yes, acting like a 3rd year team and 30th year team are exactly the same or that the Texans aren't doing anything to improve are both out of line and unreasonable.

[Harry Biped]

Originally Posted by Porky

Harry Biped - "The difference is that so many of you obviously know little to nothing about the actual GAME of football and are more interested in the cosmetic side of it."

You mean like maybe not knowing how to spell Holmgren?

As to your last post, the problem is that the Texans are not in some vacuum. Things do not magically happen just because we want them too or we don't except failure. It takes time to build a team from scratch. They compete for talent with 31 other franchises. When building a house, you don't skimp on the foundation. If you do, your house will go up quickly, and look beautiful for a couple of years, then collapse. The foundation must be strong. Then the house is around for generations. This year they will finish higher than roughly half of the teams, some who have been in existence for decades. Since you seem to have all the answers, what in your estimation would make the Texans a SB winner next year?

First of all it, poor message board etiquette to point out spelling mistakes because the point of the process is to convey the idea or message and not to worry about the specifics of the syntax or spelling. One could spend his entire day picking out mistakes on here if he wanted to.

Secondly, you are absolutely right about needing to build a foundation before building the house. The problem is that the Texans coaching ignores the foundation. In football terms foundation refers to fundamentals. Doing the little things right so that they don't hurt the overall success of the team. But guess what, that is the thing we do the worst. the little things, especially on offense. Way, way too many penalties in key situations. Too many holding calls and false starts. Too many bad or wrong pass routes in key situations. Not a clue how to counteract a blitz and protect the QB. Carr does not handle pressure well because he does not play fundamentally sound at the QB position. He makes bad decisions under pressure, because that is what he is coached to do. When he is in the pocket and under pressure, he does not keep his feet moving and that is partially why he gets sacked so much. The other side is that the O-line runs lousy and completely ineffective blocking schemes. It is Palmer's job, and Capers to an extent, to recognize and fix all of that, but they haven't. Offense is supposed to be the easy part because you know what you are doing and the defense doesn't. That is unless they are playing a team as predicable and ineffective as Palmer's offense.

I understand that no team will likely win a Superbowl in it's 2nd or 3rd season, but we should still have high expectations. The Texans had a huge advantage over most expansion teams primarily because they were the only expansion team that year and many teams had salary cap problems and had to let good players go to the Texans at that time. The Texans have done a good job with the draft and put enough talent on the field for them to be a good playoff team, right now. They are nothing more than a mediocre team right now because of poor coaching, not the talent or lack of talent. They are being built by Casserly to be able to compete for many years, but it won't matter if the coaching can't make them into a competitive team, which they're not right now. That is unless you count beating teams with non-winning records(except possibly Jacksonville who could go 9-7). To be satisfied with knocking others, especially other bad to mediocre teams, out of the playoffs is a pretty weak way to create momentum. The team, the coaches and the fans should be nothing short of very disappointed with anything less than a playoff appearance this season. Moral victories are reserved for losers, because winners don't need them.

Now for all of you who feel that I'm out of line, I challenge you to present a case that this team has improved significantly on offense because of the coaching from last year to this. Exclude the fact that we have one of the best young WRs in the game, a good 2nd year RB and a talented QB. Remember, when Davis was hurt, the running game was lousy. Now that he has healed, it's better. Subtract what the talent brings and make a real, educated case. If all you can offer is the "love the Texans because they're ours and they are getting a little better each year" argument, then you will have failed the challenge.

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by Harry Biped

Now for all of you who feel that I'm out of line, I challenge you to present a case that this team has improved significantly on offense because of the coaching from last year to this. Exclude the fact that we have one of the best young WRs in the game, a good 2nd year RB and a talented QB. Remember, when Davis was hurt, the running game was lousy. Now that he has healed, it's better. Subtract what the talent brings and make a real, educated case. If all you can offer is the "love the Texans because they're ours and they are getting a little better each year" argument, then you will have failed the challenge.

See now the way I look at it AJ had one of the best rookie seasons ever by a WR and is in the pro-bowl this year partly because the coaching has helped him run routes well (a weakness out of college and one of those fundamentals you talked about) because of coaching. Pitts made a huge improvement year one to two, along with the rest of the OL that almost set an NFL record for sack production at least in part because of coaching. Wand became a starter in year two from being a small school 3rd round pick at least in part because of coaching. David Carr is upping his completion rate and improving his TD's to Int's and being given more responsibility in part due to coaching.

How about the defensive side as well? You seriously going to argue that Dunta who was not nearly as well regarded as Hall has done so well without any influence from Hoke. Do you really want to argue the 2003 D didn't completely fall apart with all those injuries due to the talent of the street free agents that were signed rather than the creative schemes such as no down linemen and 6 LB's that Capers/Fangio installed.

There's a simple off-the-cuff explanation, I could go on. But since you are into challenges, seems to me you have said the coaches need to go and made a lot of generalizations but really haven't "presented a case" that the offense hasn't improved due to coaching. Why don't you belly up to the bar and pick a coach or coaches and point out particular mistakes?

Oh and FYI on penalties:
Wand 2004--3
Pitts 2003--17, 2004--12
McKinney 2003--3, 2004--0
Weigert 2003--7, 2004--3
Wade 2003 (Miami)--3, 2004--3

Pitts is the only guy with a penalty problem and even he has improved--I know, they all come in key situations though and that has to be the coachs' fault not the players'.

[Harry Biped]

It's a nice try, but no. Johnson was a great player, from day one. He came from an environment that was conducive for him to succeed fast in the NFL. He improved the system, the system didn't really improve him much. What about all of the other receivers who run bad routes and can't catch the ball when it is right in their hands? Are their fundamentals just being ignored by Palmer? To make any reference to the O-line at any position is ridiculous. They have been awful this season. Pitts makes the same stupid mistakes he has always made and at nearly the same rate. Of coarse he and all of them will improve some from experience, but the schemes are still not working very well. Every time Carr tries a pass he gets killed. The only running back that has produced is a healthy Davis with little thanks to the line. I'll admit that the O-line is not quite as bad as they were in the 2002 season, but there is no real improvement over last year. In fact, the line was better last season. All of the ineffectiveness and inconsistency points to one thing. Coaching! Right back where we started.

As for defense, if you read my previous post you would notice that the challenge referred to the offense. I'll say this once more, this tread is about Palmer's failures. I'm not so ready to dump Capers just yet, but if he keeps his wagon hitched to Palmer, he and the rest of the staff will be Audi 5000(old reference and I apologize for it) .

[Vinny]

Pittsburg averages 328 yards per game on 942 plays. We average 326 yards per game on 944 plays. Should Pittsburgh fire their offensive coordinator?

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by Harry Biped

It's a nice try, but no. Johnson was a great player, from day one. He came from an environment that was conducive for him to succeed fast in the NFL. He improved the system, the system didn't really improve him much.

Yes he was a great player and regardless of whether you want to accept it he had room for improvement part of which has been realized under the coaching he has received. 10 drops last year, 4 this year and much better route running this year--both of which were noted weaknesses coming out of college.

What about all of the other receivers who run bad routes and can't catch the ball when it is right in their hands? Are their fundamentals just being ignored by Palmer?

Really? Other than your perfect when he got here AJ with the miscommunication problem on the hokey intentional grounding call, which WR are you going to say runs bad routes?--give us some examples how about? As for hands are you refering to the corrected under this coaching AJ. Or is it Bradford with 1 last year and 2 this year. Or maybe Gaffney with 1 last year and 1 this year. Armstrong with 2 this year. Sorry but 1-2 drops is fantastic rather than an indication of a problem due to poor coaching.

Every time Carr tries a pass he gets killed.

3400+ yds (instead of 2600) and counting to the contrary, best ypa of his career up from 5.8 to 7.7, completion percentage up from 52 to 61.3, rating up from 62 to 83, 47 passes over 20 yds, 6 over 40 yds instead of 31 and 5 and 15 TD's rather than 9--all on two less passing attempts--yeah no improvement, no passing game.

The only running back that has produced is a healthy Davis with little thanks to the line.

Wells got one start and gained over 100 yds. IMO the OL coming together and improving is the single biggest need for next season. As I posted in another thread, I would be thrilled if the Texans would pick up the Chargers' OL coach, but with the exception of an upgrade for McKinney, I think the personnel are there.

All of the ineffectiveness and inconsistency points to one thing. Coaching! Right back where we started.

Well not really--you have provided a lot of easily disprovable assertions and nothing specific on what the coaches are doing wrong, what they need to do to have the team improve. Whoops, never mind, that is right back where we started.

[Harry Biped]

Originally Posted by Vinny

Pittsburgh averages 328 yards per game on 942 plays. We average 326 yards per game on 944 plays. Should Pittsburgh fire their offensive coordinator?

Pittsburgh has only lost 1 game the Texans have lost 8 so far. What counts is wins and losses and to that end we are not yet a good team. What those stats really reflect is how bad the play selection is in the Red Zone. Sure we can get there, but we don't score frequently enough, especially TDs, when we do get there. You can't win if you don't score. Pittsburgh has obviously done a better job of mixing offensive scoring with defensive performance. That's something that Palmer has shown that he has no clue how to do.

For infantrycak, all of your arguments are very pedestrian. If you don't see the receivers running bad route and dropping passes, then you are apparently not watching the games because it happens a lot in every game. Of coarse Carr is improving, he is a 3rd year player who has been the starter from day one. Compare him to Big Ben in his 1st year at Pittsburgh, Carr is certainly no less talented, but he is clearly less effective. Why? It's that darn coaching thing again. You can talk in circles about this or that, but the fact is that the level of improvement that has taken place in terms of coaching up the offense is not enough to reflect positive offensive success. And you certainly haven't proven that Palmer has improved the team, basically because you can't. He hasn't done it, even though that is his job. The only offensive constancy that the Texans have had since their inception, is being ineffective, especially when it counts. Score points and win games. That is success, not score a few points and lose at least half of your games a year. Be in the playoff hunt in the last week or 2 of the season, for real, not just thru complicated math, and have a real chance to get there. At least show significant growth from one season to the next. None of that has been done as of yet. Rid our selves of the problem, Chris Palmer and replace him with a decent OC, doesn't have to be a big name, and we'll all be happy in the end because we will start to win. I know that the defense is not the best, but it is good enough to be competitive in the playoffs, the offense is no where near that. With a good offense, the defensive stats will improve as well.

[J-Man]

Originally Posted by Vinny

"Tweeners" are our OLB's. You have to be at around 250 to hold up to Offensive Guards and Tackles. Smaller (230 pound guys and the like) have a hard time sheding blocks and 3-4 OLB's take on linemen much more than 4-3 OLB's do because they have two tackles and two ends covering the linemen. We just have 3 Tackle-types covering 5 guys so you have to have more size in your OLB's in this system. We will probably draft one 'tweener' every single year just like the Steelers do. DJ would be an inside linebacker in our system.

Vinny...I'm tracking with you. I probably should have not been as specific as saying OLB since most have smaller body types. My point was that it is easier to draft a 240lb LB that already knows how to cover the pass, play in a 2pt stance, and has some pass rush skills. Not to mention the fact that it's not out of the realm of possibility to bulk a guy up by 10-15lbs if raw size becomes an issue. I believe Ray Lewis came out of Miami at just over 230 and he consistently plays at 240+. I just think that we should at least consider that if the right athlete is available while we are on the clock (I am thinking someone like Ahmad Brooks from Virginia).

[OzzO]

Harrry B - your entitled to your opnion (hence the message board) but I don't think your view is going to be swayed just like the numerous posters on this thread. You've asked how Palmer has improved the offense but then limit that a response cannot include players.

Infantrycak and Vinny have given numerous examples (interesting as I was gonna go a fact-finding mission myself) as to how we have improved, but you don't like their responses or then aim for a different rebuttal. If you feel Palmer has not improved the offense, then might I suggest you give specific season examples - not just game examples as teams can have bad games and also not just sweeping generalizations such as Carr getting killed on every play and Davis is making the runs with little thanks to the O-line.

I beleive Porky noted, inform the class on what you feel will take us to the superbowl next season as that's what appears will make you feel we have succeeded. By the way, I'm glad you have a different view... makes the board interesting.

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by Harry Biped

For infantrycak, all of your arguments are very pedestrian. If you don't see the receivers running bad route and dropping passes, then you are apparently not watching the games because it happens a lot in every game.

Well it only takes a pedestrian argument to beat a demonstrably wrong assertion. And wouldn't you admit that was a pretty pedestrian attempt at being condescending?

Good job of proving you have no perspective on watching the games--turns out the Texans WR's may have the lowest % of drops in the NFL.

% of incompletions due to drops:

David Carr 8.8%

Drew Bledsoe 15%
Tom Brady 9.0%
Drew Brees 11.6%
Kerry Collins 13.5%
Marc Bulger 11%
Daunte Culpepper 10.5%
Jake Delhomme 15.7%
Brett Favre 13.2%
Trent Green 21%
Joey Harrington 17.6%
Matt Hasselback 18%
Byron Leftwich 21.1%
Peyton Manning 10.6%
Donovan McNabb 16.6%
Carson Palmer 17.2%
Chad Pennington 20.4%
Jake Plummer 16.1%
Ben Roethlisberger 11.1%
Vinny Testeverdi 11.0%
Michael Vick 10.8%
Billy Volek 13.4%

I guess my perception of the number of drops from watching every game is more accurate in comparison to the league than yours. Sorry, I can't make that argument more exciting for you, so I will just stick with accurate.

[Porky]

The steelers have 343 points, and we have 295 points. So, I think a case can be made that they have made better use of the yards they have gained. Whether that is coaching, players, or some combination thereof can be debated.

But, the big difference between the Steelers and Texans is on defense, where they have given up 227 points to our 317 (and that is after our giving up 5 points the last two weeks)

So they have scored 50 more, but given up 90 less, yet I haven't heard Mr. Biped call for the head of Fangio. I find that a bit interesting.