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Old 09-22-2008   #21
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

I don't think Rosenfels is any better than Commander Cody Carelson and I'm comming to the conclusion that Schaub isn't any better than Rosenfels.....um, so that means we really don't have a starting QB, just a couple of good reserves.
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Old 09-22-2008   #22
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
I don't think Rosenfels is any better than Commander Cody Carelson and I'm comming to the conclusion that Schaub isn't any better than Rosenfels.....um, so that means we really don't have a starting QB, just a couple of good reserves.
At this point in time....I agree.

It frustrates the hell out of me watching Cutler and the Broncos play.....THE RIGHT WAY!!

If only that team had a defense
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Old 09-22-2008   #23
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

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people used to say the same about tony banks...the backup qb is always the more popular of the 2 unless you're 1 of the what 5-6 teams who are set with thier franchise guy.

I have heard this little snappy comeback, and it makes NO sense.

People were tired of Drew Beldsoe, too, and a little boy named Tom Brady took over when Drew was injured. You think your argument is so valuable as to make it an absolute? "Well, everyone always falls in the love with the backup when the starter isn't doing well."

Dang straight they do. Know why? Because an anointed "starting" QB can screw up for infinity and still keep his job. Meanwhile, there's a guy on the sideline who wants to play FOOTBALL. And he is watching the starter. He is seeing what the starter is doing wrong. He wants HIS chance.

And news flash: Sage is better than banks. Sage pretty much rescued last year's season, btw. Gloss it over all you want, but the backup QB on this team has been pushing for the job since midway through last season.

Kerry Collins looked Ok yesterday, but I guess Titans fans weren't hoping for VY's benching for awhile, right? Wrong.

This is about Texans fans not wanting to feel that people think we were stupid for the Schaub trade. And guess what? We DO look stupid. Atlanta isn't missing a beat with Matt Schaub, and in fact they look pretty doggone good with a rookie in there.

face it, guys: We gambled on Schaub and it's a bust. It cost us TWO 2nd rounders that would probably be starting on two spots on our team. So figure out exactly where we'd need those guys right now...well, we can take our pick since this team IS devoid of enough "starting" talent in order to compete with the other teams.

This season was ripe for the picking, IMO, in our division. We could have beaten Titans yesterday, but bad game management by Kubiak coupled with awful QB play from Schaub sealed our fate. Even Richard Smith looked like he was running laps around Kubiak's offense yesterday.

I am sick and tired of the Sage bashing. With the way Schaub is playing, and HAS played since midway of last season, there's really no justification for the amount of blind support that Schaub has been given. None.

LOL. I just keep watching these games, wondering when the Schaub balloon is finally going to burst. People here said he needed a year under his belt, he'd get conditioned over the off-season, and he'd look better and he'd be able to carry a full load. He looks worse through these two games than at any other point last year. It's a REGRESSION, folks.

Oh, and I also said over the summer THIS: Texans fans on this board are going to be screaming for another QB in the off-season of 2009...we're going to see people begging for a QB draftee like we saw people begging for an OL draftee for so long.

Slaton might cut it at RB if he keeps this up. But the QB position, even with Sage in there, is not a good place to be in. Here's another of my lines that people will recognize: "We have TWO backup QBs who are trying to become the starter for this team. We don't have a 'starter' here. Do we?"

Go Texans! I ain't leaving. Too much invested to drop out now. But I think our HC could do a lot better than using the standard behavior of propping up bad QB play for extended periods of time. He needs to cherish his job more, and get going on trying different QBs out for the gig.

The only good news that happened Sunday is that Slaton might actually be able to hack it at RB. That SPEED was hellish yesterday, and that's something DD never had. So maybe that makes it easier for Kubiak to look at making a tweak at QB. He's got RB solidified a little bit now.
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Old 09-22-2008   #24
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

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Did you watch the Dallas vs GB game last night ?


The difference between Schaub and the QB's from that game is mobility and the ability do do something when protection breaks down...

When has Schaub EVER done that ? When has Schaub ever performed against a tough, physical defense?

Every QB gets hit and gets licks put on them...
No, I didn't watch the Dallas vs. GB game cuz my power is still out- thanks for rubbing it in!

I've been known to watch a game or two, even other football teams and understand that other QB's get hit too. But that doesn't make me feel any good when OURS does. I completely understand when people have issues about his mobility or if protection breaks down...

I'm just bringing up a very real situation that disappoints me that's completely unrelated to that. It's when there is a designed play for Schaub to stay in the pocket and deliver the throw. The protection holds long enough for Schaub to get rid of the ball for a completion, but a second later he gets hit HARD. Again, it's not that a DE gets his hand on his jersey and it's just a rushed throw, or an arm tackle... it's when the defender completely runs by Winston... or Brisiel... or Myers and hits Schaub right in the chest running full speed and lands on top of him.

Schaub has been hit like that more in one game than our entire DL has deliverd during the whole season.
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Old 09-22-2008   #25
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

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No, I didn't watch the Dallas vs. GB game cuz my power is still out- thanks for rubbing it in!

I've been known to watch a game or two, even other football teams and understand that other QB's get hit too. But that doesn't make me feel any good when OURS does. I completely understand when people have issues about his mobility or if protection breaks down...

I'm just bringing up a very real situation that disappoints me that's completely unrelated to that. It's when there is a designed play for Schaub to stay in the pocket and deliver the throw. The protection holds long enough for Schaub to get rid of the ball for a completion, but a second later he gets hit HARD. Again, it's not that a DE gets his hand on his jersey and it's just a rushed throw, or an arm tackle... it's when the defender completely runs by Winston... or Brisiel... or Myers and hits Schaub right in the chest running full speed and lands on top of him.

Schaub has been hit like that more in one game than our entire DL has deliverd during the whole season.

You're right...

Our o-line whiffs a lot...

I just think if Schaub were a little more athletic some of those hits wouldn't be so bad...or as often...

But you're definitely right...
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Old 09-22-2008   #26
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
I don't think Rosenfels is any better than Commander Cody Carelson and I'm comming to the conclusion that Schaub isn't any better than Rosenfels.....um, so that means we really don't have a starting QB, just a couple of good reserves.


Which brings me to my statement from this past summer: "We have TWO backup QBs who are trying to become the starter for this team." Just because we spent two draft picks on Schaub, and just because it's good practice to "name" a starter for the sake of leadership of the offense...doesn't mean it's translating to success for the Texans. There should not be a sacred cow in terms of propping up the starter and letting him stay the starter unless he's hurt. The only sacred cow should be WINNING no matter who is doing it.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that Sage last season looked a little more sharp than Schaub has?

Couldn't you see how the rest of the offense seemed to have more pep in their step with Sage in there? Body language says a lot, IMO.

Did AJ, yesterday, look like he supports Schaub? Man, AJ looks like he's been scanning the NFL's classified ads. He had that trot going on out there, the "I could care" trot.

This is a pretty serious meltdown we're seeing.
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Old 09-22-2008   #27
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

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But then I started noticing that he began dropping off. We still looked OK, but I noticed Schaub was slowing down. The legs looked sluggish, the footwork was gone, and he was getting touched a lot more. And he was making questionable passes.
I've been a big Schaub supporter (although not vocally on these boards) but I really think you might have hit the nail on the head there. The last two games and really since about the first two games last year if you take a step back and look at him Schaub really does look a step or two slow. Watching a guy like Peyton work against the Jags yesterday you can really see how fast his dropback is and how great his footwork is. Schaub looks like hes working in quicksand compared to Peyton who drops back with a real purpose. Also, It didn't happen so much in this game but has anyone else noticed how Schaub, when he gets some pressure in his face, will do that little Jeff Garcia move where he kinda jumps up on one foot while slightly moving backward and then throw a pass? Works for Jeff, not so much for Matt.

Anyway last year I think Matt was sacked something like 16 times and Sage maybe 5-6ish and after watching the last few games and the preseason (minus New Orleans) it looks like that is not a fluke stat. Sage, with all his faults, is absolutely fearless in the pocket. Ive seen him stand in there with guys literally hanging on him and he makes a throw like there's nothing wrong. I don't know if hes the answer because he does tend to take some really bad risks at times but right now I think hes gotta be given a shot. Even if Matt stays the starter and plays a nice game or two I'm really going to be skeptical because he has just looked so much like Carr lately I don't think I can let it go.

On the bright side its nice to see a semblance of what a true ZBS looks like. I expect the improvement there to continue, starting with less negative and zero yardage plays and we should have a nice little running game by the end of the season that we can really build on in the future.
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Old 09-22-2008   #28
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

The problem is that the Texans as an organization are behind the curve for making decisions at NFL speed.

Look at Matt Leinart and Vince Young right now. If you don't produce on most NFL rosters, then you hold a clipboard and get an education.

The Texans are afraid that they'll hurt Schaub's feelings if they bench him. (See Carr, David.) The result is a QB that has the support of the organization, but disdain from the fans.

Groundhog Day again.
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Old 09-22-2008   #29
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

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The problem is that the Texans as an organization are behind the curve for making decisions at NFL speed.

Look at Matt Leinart and Vince Young right now. If you don't produce on most NFL rosters, then you hold a clipboard and get an education.

The Texans are afraid that they'll hurt Schaub's feelings if they bench him. (See Carr, David.) The result is a QB that has the support of the organization, but disdain from the fans.

Groundhog Day again.
They are too worried about marketing.
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Old 09-22-2008   #30
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

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I have heard this little snappy comeback, and it makes NO sense. It makes perfect sense b/c it's for the most part true.

People were tired of Drew Beldsoe, too, and a little boy named Tom Brady took over when Drew was injured. You think your argument is so valuable as to make it an absolute? "Well, everyone always falls in the love with the backup when the starter isn't doing well."

favre/brady are exceptions to the rule & many cases when that type of success happens, the back up is usually already understood as the air apparent... we don't have that guy here & sage has been in the league for years...compare the number of times a situation like favre/brady arose & it worked out vs. teams forced to switch qb's mid season & being successful.....yeah it's ridiculously one-sided. To sum it, how many people in carolina clamored for Carr over moore last year until they saw him play? Quinn over Anderson? even Ferotte over jackson at this point? It's not absolute, but it damn near is.

Dang straight they do. Know why? Because an anointed "starting" QB can screw up for infinity and still keep his job. Meanwhile, there's a guy on the sideline who wants to play FOOTBALL. And he is watching the starter. He is seeing what the starter is doing wrong. He wants HIS chance.

Sure they want to play but that doesn't have any bearing on whether or not he is or will be better than the starter. Furthermore, this is why teams usually carry veteran backups, b/c they are guys who know their roles as back ups. There's a reason teams will seek a vinny testaverde mid-season even though he's 40,324 yrs. old. it's b/c he's a known commodity & they know he can be a patch for a team at the qb spot.

And news flash: Sage is better than banks. Sage pretty much rescued last year's season, btw. Gloss it over all you want, but the backup QB on this team has been pushing for the job since midway through last season.

Sage might be better, but i believe it's a very negligle advantage in his favor over what banks was....i.e. not enough to make a huge difference on our team. you forget, banks was decent in STL & then Fairly marginal in Baltimore. outside of a couple of starts for us at the end of last season, where he looked OK, what has sage done to think that he's so much better than banks at this point? nothing. again, there is a reason the guy has been a back up his whole career.

Kerry Collins looked Ok yesterday, but I guess Titans fans weren't hoping for VY's benching for awhile, right? Wrong.
Ok now you just look stupid. Collins is a very accomplished vet who has led a team to the superbowl. He himself has acknowledged that he's at the end so this "waiting for his chance to play is garbage. Plus, if VY wasn't hurt, he'd be starting. Lastly, if you go to the titans MB there are some that were clamoring for Collins, b/c of his veteran prescence.

This is about Texans fans not wanting to feel that people think we were stupid for the Schaub trade. And guess what? We DO look stupid. Atlanta isn't missing a beat with Matt Schaub, and in fact they look pretty doggone good with a rookie in there.

I doubt you were saying this after the carolina game last year when schaub looked pretty good...exactly 2 games into the season just like we are now. We made a move, it doesn't look good now, but neither did the mario pick after his rookie year. In any case, it still doesn't mean we win either of these 2 games if sage was starting at qb b/c last i checked he doesn't play defense.

face it, guys: We gambled on Schaub and it's a bust. It cost us TWO 2nd rounders that would probably be starting on two spots on our team. So figure out exactly where we'd need those guys right now...well, we can take our pick since this team IS devoid of enough "starting" talent in order to compete with the other teams.

True

This season was ripe for the picking, IMO, in our division. We could have beaten Titans yesterday, but bad game management by Kubiak coupled with awful QB play from Schaub sealed our fate. Even Richard Smith looked like he was running laps around Kubiak's offense yesterday.

i don't know what game you were watching yesterday, but Richard Smith's defense looked like the same ol'. no pass rush, 400 yd. cb cushions etc. he did nothing that says he knows what the hell he was doing.

I am sick and tired of the Sage bashing. With the way Schaub is playing, and HAS played since midway of last season, there's really no justification for the amount of blind support that Schaub has been given. None.

LOL. I just keep watching these games, wondering when the Schaub balloon is finally going to burst. People here said he needed a year under his belt, he'd get conditioned over the off-season, and he'd look better and he'd be able to carry a full load. He looks worse through these two games than at any other point last year. It's a REGRESSION, folks.

Oh, and I also said over the summer THIS: Texans fans on this board are going to be screaming for another QB in the off-season of 2009...we're going to see people begging for a QB draftee like we saw people begging for an OL draftee for so long.

Slaton might cut it at RB if he keeps this up. But the QB position, even with Sage in there, is not a good place to be in. Here's another of my lines that people will recognize: "We have TWO backup QBs who are trying to become the starter for this team. We don't have a 'starter' here. Do we?"

Go Texans! I ain't leaving. Too much invested to drop out now. But I think our HC could do a lot better than using the standard behavior of propping up bad QB play for extended periods of time. He needs to cherish his job more, and get going on trying different QBs out for the gig.

The only good news that happened Sunday is that Slaton might actually be able to hack it at RB. That SPEED was hellish yesterday, and that's something DD never had. So maybe that makes it easier for Kubiak to look at making a tweak at QB. He's got RB solidified a little bit now.
You said all this about schaub & then say we're solidfied at RB with slaton after 1 good game. that's something that doesn't make much sense.
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Old 09-22-2008   #31
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

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Originally Posted by Polo View Post
Did you watch the Dallas vs GB game last night ?


The difference between Schaub and the QB's from that game is mobility and the ability do do something when protection breaks down...

When has Schaub EVER done that ? When has Schaub ever performed against a tough, physical defense?

Every QB gets hit and gets licks put on them...
Actually, Aaron Rodgers looked okay until the game got away from Green Bay and they were forced to get more pass oriented. Then he started getting killed, holding the ball too long, footwork breaking down.

Romo looked shaky at times, so wonky that at some point Cowboy fans must have been hoping he would throw the ball less and that they would keep running it. He does better with bombs than when in the red zone and throwing into traffic.

Both of those teams have pretty effective running games when the games are close. The Cowboys use their running game to get a lead and then allow their defense to pin their ears back more.
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Old 09-22-2008   #32
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Actually, Aaron Rodgers looked okay until the game got away from Green Bay and they were forced to get more pass oriented. Then he started getting killed, holding the ball too long, footwork breaking down.

Romo looked shaky at times, so wonky that at some point Cowboy fans must have been hoping he would throw the ball less and that they would keep running it.
At no point in time did Romo or Rodgers look as inept as Schaub.

Evaluating the whole game and not just when they started passing a lot, both of those QB's (and most good QB's around the leauge) can make plays when things break down around them...

How often has Schaub done that?

And IMO, Rodgers looked pretty good all night...Plenty of times he should have been sacked but craftily avoided it...No he didn't always make the best throws but 1) the Cowboys had good coverage on the recievers 2) He atleast gave his team a chance with his ability to make plays when things broke down

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He does better with bombs than when in the red zone and throwing into traffic.
I'd venture to say most QB's do.

Schaub isn't the self sacking fool David Carr was, but he doesn't play much better under pressure. At this point it's only been a slight upgrade.

Last edited by Polo; 09-22-2008 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 09-22-2008   #33
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

Well here are some good plays. Nice to watch in these tough football times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h3aanskqcY
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Old 09-22-2008   #34
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

We got out-coached and out-played yesterday.

I'm not particular happy with Schaub, but he did nail some WRs who just failed at their jobs. AJ and Walter's endzone catches would have changed the entire nature of this discussion.

But Schaub does not look like the long-term solution. Too many times I was having flashbacks of no. 8. He's not a QB that can overcome weak blocking and failed protection. And he's obviously not a QB that demands better from his skill positions. He should have been in AJ's face after that second drop. He should have been screaming mad. But he just looked lost, overwhelmed, and really like he didn't want to be there. We've seen the look before. It's what "nice guys" do when the chips are down.

I'm not going to pin this loss on one man, though. Kubiak just blew some calls. The coaching staff seems lost and unable to prepare this team. Our players, with few exceptions, lack the pride needed to refuse to lose. It's another pathetic product from this organization. And I have a hard time keeping my passion as a fanatic for this team. They are consistent in one area, that is under-achieving and looking lousy week in/week out. It was a tough loss to watch, yet again.

We've still got 14 games left, though. So let's hope they nut up and show us what they can really be about. Otherwise, it's going to be another long, crappy season.

p.s. I'm just venting and have no desire to argue about things. It's all perspective at the end of the day. I was just having deja vu too many times to count during the game yesterday.
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Old 09-22-2008   #35
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
We got out-coached and out-played yesterday.

I'm not particular happy with Schaub, but he did nail some WRs who just failed at their jobs. AJ and Walter's endzone catches would have changed the entire nature of this discussion.

But Schaub does not look like the long-term solution. Too many times I was having flashbacks of no. 8. He's not a QB that can overcome weak blocking and failed protection. And he's obviously not a QB that demands better from his skill positions. He should have been in AJ's face after that second drop. He should have been screaming mad. But he just looked lost, overwhelmed, and really like he didn't want to be there. We've seen the look before. It's what "nice guys" do when the chips are down.

I'm not going to pin this loss on one man, though. Kubiak just blew some calls. The coaching staff seems lost and unable to prepare this team. Our players, with few exceptions, lack the pride needed to refuse to lose. It's another pathetic product from this organization. And I have a hard time keeping my passion as a fanatic for this team. They are consistent in one area, that is under-achieving and looking lousy week in/week out. It was a tough loss to watch, yet again.

We've still got 14 games left, though. So let's hope they nut up and show us what they can really be about. Otherwise, it's going to be another long, crappy season.

p.s. I'm just venting and have no desire to argue about things. It's all perspective at the end of the day. I was just having deja vu too many times to count during the game yesterday.

this is what everyone should be concerned with here. Too many times during his tenure have our players just looked like they didn't know what was going on . taking too long to adjust, questionable playcalling are starting to become too commonplace with this regime.
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Old 09-22-2008   #36
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

Schaub isn't the self sacking fool David Carr was, but he doesn't play much better under pressure. At this point it's only been a slight upgrade.
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Old 09-22-2008   #37
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

Hmm thats why i was thinking over a good night sleep we need to stick with Matt till the ship sinks if we go 0-8 then yes the ship has sunk and we need to bring in sage


That should be the gameplan and iam sticking to that
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Old 09-22-2008   #38
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

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Originally Posted by Jackie Chiles View Post
I've been a big Schaub supporter (although not vocally on these boards) but I really think you might have hit the nail on the head there. The last two games and really since about the first two games last year if you take a step back and look at him Schaub really does look a step or two slow. Watching a guy like Peyton work against the Jags yesterday you can really see how fast his dropback is and how great his footwork is. Schaub looks like hes working in quicksand compared to Peyton who drops back with a real purpose.
Well, at least you are able to be objective about it.

Others here are still doing the ostrich thang (sticking their head in the ground) and act like it's complete foolishness to try another QB.

I'm all about winning. You guys want to STOP being a loser? Then quit acting like we need 3-5 years to reallllly evaluate ANYBODY. First year, Schaub got dinged up...OK, let him another year at it. Well, two games into the season and he looks as bad as he did when he got dinged up.

I don't care about being right all the time (because I'm not) but I stuck with David Carr long enough, defending him and then finally realizing in the first few weeks of his last season that I was definitely wrong about my support for him. I've just got ZERO use for a person who thinks we should stick with an "anointed QB" just because he's "the starter." Been there, done that.

Big friggin' whoop if Matt Schaub and the cost of two 2nd rounders equals failure for the deal. I know that a HC has to be careful to NOT yank the starter too quickly, otherwise people feel like each mistake they make is going to send them to Siberia. I "get" that. So maybe Schaub gets the Jags game to regain "it."

But folks, "it" seems to have been slowly wearing off since week 1, 2 and 3 of last season for Matt Schaub. Just don't think the guy is physically talented enough to withstand the rigors of the position. Nice guy and all, but the marketing aspect of this team is killing us in the standings.
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Old 09-22-2008   #39
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

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Originally Posted by Norg View Post
Hmm thats why i was thinking over a good night sleep we need to stick with Matt till the ship sinks if we go 0-8 then yes the ship has sunk and we need to bring in sage


That should be the gameplan and iam sticking to that
0-8? Seriously?

Did I miss the sarcasm smiley somewhere in your post?

0-8 means Kubiak's job, to me. And at this point, I'm beginning to think like Second Honeymoon: Go get The Chin. Now.

If Kubiak can't pull himself away from a QB gamble that busted...then this team is sunk. And the captain goes down with the ship, IMO.
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Old 09-22-2008   #40
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Default Re: If Kubiak decides to start Sage...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
Well, at least you are able to be objective about it.

Others here are still doing the ostrich thang (sticking their head in the ground) and act like it's complete foolishness to try another QB.

I'm all about winning. You guys want to STOP being a loser? Then quit acting like we need 3-5 years to reallllly evaluate ANYBODY. First year, Schaub got dinged up...OK, let him another year at it. Well, two games into the season and he looks as bad as he did when he got dinged up.

I don't care about being right all the time (because I'm not) but I stuck with David Carr long enough, defending him and then finally realizing in the first few weeks of his last season that I was definitely wrong about my support for him. I've just got ZERO use for a person who thinks we should stick with an "anointed QB" just because he's "the starter." Been there, done that.

Big friggin' whoop if Matt Schaub and the cost of two 2nd rounders equals failure for the deal. I know that a HC has to be careful to NOT yank the starter too quickly, otherwise people feel like each mistake they make is going to send them to Siberia. I "get" that. So maybe Schaub gets the Jags game to regain "it."

But folks, "it" seems to have been slowly wearing off since week 1, 2 and 3 of last season for Matt Schaub. Just don't think the guy is physically talented enough to withstand the rigors of the position. Nice guy and all, but the marketing aspect of this team is killing us in the standings.
Me personally, I am not afraid to try another QB. And I don't think Kubiak is doing squat due to marketing reasons. I really believe that as a QB he knows that all QBs have ups and downs especially when other parts of the offense are stinking too.

I didn't buy this whole Texans in the playoffs bit, or the whole Richard Justice, "finally this is a team that doesn't have any glaring weaknesses." If you still are working out the details of your line play and playing musical chairs at running back and your #1 WR/your best playmaker is coming off of surgery and a separate injury, you have a bunch of issues that you are going to have to work out.

And I saw this schedule coming out with all these fat defensive lines on the road and the Texans mostly reconstructed offense ZBS line and pretty much knew that the start of this season could be ugly. In combination with the Texans being an awful road team. And that by the time October rolled around, they would be lucky for fans not to be totally disgusted.

This is an offense that has looked better with worse running back play. Either Schaub is going to get his head on straight, or Kubiak will replace him. But I think Kubiak is going to make sure that he gives Schaub a better chance to succeed because he has seen better play from him.

This is a team that has needed some breaks. And have received few.
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