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Old 12-27-2004   #21
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Originally Posted by Harry Biped
From day one, this organization has decided that it is better to look good than to be good, and we season ticket holders who have invested thousands of dollars in this team are left with hardly anything to show for our investment. A good team can be built in 3 seasons, just not with bad coaching. Pittsburgh, San Diego, and the Jets are 3 teams that have a comparable level of talent and better coaching, and that is why they are winning and we are not.
First of all, calling the team superficial is silly. This is a serious orgainzation that has a desire to win long-term and it's fairly obvious to me.

We have the 4th best expansion record ever. Starting a team from scratch is not like rebuilding an existing team. You can turn around an existing team in 2-3 years but to 'expect' a playoff run after two years of an expansion build is not realistic.

Finally, a season ticket is not an 'investment' just like buying a Car isn't an investment.
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Old 12-27-2004   #22
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While I'm not a smashmouth football basher, it's like with this team we're trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. This is not a "smashmouth"-control-the-clock talent base we have on offense. Why draft Carr and Andre if all Capers wants to do is his RB's get 30+ carries a game?

To me this offense is like going out, buying a Corvette, and never breaking 35mph.
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Old 12-27-2004   #23
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Originally Posted by BradK10
Why draft Carr and Andre if all Capers wants to do is his RB's get 30+ carries a game?

To me this offense is like going out, buying a Corvette, and never breaking 35mph.
For the same reasons the Steelers drafted Bradshaw/Swan/Stallworth (Swan and Stallworth with 23 years of playing time had 3 years with over 1000 yds by the way)and Roethlisberger/Ward/Burress and the Cowboys drafted Aikman/Irvin.

And what is wrong with wanting to run 30 times a game?--he wants to pass 35 times a game as well.
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Old 12-27-2004   #24
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I don't get that "season ticket is an investment" thing, either. The last time I checked, a season ticket allows you to view a football game inside a football stadium.

And building a team from scratch takes longer than 3 years. It might even take as long as 5, like Capers and Casserly have stated, repeatedly. Revamping established teams like the Jets take less time.

There should be fine print on the back of those season tickets that read,

The Houston Texans reserve the right to revoke the privileges of any season ticket holder that displays acts of unnecessary and unjustified impatience.
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Old 12-27-2004   #25
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Anytime that you spend money for services or products, it is an investment. I'm sorry that many of you are not able or willing to see that, but it is still the case. And for the guy who said that buying a car is not an investment, then what is it. Do you not use it to go to work and get groceries and the like? Do you not get substantial value out of it? Of coarse a car is an investment just like season tix or a steak dinner or even a hair cut. If the services that were rendered to you were of insufficient quality you have a right to request satisfaction. That's how things work in a free market. My position is no different. I just want all of the games to be entertaining and have some meaning late in the season and to win key games when it counts. If you think that my statement about the organization caring more about appearances than wins was out of line, then tell me this, what have the Texans organization done anything outside of the draft to improve this team over 3 losing season? Significant coaching changes? No! Significant free agent signings? No! Any changes to philosophy? No! Any improvement of any kind in that manner? No! Raise ticket prices for an inferior product? YES! All I want is for them to improve the team, by whatever means is necessary. Talent only goes so far. The coaching is what guides the talent, especially young talent. Coaching has not lived up to it's responsibility and the philosophy, for the most part, has not worked. If the game against the Jags was Dom Caper's system working like it was blueprinted to work, then we are in big trouble, because the Jags were in the game until very late, and they played a terrible game with key players out. If a few things had gone differently yesterday, everyone on these boards would be in a bad mood because it could have been another disappointing loss. But when the Texans win, everybody forgets that they still have big issues with the offense, and like it or not those problems don't go away just because you won one game basically only with the defense.
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Old 12-27-2004   #26
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Originally Posted by Harry Biped
what have the Texans organization done anything outside of the draft to improve this team over 3 losing season? Significant coaching changes? No! Significant free agent signings? No!
There have been coaching changes--you of course built in your own escape valve with your subjective "significant." And yes I would consider Weigert, Bruener, Wade and Smith to be significant FA acquisitions. Name a better RT and DT that were available last year and what it would have cost to get them.

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Any changes to philosophy? No!
Only a short yellow school bus rider would expect a change of philosophy within the 1st 3-4 years. They have to build the team 1st.

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Any improvement of any kind in that manner? No!
4-12 2002 to 7-9 minimum, possibly 8-8 and 32nd offense to 15th. Seems like some remedial math classes are in order.
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Old 12-27-2004   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Biped
Anytime that you spend money for services or products, it is an investment. I'm sorry that many of you are not able or willing to see that, but it is still the case. And for the guy who said that buying a car is not an investment, then what is it. Do you not use it to go to work and get groceries and the like? Do you not get substantial value out of it?
An investment is something you expect to make a profit on. A car is a depreciating asset. I can see using the term loosely because you equate getting a 'return' out of money spent in the form of entertainment. Fair enough, and not worth debating.
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Originally Posted by Harry Biped
If you think that my statement about the organization caring more about appearances than wins was out of line, then tell me this, what have the Texans organization done anything outside of the draft to improve this team over 3 losing season? Significant coaching changes? No! Significant free agent signings? No!
Nearly half of the guys in the trenches were inked in the last off-season. They signed 4 starting linemen in Wade, Smith Breunner (TE) and Walker (resign). This fits the mold of how the Patriots sign FA's. I guess you would feel better if Dan Snyder ran this joint. They sign all kinds of big-name FA's, and go thru coaches every year or two.
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Old 12-27-2004   #28
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A significant change would be a star player that can change a team. TO or Kearse for example. Or bring in a new Offensive Coordinator. One that has a proven record, not a record of failure. Replacing ineffective offensive linemen with equally ineffective offensive linemen is no improvement. Not to mention that the Texans make so many elementary mistakes. Fundamentals is the primary responsibility of the coaching staff on any level and that is supposed to be the main focus of the Capers system. But yet they fail miserably at it. The improvement in the Texans record this season only reflects the impact of the draft, nothing further. For you to imply that there is something wrong with my attitude of change it now because you will have to change it at some point anyway, is very unintelligent. Keep in mind, outside of the Jags, what good teams did we beat this season? None, and the Jags are still in doubt. They can still finish without a winning record. There is no real improvement to show after three seasons. Improvement is the playoffs. Anything less at this point is failure. It's time to make real changes. Three years is more than enough time to see that the system doesn't work.
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Old 12-27-2004   #29
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Originally Posted by Harry Biped
...But when the Texans win, everybody forgets that they still have big issues with the offense, and like it or not those problems don't go away just because you won one game basically only with the defense.
I don't think everyone just forgets that the Texans are having problems on offense. And I'm not Chris Palmer's biggest fan. But, I can't fault him for the 2nd half playcalling that led to zero offensive points. Carr threw seven 2nd half passes, was sacked 3 times, and ran after being forced to by the pass rush 4 times. So for every pass Carr got off in the 2nd half, he was either sacked or forced to run. I'm very happy that Palmer didn't call additional pass plays with that kind of ratio.

The Texans have problems in pass protection. They're 25th in sacks allowed with 43 (All Carr). Only Michael Vick has been sacked more times with 44. This has to be addressed in the offseason, but for now I'd like to get through this last game with Carr intact. I'm hoping Palmer sticks with the run oriented attack against Cleveland and let the defense win another one.
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Old 12-27-2004   #30
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Originally Posted by Harry Biped
A significant change would be a star player that can change a team. TO or Kearse for example.
Well let's see they drafted AJ, a faster TO and aggressively (too much so for some folks) moved up in the draft to get a guy they hope will be Kevin Greene--seems to fit the bill for what you are asking for since Kearse would be an OLB for the Texans, plus they went out and got the top DT available in FA.

Why am I responding?--you proved yourself completely unrealistic with this definition of improvement in year 3:

Quote:
Improvement is the playoffs. Anything less at this point is failure.
They told you before you their 1st draft and before you made your investment that they were building for long term success not flash in the pan--guess you missed that--so it is your fault for buying the tickets in the 1st place.

And yes you have the right to criticize the team but running around acting like a hyperbolic chicken little is just silly.
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Old 12-27-2004   #31
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I don't think everyone just forgets that the Texans are having problems on offense. And I'm not Chris Palmer's biggest fan. But, I can't fault him for the 2nd half playcalling that led to zero offensive points. Carr threw seven 2nd half passes, was sacked 3 times, and ran after being forced to by the pass rush 4 times. So for every pass Carr got off in the 2nd half, he was either sacked or forced to run. I'm very happy that Palmer didn't call additional pass plays with that kind of ratio.

The Texans have problems in pass protection. They're 25th in sacks allowed with 43 (All Carr). Only Michael Vick has been sacked more times with 44. This has to be addressed in the offseason, but for now I'd like to get through this last game with Carr intact. I'm hoping Palmer sticks with the run oriented attack against Cleveland and let the defense win another one.
I agree that more pass attempts would have been a mistake because of the lack of protection. Let's also remember that the Texans were eating up the clock like crazy in the 4th quarter. I kept watching the clock and thinking it was unrealistic how fast they were burning it off. They took the ball in the middle of the 4th and burned over 6 minutes off the clock on one drive by using the run, run, pass method before having a kick blocked and giving the ball back with less than 3 minutes left and a 2 touchdown lead. That is how you hold a lead. If you can run it down their throats, do it. Yes, it's predictable as can be and I would hate that kind of playcalling if we were down by a touchdown, but we weren't. Besides, like everyone is saying, we have no real pass protection.

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Old 12-28-2004   #32
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makes me wonder why Harry Buys a computer. His "investment" is outdated within a couple of years.

in all reality doesit matter if a team makes the playoffs?? Only one thing matters and that is a superbowl ring... whoever gets the ring is the winner.. all others can be considered losers and didn't get a good return in their "investment".


It iritates me that people have a chance to get season tickets and then gripe about things.. I don't live in Houston, I don't get that chance. and on top of that , there are people that can't afford season tickets, but we have people griping about a team that didn't make the playoffs, but have steadily improved year after year .
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Old 12-28-2004   #33
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Just a few people, Wolf. There's nothing wrong with expecting improvement - but I think some will always see the glass half empty unless it is filled immediately.
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Old 12-28-2004   #34
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To all...good thread, solid arguments with a noticable lack of "flame posts".

Ok, on to my 2 cents. I don't have a problem with the approach of strong D and solid running as the formula to win games, but I think that Capers and Palmer might have more in mind that just that. I do think that we would see more of a spread/play-action oriented offense if the O-line would consistently show up. Any offensive system is predicated on having the time to allow the plays to develop, either runs or passes. For every 10 or 15 yard burst that DD has in a game he has 2-3 negative runs because someone is making contact with him behind the line.

If you look at our offensive system it is not all that different than the Colts (lot of single back, and 3 wide sets...most big plays coming off play-action). The obviously Manning is a huge factor in their offense since he calls most of his own plays, but the system is not that different than what Palmer runs. You can make a good case that if you swapped the starting 5 O-lineman for our team with the colts we might have added a 2-3 wins and the Colts might have dropped 1-2 more. I think with the correct personnel, ie. better collective O-line, that our system will be fine. I am not a big Palmer fan and in fact I think if things are noticably improved next season he should probably go. That being said you are limited in your play calling by your personnel...I think he is in the position of sometimes calling play packages that will "hurt us the least" instead of "hurt them the most". Let's try and go a couple top O-line guys in the draft and free agency to bolster the offense then make a judgment on the playcalling.

Quickie on the defensive side of the ball...I read the recent articles on the 3-4 and why it works for some teams and not others as well as all the discussions on this board. I am a big fan of the 3-4 but the biggest issue with it is the significant committment to the type of personnel you need to have to make it work. I think we need no kidding scary guy in the front 7 that the other teams must account for week in and week out. I don't see anyone in the line up that is that guy or could even develop in to that guy. I think that Babin will be a quality player but hoping he turns into Kevin Greene is a big hope, I would actually like to see us pick up a high quality OLB in FA or the draft...not just try to find a good 'tweener guy. If Derrick Johnson falls to us in the draft (fat chance) we need to be all over him...if we insist on another 'tweener then Dan Cody is looking like a much better prospect than Babin was last year.
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Old 12-28-2004   #35
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Harry Biped = Ibar Harry

Smashmouth football. I love it. Here we go guys, we are gonna run the ball down your throat, and they still can't stop it. What's not to like about that. What I can't believe is people (the two Harry's, Ibar and Biped) ask the question, "why draft people like David Carr and AJ, if all we're gonna do is run the ball?" Please get a clue, and hopefully it won't be to big of an investment...
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Old 12-28-2004   #36
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Harry Bi maybe you should just not talk anymore, all you do is talk down on this team, and half of what you say makes no sence and the other half is just dummb ! i dont see how ya can be a fan with all the complaints you have ......
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Old 12-28-2004   #37
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not just try to find a good 'tweener guy. If Derrick Johnson falls to us in the draft (fat chance) we need to be all over him...if we insist on another 'tweener then Dan Cody is looking like a much better prospect than Babin was last year.
"Tweeners" are our OLB's. You have to be at around 250 to hold up to Offensive Guards and Tackles. Smaller (230 pound guys and the like) have a hard time sheding blocks and 3-4 OLB's take on linemen much more than 4-3 OLB's do because they have two tackles and two ends covering the linemen. We just have 3 Tackle-types covering 5 guys so you have to have more size in your OLB's in this system. We will probably draft one 'tweener' every single year just like the Steelers do. DJ would be an inside linebacker in our system.
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Old 12-28-2004   #38
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Lets be realistic here. I made observations that were based in reality and truth and expressed them honestly and without casting insults. The rest of you are the ones who have resorted to that and chosen to dance around the real issues that the team has. I have every right to express my opinions and the truth, regardless of whether you like it or not. It is a losers mentality to EVER accept failure and that is what the Texans have presented us with so far. Does that mean that I don't like or support the Texans? No. It means that I care about them enough to rock the boat and speak the truth. The worst kind of fan is one that accepts an inferior product and does nothing about it. Look at the LA Clippers. That teams makes plenty of money and never wins, so the owner has no motivation to improve the team, so he doesn't. Since the fans still show up at the games, they get what they deserve. Continuing to support failure only leads to more failure. Those of you who believe that the Texans are on the right track will be disappointed in a year or two and probably jump ship, just like you did with the Oilers.

For Wolf, consider this, I don't live in Houston either. For the first 2 seasons I lived in San Antonio and made the trip in both the regular season and the preseason every time but 3 games. For the past season I have been unemployed and bought my season tickets before I lost my job. I still live out of town and it costs me money to go, but I have not missed one game. From my perspective I have more than lived up to my obligations to the team or any of its fans including any nitwit on this board who believes that they have the right to tell when and what I should post. I operate within the rules of the board, so I have every bit as much right to post here as you guys do. The difference is that so many of you obviously know little to nothing about the actual GAME of football and are more interested in the cosmetic side of it. If the Texans win one game then everyone is far too happy to forget that the little success of the team has had, does not come close to matching the talent level of the Texans. This team has not played near the level of what it is capable of playing and win or lose this week, it is not out of place to suggest that things should change. Especially in a thread that is specifically created to ask that very question.
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Old 12-28-2004   #39
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It is a losers mentality to EVER accept failure and that is what the Texans have presented us with so far.
I agree with that statement in general, just not with the Texans and their organization. Do you consider the Texans a failure because they are not in the playoffs? I'm sorry that I disagree with that, but I do. I respect the organization for the course that they are on. I respect the coaches for staying that course, and I respect the players for the effort they give. OK, now let's look at the 2004 Texans. They are currently 7-8, with a good chance of finishing the season at 8-8. I think most of us would have taken 7-9 or 8-8 from the start. In fact that's exactly what I predicted. Sure with a break here or there we could have even a better record, or with a bad bounce here or there we could have a worse record. You can throw that all out the window because it can be said for any NFL team after any NFL season. Our offense has improved, and with better o-line play the sky's the limit. Our D has really stepped it up. We have 2 rookies on the defensive side of the ball that will be playmakers for years to come. We have a second year receiver selected to the pro bowl, with many more to follow I'm sure. We have a QB that will turn out to be a very good one in the years to come. We have a very good running back. We have a class owner, class coaches, and class players. I'm sorry, but I happen to like Dom Capers' style of football and given the pieces of the puzzle that it takes to complete Capers' style I think we will be a force to be reckoned with. I guarantee you that if I had the time and money for season tickets, I would feel like I have definately gotten my money's worth.
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Old 12-28-2004   #40
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The crux of my issue, and the subject of this thread, is with Palmer not Capers, although Capers has to be the one to see what is not working and make a change. And yes, a season that is not a winning season is a failure. The job of the players and coaches is to win, not to just compete and look good doing so. That is the mentaily that seperates teams like the Yankees from the rest. I want my team to expect to be the best every year, be it their 3rd or 30th seaon in exsistance, and for them to be upset enough to fix problems when they are not the best. That is not out of line or unreasonable.
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