Death to Google Ads! Texans Talk Tip Jar! 🍺😎👍
Thanks for your support!
Defense TOO TALENTED to be THIS BAD? . . . umm NO!
- Thread starter Marcus
- Start date
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
I keep reading this comment . . .
"This defense is way too talented to be this bad" . . .
Other than Mario, Demeco, and Amobi . . . who?
Other teams don't have allstars at every position........our sucky defense goes beyond just the "lack of talent". Our scheme just plain sucks. Teams usually play vanilla defense in preseason, we play it all year.
rollinstone18
let it bleed
Our scheme is vanilla but this is just a beatdown.
That's because the corners aren't good enough to play tight coverage. Like I said, where's all this talent that you're bragging about?
eriadoc
Texan-American
Rewind that Ward TD from just now. Watch the initial defensive configuration. Ward is lined up on a LB. As a QB, I'd take that matchup all day. The coverage up top left a hole in the middle that Ward went to as soon as he got by Diles. Tell me how that's not a scheme problem again?
I hear what you're saying about talent, but it's both. Smith sucks.
I hear what you're saying about talent, but it's both. Smith sucks.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I keep reading this comment . . .
"This defense is way too talented to be this bad" . . .
Other than Mario, Demeco, and Amobi . . . who?
You want other stars? I can't give them to you because they aren't there. Tell me how many "stars" the Steelers have on their defense? How many do the Colts have? Lets get a little closer to our level. How many do the Broncos have?
When someone says this defense is too talented to be this bad they aren't saying that we've got 11 stars starting on that side of the ball. They're saying we have NFL caliber players at every position and that they should be more competitive than the mess we're seeing today in Pittsburgh.
Do you recall the Bum Phillips quote about Don Shula where he said:
Bum Phillips said:
Well, if he'd been talking about Richard Smith it would have gone something like "He can take his'n and you can run and pass all over em' or he can take your'n and make em' look just as bad".
So you think that just because players made the final 53, that makes them NFL caliber? You're definition of "NFL caliber" might just be a little different than mine. You can take any scheme you want, and it's still not going to make a DL opposite Mario all of a sudden get pressure on the QB, it's not going to make Morlon Greenwood any faster than the slug that he is now, and it's not going to make Reeves any better a CB. You have this idea that just waving your "Fire Richard Smith" wand will be a big cure all. It's just not that simple.
At some point you have to consider coaching. If not, Capers would still be here because he had even less talent than this team - maybe.
I think there is plenty of blame to go around. I wasn't feeling confident for the Texans going into the season anyway, so I'm not just reacting to this pasting by a good team.
eriadoc
Texan-American
You can point to individual player failures in today's loss - missed tackles, bad angles, too soft in coverage, etc. You can also look at coaching deficiencies - LBs on WRs and failure to react to the Steelers ripping apart your zones, for instance. I actually am not too dissatisfied with the pressure today, but the Steelers just beat it.
Regardless, we have both a talent deficiency and a coaching deficiency.
Regardless, we have both a talent deficiency and a coaching deficiency.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Several years ago Kubiak said that he did not put his team in a position to win the game. This was another one. They were completely outcoached in this one and it was only surpassed by the defences inablility to tackle, and Schaub's terrible decisions as the low points in the game. I still think we are second in this division but at some point we need to replace Richard Smith.
I keep reading this comment . . .
"This defense is way too talented to be this bad" . . .
Other than Mario, Demeco, and Amobi . . . who?
don't count Amobi.
he's not on the stat sheet
Even Zgonina had two tackles
Amobi didn't even get an assist
Just to be clear, I have no illusions that Smith will keep his job if the defense keeps laying an egg like they did today. That's just the way the NFL works. You fire coaches, you waive players.
But I'll be shocked if Smith is fired before the end of the season, no matter how bad it gets. I'll put serious money down on that one. That's just not how the Front Office works, nor should it.
But I'll be shocked if Smith is fired before the end of the season, no matter how bad it gets. I'll put serious money down on that one. That's just not how the Front Office works, nor should it.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
You could give that man the 85' Bears and he'd have them playing 9 yards off of receivers and getting "moderate" pressure out of their front four but whatever man. You simply refuse to buy into the idea that some coaches are > others for whatever reason. Suit yourself. We've all seen defenses that are for the most part unchanged go from being crap to caviar under the tutelage of a quality defensive coordinator. This is not some ****ing Madden NFL thought process I'm talking about. We've seen teams completely overhaul their personnel in less than three years. We've seen THIS TEAM do it for the most part.
The leftover pieces are not the worst players in the NFL (you would assume those were the guys sent packing right?) and the guys brought in are an upgrade over what we had here before Kubiak and Co. showed up.
Doesn't that stand to reason?
Then why in the hell do you think we're exactly as crappy as we were before any of these changes started? If it can be demonstrated to you (clearly, without any question) that we are not "stocked with talent" but that we're also not totally bereft of players who can play in the NFL then what in the hell is the problem if it isn't what these guys are being asked to do? How many times do you have to see a LB running behind a WR who is laughing his ass off while he racks up yardage to get it through your head that we are sending guys out there to get roasted alive? How many more good games do guys we've sent packing have to have in order to make that reality for you?
Whatever. It doesn't matter in the long run. 16 more weeks of this and we'll lose count of how many people are on the hot seat. Then they'll send all the players out the door because IT'S THE TALENT, NOT DICK SMITH.
Don't count on it. If Dick stays another year I'm betting he seals Kubiak's fate too.
eriadoc
Texan-American
I agree with that.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Believe it or not so do I. The time to make this change is passed and won't come again until after we've played another season of bad football.
Doesn't mean the change didn't need to happen.
And for the record I agree that there is a lot wrong with this team. There's a lot wrong with this organization and I'm starting to believe that we do not have the right kind of people at the top to field a competitive team in the NFL. Bob McNair might be a wonderful human being but he's been a complete patsy since the Texans came into existence. He's a clown fish swimming among sharks in this league and as long as he plays by his official "Boy Scouts of America book of good sportsmanship and conduct" we're going to suck and suck hard.
threetoedpete
Hall of Fame
Bottom line for this team is when they get matched up with another team with mediocre talent, they can compete. When they are out manned they lay this type of egg. Same style of game happened in Jacksonville last year. Kubiack knew. Took the chance early to give himself the extra time to eat on the clock and keep them in the game.
I think it is a waisted time to bang on Smith. In the first place they aren't going to bring in a wild man balls to the wall d-coordinator like the Texas El Paso guy in the middle of the season. In the second place it goes against Gary Kubiack's mind set of bend but don't break defense. I mean the broncos have been doing this style of defense since I was a little boy...forty years. And third I think some of you using "well other teams have lesser talent" argument do not understand the level of talent our dogs do possess. They're going to pick at our DTs, the Safeties and Will Line backer all season long. Whether or not Smith is here or not. Might as well face it...Weaver, T.J. and Greenwood are out right dogs. Nothing the d co-coordinator can do to change that. They send five they get blocked. They send six they get blocked. Been going on for four years. Might be the d-co-coordinators fault. My money says it's the players not playing. The players can only do so much with the talent God has given them. And the HC knows this too.
I think it is a waisted time to bang on Smith. In the first place they aren't going to bring in a wild man balls to the wall d-coordinator like the Texas El Paso guy in the middle of the season. In the second place it goes against Gary Kubiack's mind set of bend but don't break defense. I mean the broncos have been doing this style of defense since I was a little boy...forty years. And third I think some of you using "well other teams have lesser talent" argument do not understand the level of talent our dogs do possess. They're going to pick at our DTs, the Safeties and Will Line backer all season long. Whether or not Smith is here or not. Might as well face it...Weaver, T.J. and Greenwood are out right dogs. Nothing the d co-coordinator can do to change that. They send five they get blocked. They send six they get blocked. Been going on for four years. Might be the d-co-coordinators fault. My money says it's the players not playing. The players can only do so much with the talent God has given them. And the HC knows this too.
J-Russ
Veteran
Putting LBs on opposing teams top WR.
Dropping slow DE like Weaver back into coverage.
Giving huge cushions to WR.
If you don't think that bad coaching then I don't know what it'll take for people to get it. Some of the things that people think are right and would defend is totally beyond me, I just don't understand.
Allstar
Bona fide
I keep reading this comment . . .
"This defense is way too talented to be this bad" . . .
Other than Mario, Demeco, and Amobi . . . who?
Can you honestly say that you actually keep reading this comment???
It was said once in the gameday thread and I haven't seen it anywhere else. This is not the consensus opinion on the board and I don't think that it needs a thread devoted to something one person said.
If I'm wrong, then sorry, but I have not seen people say this as much as you make it seem like.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Maybe it's just me or maybe you don't do this in the pros but when it was 35-3 ... I'd tried to find someone out there who was interested in playing .
I agree the DC is not so hot but how do you show up opening day and let a team do what it wants .
J-Russ
Veteran
I think it'll be hard to find someone out on the side that would want to play. I felt horrible just watching it through my TV, imagine how hard it is to be a player on the team witnessing first hand the destruction on the field. I think most of the players just wanted to get the embarrassment over with.
What a horrible feeling to have, to see a team do whatever it wants to you, whenever, and you can't stop it.
Yep, not a single assist let alone a couple solo tackles for Amobi. No wonder, its very challenging to tackle the ball carrier when you're being pushed backwards 10-15 yards by the guy across the los from you. But Amobi really had a disappointing game.
I keep reading this comment . . .
"This defense is way too talented to be this bad" . . .
Other than Mario, Demeco, and Amobi . . . who?
Go back and look at the game day threads of the preseason games, and go back and look at all the "Fire Richard Smith" threads. You'll see them.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
And that's all I'm saying.
And when Dick LeBeau was out of work following his termination as the Bengals head coach did he get a call from the Houston Texans? Hell no. Dom Capers had the immortal Vic Fangio who has never once been successful in his entire career guiding our defense at the time.
We have a tradition of digging deep down in the toilet for our assistant coaches here in Houston. That's started to change recently with Gibbs and Rhodes but we need to keep going with that.
threetoedpete
Hall of Fame
Obviously, they over estimated the DT's ablity to stop the run. I mean when you get right down to it if you wanna bang the coaches, this game was lost the moment Maddox was let go and Okam was left dangling on the IA list. Someone over estimated the LB's and Dt's ability to defend the run. The Steelers will pummel you if you give them third and short too many times. I mean when the radio play by play guys are using terms like hot spoon through ice cream describing the rusihng assault the Steelers o-line was doing to our d-line, that's pretty bad.
Travis Johnson is a blue collar warm body. Nothing more. After three years, projecting anything more onto him is like saying you believe a donkey can compete at the Kentucky derby. Same with Weaver and Greenwood. These guys are not going to have break through years. They are not going to get any better. They are what they are. '85 bears....please. give me a break.
That's just silly.
threetoedpete
Hall of Fame
Now you wanna sweep Kubes out and start over....fine. But we aren't go any where switching back and fourth from 3-4 to 4-3. Some of us said at the time it was going to take at least three years to make that type of a switch. Now you want to switch back again and start over ? When you got Kubiak you got the complete package. Offensive genius...Broncos Protege. I do not understand the inter changeable safety concept. I do not understand the old veterans vs the youngsters at the back up spots. But that is what he knows. That is how he was trained. He isn't going to change. I mean when was the last time you saw an Aggie stand up and tell the world he was wrong about anything. Either you give this guy the time he requires or you start over. Smith goes, Kubiack goes. Smith may fall on the sword for Kubaik's philosophies...but they are the HC's philosophies. As much as I disagree with some of his stuff I do not want to start over. That would mean another four years in he77. Already been there.
Last edited:
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
It was mentioned I think after the Dallas game that having two DTs at 300 lbs will get you shoved backwards by power running teams .
This is not about the 3-4 or the 4-3.
This is about knowing what you want and going after the talent to make it happen.
Its not just the play calling on Sunday. Its all week. All offseason. Have a plan. Get the people that can get it done.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I never said I wanted to "sweep Kubes out" and start over. I said that we need to keep going with hiring better assistants.
One of the commonly stated reasons for our assistants sucking so damned bad under Capers was that "these were the guys who were available when we were hiring" and the very same thing has been said about Kubiak. He supposedly wanted to bring in Frank Bush but he wasn't available so he elevated Smith who had been hired to coach linebackers to the DC spot.
Now why is Gary Kubiak's second (let me repeat that, SECOND) choice for DC still in charge when Frank Bush is on staff? Ray Rhodes is on staff?
Nobody better than Richard Smith became available over the last two years?
That's what I'm saying. What you were talking about I have no idea.
Texan JBZ
Da Sip's Finest
Don't stop there J-Russ. How about not calling one run blitz on the first two series of the second half. How about not blitzing anyone on 3rd & 9 against Byron Leftwich. How about the third down TD to Hines Ward when no one blitzed. I can keep going on, and on, and on, and on, and.......
J-Russ
Veteran
Yep. Agreed. Hope someone ask him about that on the press conference tomorrow.
J-Russ
Veteran
Preach on brotha.
The last 2-3 hours has became a big blur to me. I think I might've fainted somewhere between the mid 1st quarter to late 3rd quarter of the game. Too much ****ty defense for me to handle.
P
Polo
Guest
Richard Smith didn't coach a great game, but our players werer just beaten all day by more talented players...
Greenwood too slow on the edge, DB's too soft on the edge, manhandled in the run game, Mario the only one on the d-line getting sacks...
Richard Smith can go or leave...doesn't matter much too me...
Now there's some players on defense that absolutely must be replaced...
Greenwood too slow on the edge, DB's too soft on the edge, manhandled in the run game, Mario the only one on the d-line getting sacks...
Richard Smith can go or leave...doesn't matter much too me...
Now there's some players on defense that absolutely must be replaced...
I agree that the Steelers have a system. Mike Tomlin inherited the system. Heck, Bill Cowher inherited it. They know what type of players they want, and they know how to develop them into quality NFL players. It's a system that's been used in Pittsburgh for decades, now. And it didn't happen overnight.
The average Steelers defender is in his 6th season with the team. He became a starter in his 3rd year. The Steelers defense is homegrown, with only 2 starters coming in free agency (Farrior & Clark). They don't rush young players. They don't rebuild, they reload. The Steelers defense is the (black &) gold standard in the NFL.
The Texans have some nice building blocks on defense. Just not enough, yet. What the Texans do not have is the required vision to implement the their talent nor the coaching to adequately develop them. I think the Texans could become a good defense with a coaching staff that can scheme and teach. But, they'll still need more talent to become great.
Texan JBZ
Da Sip's Finest
Wow, there's an understatement! I've heard this talent argument until I'm about blue in the face. If Richard Smith knows the defense is lacking in overall talent, there is only one thing he can possibly do then: CREATE TOTAL FU%#&%G CHAOS!!! That is exactly what Lebeau does. You think that the Steelers have an above-average secondary? Who would even know with the kind of chaos their front seven creates. I can't count the number of times the Texans played their base, non-attacking defense today. One blitz I do remember is when he finally called an overload blitz and Mario got the sack that caused the fumble. How many times did he run that same blitz, or even a variation of it, the rest of the game? None by my count.
threetoedpete
Hall of Fame
How many times have I got to post this ....the d-co-coordinator is doing precisely exactly what this HC wants. When you bang Smith....you ARE banging the HC. Now you may want to split it up to make the cut easier to take ? Ok. Kubiak isn't going to change. Y'all want to start over fine. I'll believe Kubes throws smith over the ships rail when I see it. And what I'll know is that act won't be coming from Kubiack. That'll be a mandate from Bob McNair.
Last edited by a moderator:
I understand completely what you are saying.
I do not think Richard Smith has any goal in mind. He is improvising.
If he needs more talent, which I agree he does, he needs to identify what he wants and go get it.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Even when your defensive players "suck," you expect some "suck" adjustments. But when your adjustment just plain sucks (as in non-existent), you may have to conclude at one point in time that your defensive coordinator might just plain suck eggs too.
Richard Smith needs to be informed that there will be one and only one alternative afforded him, the next time his suck adjustment index sucks.:
P
Polo
Guest
texanhead08
All Pro
We have a couple of really good players on defense to build around in Mario and Demeco, but the rest of the defense is nothing to brag about.
The def line is a big issue other than Mario and the jury is still out on Okeyo (sp). Weaver and Johnson are providing nothing right now, they represent the stupid moves that the prior gm made over and over. I thought Johnson was a reach to be drafted in the 1st round then and I havent seen anything in 3yrs to prove otherwise. Weaver was brought here to to play de and he's gotten one sack in the last 17 games. I want to know one team that wouldnt have realeased his ass already.
We have a good young pro bowl mlb but the jury is still out on the others Greenwood had a pretty good year last year but for the money they prior gm signed him for he hasnt provided what was expected. This still goes back to Casserly being a bad personal man end of story. Zac Diles has some potential but he was still a late round pick so pretty much whatever you get out of him he has to be considered an overachiever.
In the secondary we have Bennett at cb and he has played well for a mid round pick but he wasnt drafted to be a shutdown corner he was drafted to provide depth. I dont think we would look near as bad if Dunta was healthy and in the lineup but considering the type of injury he had I am not sure we can ever expect him to be the same. The safeties aren't talented and thats not a suprise. We all remember Demps was on the street at one point and injuries made his sign him. If he was starter material I wonder why he was on the street, I know he was an alternate for the pro bowl but he doesnt seem that good and thats just my opinion. The main responsibility of the fs is to not get beat deep and we saw that happen a couple times today. The wanna be coaches have wanted an upgrade over CC Brown for years now but they keep sending him out there so either the personel people dont see a need to upgrade or he is at least serviceable so thats why he is here. I guess at least he comes on the cheat.
Its still pretty simple there are about 4 guys on our defense that would start for most teams we only have 3 in the lineup with Dunta being out. I hope he can come back soon and at 100 % or else we better score a lot of points or we are going to lose a lot of games.
The def line is a big issue other than Mario and the jury is still out on Okeyo (sp). Weaver and Johnson are providing nothing right now, they represent the stupid moves that the prior gm made over and over. I thought Johnson was a reach to be drafted in the 1st round then and I havent seen anything in 3yrs to prove otherwise. Weaver was brought here to to play de and he's gotten one sack in the last 17 games. I want to know one team that wouldnt have realeased his ass already.
We have a good young pro bowl mlb but the jury is still out on the others Greenwood had a pretty good year last year but for the money they prior gm signed him for he hasnt provided what was expected. This still goes back to Casserly being a bad personal man end of story. Zac Diles has some potential but he was still a late round pick so pretty much whatever you get out of him he has to be considered an overachiever.
In the secondary we have Bennett at cb and he has played well for a mid round pick but he wasnt drafted to be a shutdown corner he was drafted to provide depth. I dont think we would look near as bad if Dunta was healthy and in the lineup but considering the type of injury he had I am not sure we can ever expect him to be the same. The safeties aren't talented and thats not a suprise. We all remember Demps was on the street at one point and injuries made his sign him. If he was starter material I wonder why he was on the street, I know he was an alternate for the pro bowl but he doesnt seem that good and thats just my opinion. The main responsibility of the fs is to not get beat deep and we saw that happen a couple times today. The wanna be coaches have wanted an upgrade over CC Brown for years now but they keep sending him out there so either the personel people dont see a need to upgrade or he is at least serviceable so thats why he is here. I guess at least he comes on the cheat.
Its still pretty simple there are about 4 guys on our defense that would start for most teams we only have 3 in the lineup with Dunta being out. I hope he can come back soon and at 100 % or else we better score a lot of points or we are going to lose a lot of games.
austintexanite
Rookie
My thoughts exactly, I would have thought after last year that we would have blitzed some more coming into todays game and obviously we did not. What frustrates me the most is that we adjusted too late and gave the Steelers WRs too much cushion. Our defense scheme is horrible and too simple to attack.
On offense, it reminded me of the 05' season with a certain quarterback who got rattled very early. Schaub needs to toughen up or see a shrink. Mario and Dre were the only bright spots for me.
Goldensilence
hipster elite
A defense that will coach and make a scheme by itself?
If you ask some people he needs pro-bowl talent at every position to see what he can really do.
Herv spot on again. I really hope for all Kubiak has done positive for the offense if he does keep Smith around it could cost him his job. I just really hope it doesn't take more then this season to realize it.
P
Polo
Guest
My mind still hasn't changed about Richard Smith or his talent...
Not a great coordinator, Not great talent...
I don't think Smith deserves to be fired though....Ultimately the blame for poor defense will fall on his shoulders though...
Not a great coordinator, Not great talent...
I don't think Smith deserves to be fired though....Ultimately the blame for poor defense will fall on his shoulders though...
Texan JBZ
Da Sip's Finest
Good Lord man! What are you doing blaming the defensive scheme that Richard Smith employs? Don't you know we have an abundant lack of talent? Hell, everyone knows that!
