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Old 08-17-2008   #81
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

When there is this much heated debate about a 5 WR spot then obviously the player in question has some serious potential.

We can put Davis in to return punts, he wont be as "potentially" explosive as JJ in that role because he's more of a KR but he'd be solid. The real question here is "do you think JJ has enough potential to keep at # 5?

I think he does, worst case scenario if he puts out 2 more duds then I think we keep him as the 5th or 6th WR and just dont suit him up until he proves to the coaches that we can depend on him. You take what a competitor loves most (presumably football) and that will in theory bring him back where he needs to be mentally/physically/spiritually or whatever.

09 is when he's in danger of being cut however.
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Old 08-17-2008   #82
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
It is the head coaches responsibility to develop the talent he is given. Period. I'm not advocating we dump Kubiak. What I'm tiring to point out is that they have failed with this prospect...a third round pick. I said at the time it was wrong to press the guy. I warned this would be the consequence if they pushed him too far too fast.
"Pushed him too far too fast" LMFAO, what the hell are you talking about?

We drafted him in the third round and then "ONLY ASKED HIM TO RETURN PUNTS."

I hate to break this to you, but if you think that's pressing a player then every damn coach in this league is pressing young prospects around the NFL. Nobody asked Jacoby to start did they? Nobody expected Jacoby to start did they? Well guess what, if your not starting, your playing special teams........everybody either starts or is expected to help the team elsewhere.

The fact that Jacoby is struggling right now doesn't have crap to do with Kubiak pressing him, it's the fact that he's just a young player who's struggling to get his head in the game.

I mean what's next......are you going to say Kubiak is pressing Molden too far when he's asked to contribute on special teams?

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Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
Well now it's reached critical mass. In a year when they don't have a spare roster spot....they've got a hard choice to make with the guy.
and that's a bad thing? I'm glad our team has reached a point where below average to average players are being pushed out of jobs......under Capers Jacoby might actually of been able to start.


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My line is if you knew this prospect was raw....and you didn't have the time to develop him....why in the world is the prospect the villian here ? Not Jones' fault.
First of all, just about every mid-round pick is raw, especially players with Jacoby's physical #s.

Second, How was Kubiak and Smith supposed to realize that Kevin Walter/Andre Davis/David Anderson would all step up their game and come in, work their asses off, study film, and do every little thing to improve their game............the things that Jacoby should've done, that's where the blame lies.

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Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
The guy was what he was when they drafted him. The guy is tiring....too hard from my view. Each time he makes a mistake...he's pressing harder. And then makes another mistake.

And psyches ....that's Kubiak's province. It's his job to get into the prospects brain and fix him. His job to manage the talent.
It's Kubiak's job to give that prospect as many chances to succeed as possible (Kubiak has done that......that was the whole reason why he even called the reverse play), it's Jacoby's job to take advantage of the chances given to him..........like every other WR has done.

It's not Kubiak's job to be Jacoby's sports psychologist when he also has to coach and evaluate the play of 79 other players, he doesn't have time to hold Jacoby's hand...(that's really up to his position coach anyways)....like Kubiak said, this is a big boy's league and Jacoby needs to step it up.

Some players are made for the spotlight on the big stage and some are not, just because in the end, the game might be too big for Jacoby..(don't get me wrong, I hope Jacoby turns it around, but)..that does not mean Kubiak did anything wrong. Sometimes the spotlight is just too bright for some players.

It seems like the only thing that the posters (who are making excuses for Jacoby's play thus far) want to do is pass blame elsewhere (by lashing out at posters like me or blame the coaches), instead of holding Jacoby accountable for his poor play. However one thing they need to remember is that there are dozens of other players trying to make this team (some of which are clearly outplaying Jacoby) and it would be a absolute horrible messege to send, if Kubiak gave special treatment to Jacoby. That's the kind've thing that could plant a bad seed in the lockeroom.
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Old 08-17-2008   #83
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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Originally Posted by Specnatz View Post
WRONG!! WOW I can not believe I am hearsing these excuses for a player.
Well, I can. It's quite typical around here to give players all the credit in the world when they play well, but if they don't, it's not their fault, it's the coach's fault.

The coaches do lead these horses to water, but it's as if we expect them to make them drink.

This prevailing train of thought that if Jacoby Jones gets cut, then it's Kubiak's "fault" . . . absolute nonsense, but sadly, just typical.
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Old 08-18-2008   #84
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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In practice this week, David Anderson and Andre Davis will field punts. Anderson has already moved ahead of Jones in the pecking order at receiver.
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Old 08-18-2008   #85
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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t seems like the only thing that the posters (who are making excuses for Jacoby's play thus far) want to do is pass blame elsewhere (by lashing out at posters like me or blame the coaches), instead of holding Jacoby accountable for his poor play. However one thing they need to remember is that there are dozens of other players trying to make this team (some of which are clearly outplaying Jacoby) and it would be a absolute horrible messege to send, if Kubiak gave special treatment to Jacoby. That's the kind've thing that could plant a bad seed in the lockeroom.


that's the whole point Jack A$$ they knew going in that he would need "special" treatment...they said it themselves at the time they picked him. May be expedient now, to wash our hands of him. No secret to why this franchise has sucked for six years now....they blow picks faster than a Cleveland HS Drama teacher blows johns. Kubiack got greedy with the kid and now he's f'ked up. Talent wasn't the problem here. Development of the talent was. There aren't dozens of players with this guys athletic ability out there. They are rare. The horrible message is telling the team they will put up with mediocre performances all over the roster over rare athletes who are out of time.


The reason we end up with these suckie contracts like Weaver's and now Reeves' is that no one with any hint of talent wants to come here. So they got to over pay for also rans to shore up the team. No secret as to why the defense gets why better the closer they(the other team) get to the Texan's goal line. The field shrinks and it hides the many athletic deficiencies of our back seven. Less field to cover the less athlete you need to cover it.

Well you're loaded this summer with talent at WR. So making the cut with J.J. is not going to hurt to much ? We aren't going any where this year with out him on board. Further he will become another in a very long line of personnel blunders we've made over seven years. We had him...had the rare guy and turned him lose only to watch him develop with another team and take them to where they wanted to go. Can't keep on squandering talent and believe there is any hope here. If they don't get him back, Jones will be strike one for Smithiack.
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Old 08-18-2008   #86
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
that's the whole point Jack A$$ they knew going in that he would need "special" treatment...they said it themselves at the time they picked him. May be expedient now, to wash our hands of him. No secret to why this franchise has sucked for six years now....they blow picks faster than a Cleveland HS Drama teacher blows johns. Kubiack got greedy with the kid and now he's f'ked up. Talent wasn't the problem here. Development of the talent was. There aren't dozens of players with this guys athletic ability out there. They are rare. The horrible message is telling the team they will put up with mediocre performances all over the roater over rare athletes who are out of time.
You're seriously off your meds and who the heck are you calling a jackass?

First of all.....Kubiak never said they had to baby this guy, that's basically what your asking for. They said he's rough around the edges and needed work, but has potential......which was the whole damn reason why he was just asked and expected to return punts.

Second, you still can't give a damn example on how the hell Kubiak "pressed" or "got greedy with Jacoby" or how they forced him into action. Telling a 3rd round pick to just return punts is not "pressing him". It's one of the most basic things to do while he learns the WR position in the NFL. Nobody expected the kid to play WR from day 1 and nobody expected him to start from day 1........I still don't get what the hell your talking about when you said Kubiak was "pressing Jacoby too far" or "getting greedy" with him.

All he was asked to do was return punts and if he can't even secure a punt how the hell is Kubiak supposed to get him to the level where he's becoming a impact player at the WR position?


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The reason we end up with these suckie contracts like Weaver's and now Reeves' is that no one with any hint of talent wants to come here. So they got to over pay for also rans to shore up the team.
Well under Casserly that was the main reason for the bad contracts......that and the fact that Casserly was just a bad GM.

The problem with the lack of splash free agent signings from Rick Smith is, because we still haven't cleared all the bad cap from the Casserly days, pretty much the only peices we can afford right now are stop gap players.

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Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
No secret as to why the defense gets why better the closer they(the other team) get to the Texan's goal line. The field shrinks and it hides the many athletic deficiencies of our back seven. Less field to cover the less athlete you need to cover it.
What you just said about our defense could be said about every damn defense in the league....there's a reason why teams spend so much damn time on redzone offense. Having said that though, I do agree with you about lacking some athleticism on defense, but we've only had two drafts under Rick Smith (three dafts under Kubiak) and they have been addressing that issue.......Mario Williams, DeMeco Ryans, Amobi Okoye, Fred Bennett, Zach Diles, Antwaun Molden, Xavier Adibi, and Frank Okam.

Have you even been paying attention to their drafts over the last 3 seasons....seriously. There's only so many damn holes you can fill, (especially without two 2nd round picks) and I'm sure I don't even have to tell you this, but......our previous crack team left us with a shit load of holes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
Well you're loaded this summer with talent at WR. So making the cut with J.J. is not going to hurt to much ? We aren't going any where this year with out him on board.
Wait a second I get it.....your just being sarcastic right? genius.....I mean, please tell me your being sarcastic...

So now our season is going to ride and die with Jacoby Jones.....is that what you said? Our season next year hinges on Jacoby Jones being on the roster....wow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
Further he will become another in a very long line of personnel blunders we've made over seven years. We had him...had the rare guy and turned him lose only to watch him develop with another team and take them to where they wanted to go. Can't keep on squandering talent and believe there is any hope here. If they don't get him back, Jones will be strike one for Smithiack.
Well unlike you I like to seperate the Capers/Casserly era from the Kubiak/Smith era........it's only fair to our new front office since they were busy coaching and help building playoff teams while the other two crack pots were busy derailing this entire team.

If Jacoby happens to turn out to be a bust, it's a busted 3rd round pick WHICH HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. The important thing to do is however hit more than you miss on your mid round picks and Kubiak and Smith have done that. It's not like Jacoby was a first rounder and a sure lock player in the NFL.

Also about your previous statement on how "There aren't dozens of players with this guys athletic ability out there. They are rare." That is a load of bullcrap. Players like Jacoby Jones come into the NFL just as fast as they leave the NFL......which is actually pretty often.

I mean don't get the wrong impression, I'm not wishing the guy will get cut or anything and I'm actually rooting for him, but I'm also realistic to what the hell is going on and what's going on is....

Gary Kubiak is NOT coaching or PRESSING Jacoby Jones off the team........Jacoby Jones is PLAYING himself off the team. He needs to step up his game, these next two games are very important to him.

Now goodnight Sir.
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Old 08-18-2008   #87
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

Well when the guy has a ripped up shoulder and as you say was not asked to be a front line producer by the HC supposedly....somebody was defiantly pushing somebody the last nine games. Kubiak is more than just culpable here. The fact that you can't or won't see it makes you short sighted. Not me.
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Old 08-18-2008   #88
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

he won't be cut. he still falls into the "project" catagory. with Johnson, Walter, Davis & Anderson playing well you can take some extra time with Jones.

Go Texans.
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Old 08-18-2008   #89
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
It seems like the only thing that the posters (who are making excuses for Jacoby's play thus far) want to do is pass blame elsewhere (by lashing out at posters like me or blame the coaches), instead of holding Jacoby accountable for his poor play. However one thing they need to remember is that there are dozens of other players trying to make this team (some of which are clearly outplaying Jacoby) and it would be a absolute horrible messege to send, if Kubiak gave special treatment to Jacoby. That's the kind've thing that could plant a bad seed in the lockeroom.
WHOA!! Hold your ponies big fella.

The only thing remotely close to making an excuse so far is say our punt return blocking has been suspect on the majority of his attempted returns. The only thing I asked for was people tone down on their vehement attacks I've only seen reserved for DC.
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Old 08-18-2008   #90
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
I agree. Further, it isn't Jacoby Jones who is the villain here. It's Gary Kubiak. They knew what they had when they drafted the guy and they pressed him into service. They were desperate for a "playmaker" and they couldn't give him the time he needed to develop. They threw him to the wolves. It isn't Jacoby Jones' fault that the Texans had four rose fertilizer drafts in a row before he got here. Now the are caught. Are they out of time with him or do they give him the time he needs to slay the dragons in his head ? It isn't physical. It's mental. Only thing ludicrous here is expecting a raw guy to preform like a high end guy out of a big school. They pushed him and now it's blown up in their face. They lose J.J. a decent "B" draft turns into a "D" draft.
This is comical to me. How on earth is it all Kubiak's fault because this guy is fumbling kicks and hurting the Texans in pre season games??? Kubiak has worked really hard to get this guy going from what I've read, and it's up to the player to make his own strides at this point. Kubiak didn't throw him out to the wolves like you say. You're talking about him being PUSHED TO HARD!? He's a football player in the NFL for god sakes, they had better be pushing him. There hasn't been any over whelming expectations for him at this point, and if he can't handle being pushed hard to succeed, then he doesn't need to be in the NFL.

Newsflash, he is a second year player now and it's time to show why you were drafted. I wasn't one that completely bought into all of that hype in pre season last year, because it was pre season. He looked great, but we didn't see any of that in the regular season. He was a rookie that was hurt for a while, so many of us have been patient. However, he's screwing up plays now that he shouldn't. I don't care if his family and friends were at the game, and he wanted to make a big SPLASH of a play. He screwed up, and then did it again the very next week. He's in the dog house until he shows the coaching staff why he's on the team.

He has not shown that he is a lot better than many of our WR's. I could care less what some rookie did in pre season last year. I'm into what I'm seeing right now, and he isn't impressing anyone, ESPECIALLY his coach.

I like what I'm seeing out of David Anderson. He seems like a capable guy that will make the plays when he has the opportunities. I liked some of those catches he made the other night and last week. No way JJ should be above David Anderson at this point.
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Old 08-18-2008   #91
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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You know, I would only really start worrying when these fumbles start happening in the regular season. Right now, he just needs to learn 'grab the ball then run not run then grab the ball'.
Im worried because he HAS done this inthe regular season, and its not getting any better. The air forced his fumble against Denver. Its poor ball handling skills, which he shouldnt have at this level. If he doesnt get his head out of his ass, he's gonna be watching David Anderson do what he should be doing.
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Old 08-18-2008   #92
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
No way you said that. That's ridiculous.

1. Amobi Okoye - Starting DT, set our rookie sack record.
2. Half of Matt Schaub.
3. Jacoby Jones - Talented but may not make the team in his second year.
4. Fred Bennett - Starting CB.
5. Brandon Harrison - Backup S, may or may not make the team in his second year.
6. Kasey Studdard - Backup G.
7. Zac Diles - Starting OLB.

With or without Jones, that's a helluva draft.
Agreed. Anytime you get starters with your 4th and 7th round pick, you're doing something right. Also Studard and Frye are quality back ups.
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Old 08-18-2008   #93
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
Well when the guy has a ripped up shoulder and as you say was not asked to be a front line producer by the HC supposedly....somebody was defiantly pushing somebody the last nine games. Kubiak is more than just culpable here. The fact that you can't or won't see it makes you short sighted. Not me.
He messed up his shoulder RETURNING PUNTS, this is football and injuries happen. I'm not the one who's short sighted here. This is the NFL and asking a 3rd round pick to return punts is not out of the ordinary.....every coach around the league does the same damn thing. (on a 53 man roster, you either start, backup, or play special teams) I mean if you don't even think that Jacoby should've been returning punts you're making me question the potential that you've been raving about. If it's "pressing" to ask Jacoby to just return punts and just do special teams, how the hell are we ever to expect Jacoby Jones to become a consistent WR?
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Old 08-18-2008   #94
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

Jacoby's going to have to have a king sized melt down to not make the team...

Besides the fumbles (I know fumbles aren't a small problem) he's been playing well.

If Jacoby keeps showing an inability to hold on to the ball look for his playing time to be drastically reduced until he earns it back, not get cut...

I'm done with this topic. It's silly IMO.
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Old 08-18-2008   #95
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

lol people are arguing like they are the agent of Jacoby or Rick Smith.

Jacoby has a lot of talent. He has made some boneheaded moves.

If he has the desire to be a football player, he'll be on the team. If he doesn't show that desire, he'll be cut this year or next. its as simple as that
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Old 08-18-2008   #96
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

Maybe Jacoby will have the opposite happen to him this year as opposed to last year where he tore it up in the preseason and then came back to earth in the regular season. Bad 2008 preseason equals great 2008 regular season.
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Old 08-18-2008   #97
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

I'm just going to throw this out here.

Jacoby has made some plays as a WR this preseason. Remember the 41 yarder against the Broncos and the 20 yarder against the Saints.

But at least in that first preseason game, Jacoby missed at least one block and allowed the CB to release and stuff the run. I don't think that's going to go over very well considering his other mental screwups.

I don't see him getting released unless he totally and completely melts down in the next two games but that is a possibility.
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Old 08-18-2008   #98
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

I think there are a number of separate issues at work here. Addressing them, in order of severity:

1. Should Jones make the team? I think he will, but 53 is a small number of roster spots.

2. Should Jones be returning punts? Before noticing this thread, I made a post about Jones being an apprentice: learning the WR trade while contributing in the present by returning punts. The problem is that a fumbled punt is about the most devastating screw-up that can happen on the field. Your defense has made a stop, but now you make them go straight back onto the field and (usually) in the shadow of your own endzone. I wonder what the winning percentage is for teams that lose a fumbled punt--my guess is that it is very, very low. Still, the problem is now beyond the fumbles--I haven't seen this mentioned, but the worst decision Jones made in the Superdome was on the last punt--the thing landed on the about the 15, but he made no effort to catch it. As a result, the Saints easily pinned us to our 3. That's inexcusable. But his errors aren't due to a lack of talent--it's a lack of focuse and discipline--his three terrible punt-return plays came when he broke the 3 cardinal rules of punt returners (field the ball if beyond your own 8, catch-and-secure, run straight up the field). If he can't learn those most basic of rules, I wonder how he can be expected to handle the myriad of reads that a WR must make.

3. Is he our fourth WR? I think David Anderson's answered that question for us.

4. Is he our fifth WR? Well, if he's not returning punts, do we want to keep a guy who does not contribute anywhere else on the team--so I guess this goes back to question number 1. I think he'll get this year, but he better show that he gets it soon because the coaches have been awfully generous with their praise of the other WRs.

Finally, and this may just be me, but it makes me insane to hear an excuse that involves having your psyche messed up by another team's @#*#@$!!! PUNTER!! Freak injuries happen, but if you are not there mentally because of something a PUNTER did to you, it's probably time to start selling insurance. If Hunter Smith put JJ into a funk, I can't imagine what, say, a Roy Williams would do to him.
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Old 08-18-2008   #99
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

I bet this was the same talk going on when Jerry Rice was having his issues. I hope someone tells Jacoby that at some point and tell him that he just has to work to get better at holding on to the ball.


edit: also, i think this talk about D. Anderson is premature. He has to show that he can do this in the regular season on a regular bases. He has to be our Wes Welker so to speak...right now hes only done this against 2nd and 3rd teamers....and anything on the Saints pass defense isnt all that to praise. D. Anderson is exciting and he has been VERY consistent when compared to Jones but i just don't know what hes going to do in the regular season because he plays like this each preseason.
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Old 08-18-2008   #100
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

Quote:
Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
The horrible message is telling the team they will put up with mediocre performances all over the roater over rare athletes who are out of time.


The reason we end up with these suckie contracts like Weaver's and now Reeves' is that no one with any hint of talent wants to come here.
First, I have to say that if you are a rare performer, you show it on the field or not at all. Yes, he is a good athlete, but if he's being outperformed by people who are, in your own words, mediocre, that tells something about him.

Second, with Weaver and Reeves, who else would you have brought in here under the same circumstances? They believed that they were going to take Bush, and they needed defensive line help. They also wanted a cornerback to be almost a placeholder starter until Dunta came back who would then slip into a nickel position. You don't sign Asante Samuel (assuming anyone other than Philadelphia ever had a crack at him) for all those millions to fill that role. Who, then? I don't know.

The NFL is a meritocracy. If you don't get the job done, you don't keep your job. If your job is to return punts and you're failing at that, you're probably not going to keep your job. I don't think they've asked very much of Jacoby Jones. You look at a guy like David Anderson who was a seventh round pick. What was asked of him? Come in, bust your ass and you probably still won't make the roster. How encouraging was that? And he still came in and took care of it. You can only do so much coddling of the youngsters. This isn't David Carr, thrust into the fire.

I think Jacoby can turn it around and that he probably will but if they do decide that they've seen enough and he doesn't make the final cut, I'll trust Kubiak and Smith and that they've done for him what they can.
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