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Old 08-17-2008   #61
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
Well thorn you can only bust out so many top end picks before you're swimming with the sharks. I don't hold anyone responsible for taking the chance on the guy. The roster was what it was when they got there. I do expect Kubiak to own up when he spits the bit. And clearly in this case he did. Worse case scenario....Dungy grabs him when he hits the waiver wire...fixes him and we're looking at J.J.'s arse for the next eight years.
Or maybe JJ gets his head on straight and becomes a solid contributer to this team. I'm not pleased with JJ's performance, but I'm not going to call him a bust after his rookie season in which he was injured for a few games and the first two games of the 2008 preseason.
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Old 08-17-2008   #62
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
No way you said that. That's ridiculous.

1. Amobi Okoye - Starting DT, set our rookie sack record.
2. Half of Matt Schaub.
3. Jacoby Jones - Talented but may not make the team in his second year.
4. Fred Bennett - Starting CB.
5. Brandon Harrison - Backup S, may or may not make the team in his second year.
6. Kasey Studdard - Backup G.
7. Zac Diles - Starting OLB.

With or without Jones, that's a helluva draft.
What he said (talking to threetoedpete). I can't believe you even used the word "villain" in the same sentence with "Kubiak".

I want Jacoby Jones to be everything all of you want him to be and I'm sure the Texans want him to be that too. The fact however is that a guy who is exciting every once in a while, runs very fast, and turns the ball over a lot isn't special.

You know what that guy is?
You really want to know who that guy is?

At BEST he's Corey Bradford with Green Bay before we signed him. Sometimes that guy makes the turn and becomes a starter in this league and sometimes he bounces around the league for a while if he can return kicks.

Jones is going to have to work through this and dedicate himself to playing smarter than he has been. He hasn't been getting drilled or slammed. He's just been thinking too much (and/or too little) and he's committing mental lapses. He's got another year of that to give and then the Texans will let him go if he doesn't focus and get his act together. Any more time than that and he becomes the Texans version of Brad Lidge and no good can come from that.
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Old 08-17-2008   #63
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
Worse case scenario....Dungy grabs him when he hits the waiver wire...fixes him and we're looking at J.J.'s arse for the next eight years.

Up until that, I was willing to debate the point. Now I hate you. LOL

(not really) JJ will eventually turn out to be a good player, hopefully it's with us. The kid has talent, but his head isn't right now. He needs some fixin'.
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Old 08-17-2008   #64
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

Why would JJ get cut?

Wouldn't we trade him, rather than an outright release?

It's not like he's that bad, guys. Just having some handle issues...and even if WE can't fix him, somebody will want a shot at JJ.

Cutting JJ would be foolish. Kubiak can't fix him? Then at least get something for him. Draft pick OR player.

Cut JJ? Nope.
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Old 08-17-2008   #65
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

It is the head coaches responsibility to develop the talent he is given. Period. I'm not advocating we dump Kubiak. What I'm tiring to point out is that they have failed with this prospect...a third round pick. I said at the time it was wrong to press the guy. I warned this would be the consequence if they pushed him too far too fast. Well now it's reached critical mass. In a year when they don't have a spare roster spot....they've got a hard choice to make with the guy.
My line is if you knew this prospect was raw....and you didn't have the time to develop him....why in the world is the prospect the villian here ? Not Jones' fault.
The guy was what he was when they drafted him. The guy is tiring....too hard from my view. Each time he makes a mistake...he's pressing harder. And then makes another mistake.

And psyches ....that's Kubiak's province. It's his job to get into the prospects brain and fix him. His job to manage the talent.
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Old 08-17-2008   #66
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

JJ showed on the deep pass in the Broncos preseason game (last week) that he can get behind DBs and he can make the catch. That's the sort of thing they need to do with this guy: Get him down the field, deep, and snag the ball.

For all the bad plays that are being magnified in this thread...there's also some good plays that he's made. I remember one last season when he darted across the middle on a pass play and IIRC made a highlight reel catch that was behind him and possibly one-handed at the same time. I think that was a critical catch that extended a drive. Remember that one? I think it was mid-field or so. He's capable. A lot of draft picks aren't even capable.

All I am saying is that Owen Daniels has fumbled, and at critical points of a drive when he had the first down and tried to do more than what he should have. While furious at the time that OD fumbled, I also knew that he means more ON this team than off it. I think the same way about JJ.

Is he worthy of being a top 4 WR on our team? Not yet. But that doesn't mean he ought to be cut. You cut guys who are cancers in the locker room. You cut guys who go out and suck it up during camp and act like they don't care or that they are above the criticism. You cut guys who try really hard, and probably out-hustle others, but who wouldn't be able to sustain the crush of talent that they are up against when the real games roll around.

You might not start JJ. You might not even get him out there on the field at all, except for a few plays a game. You certainly try and control and contain the damage that his messed up mental state is in right now--he's just drowning in a sea of constant mistakes--because he is capable of turning the corner. It's worth a roster spot here, cuz I guarantee you he WON'T clear waivers and make our PS.

But you don't cut him. You trade him, at worst. You get something in return because he might gel at some point on another team.

Who knows when J is going to mature? I don't. Everyone is different.
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Old 08-17-2008   #67
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

There will be some tough choices getting the roster down to 57.

We're a little lop-sided right now with a very strong WR corps, with at least one good WR facing the cut. On the other hand, we've got many RBs, and I'd not be overly upset to cut any of them. The secondary picks itself unfortunately, and remains our weakest position.

JJ is a victim of the Texans strength in depth at WR. He won't be kept for punt returns alone. If he is cut, I'll consider it a great shame, because the kid's clearly got talent. He's running out of time to regain his confidence and the other WRs are all performing. Jacoby needs a big game against the cowgirls.
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Old 08-17-2008   #68
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

It's like people are pissed that JJ isn't the star we know he's capable of being...so it's OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!! CUT HIM!!!

Jeesh...relax a little.

In my book, he gets this season to turn the corner. If he can't hack it by year's end...then I understand if Smithiak feels they need to move him somewhere else for everybody's emotional well-being.

Cutting him is really not an option. I think people are thinking we have more "talent" than what we really have, so the thought is that we can't afford to keep JJ because there are other superstars waiting in the wings to take his place. That's an inflated sense of where we're at.

Good grief. We need a roster spot for JJ? Then cut Ahman Green. Heck, cut Chris Brown, too, and we'll have even more roster spots. We have two running backs on this team who aren't worth JACK and yet cutting JJ is a serious option?

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Old 08-17-2008   #69
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
It is the head coaches responsibility to develop the talent he is given. Period. I'm not advocating we dump Kubiak. What I'm tiring to point out is that they have failed with this prospect...a third round pick. I said at the time it was wrong to press the guy. I warned this would be the consequence if they pushed him too far too fast. Well now it's reached critical mass. In a year when they don't have a spare roster spot....they've got a hard choice to make with the guy.
My line is if you knew this prospect was raw....and you didn't have the time to develop him....why in the world is the prospect the villian here ? Not Jones' fault.
The guy was what he was when they drafted him. The guy is tiring....too hard from my view. Each time he makes a mistake...he's pressing harder. And then makes another mistake.

And psyches ....that's Kubiak's province. It's his job to get into the prospects brain and fix him. His job to manage the talent.
Everybody gets it wrong every now and then. So if Kubiak got it wrong on this one, it's not the end of the world to me. Like I said in the Sage/Schaub thread(s): Kubiak and Smith have gotten it right a lot more than they have gotten wrong. I don't think Kubiak is wildly mismanaging anyone.

I think JJ's raw talent is attractive to a team such as ours, and I don't think it was wrong of Kubiak to allow JJ to show his stuff. That's what football players want to do: They want to dazzle the world.

IMO, Kubiak shouldn't be blamed for letting JJ have a shot at it.

JJ does need to be held accountable. When this guy "figures it out," he's going to be awesome. Only an injury or a really bizarre off-the-field behavior issue is going to derail him. At some point, he's going to make it all click. Just like a timing belt.

He has more raw, unenriched talent in his pinkie than other draft choices this team has reached on before. Just my .02, though.
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Old 08-17-2008   #70
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

Before we started playing the preseason games, our WR corp was considered to be: AJ, KW, AD, and JJ. IF we carried a fifth receiver, the job was Mr. Anderson's to lose although he was getting competition in camp from a bunch of other guys.

After the first preseason game, it was pretty obvious that Mr. Anderson HAS to be on the team and may even be in the 4th WR spot instead of JJ. But JJ did have that beauty of a 41 yard reception.

After the second preseason game, Mr. Anderson is the 4th WR. And JJ is having concentration issues.

Is Kubiak screwing up with his treatment of JJ? I don't think so. He's trying to develop the player. If you make him do too much to quick. you can break him. If you DON'T put some pressure on him at some point, you can break him that way. Kubiak may end up breaking JJ. JJ may not step up. But that's not a sign of the end of the Smithiak era. It's one player who didn't develop the way we wanted.

There are plenty of other players who HAVE developed under Kubiak.

Right now, with all the good play we're getting at WR, it almost becomes a question on whether we carry 6 instead of 5 wideouts. JJ is almost definitely on the team but if he continues to make mental mistakes, the chance is there that he could be cut. I don't think it's a very big chance.
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Old 08-17-2008   #71
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

I'll admit that I jumped on the JJ bandwagon last offseason. I talked him up to some cowgirl fans before the preseason game with them. I'm not sure if it was his first major injury, but JJ was never the same since seperating his shoulder last year. He seems to dance and hesitate too much. He needs to clear his mind and play like he knows how. This will take time but should happen nevertheless. I think it would be a shame to see him go but that is not up to us anyway. He still shows glimpses of stardom at WR even though he does not get all that many ops at it. He was drafted to be a WR not just a return guy. I wish nothing but the best for him and hope he can turn it around.
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Old 08-17-2008   #72
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
It is the head coaches responsibility to develop the talent he is given. Period. I'm not advocating we dump Kubiak. What I'm tiring to point out is that they have failed with this prospect...a third round pick. I said at the time it was wrong to press the guy. I warned this would be the consequence if they pushed him too far too fast. Well now it's reached critical mass. In a year when they don't have a spare roster spot....they've got a hard choice to make with the guy.
My line is if you knew this prospect was raw....and you didn't have the time to develop him....why in the world is the prospect the villian here ? Not Jones' fault.
The guy was what he was when they drafted him. The guy is tiring....too hard from my view. Each time he makes a mistake...he's pressing harder. And then makes another mistake.

And psyches ....that's Kubiak's province. It's his job to get into the prospects brain and fix him. His job to manage the talent.
Which is all fine and dandy except that some guys won't grow up and some guys won't take their coaching and a "project" in the NFL is a guy who isn't going to contribute this year but will next year because the heat will be on by then. This isn't the mid eighties or the late seventies. This is 2008 and JJ is right on schedule for a small college project player on the team that drafted him.

Now in a purely hypothetical scenario where he does absolutely nothing this year, keeps fumbling the ball on punt returns and notches the odd catch here and there he goes into camp with his butt on the hot seat. If he doesn't get it straightened out by the time we cut our 2009 roster down to 53 guys then he's out of here. The way the league works today somebody will give him another shot and maybe the release might be the thing that gets his attention (in this purely hypothetical scenario) or maybe he does a Jerome Mathis and he turns around and blows that chance too. Nobody knows and I'd like to think that JJ would get it together in such a case.

But please man, quit acting like a second year player is supposed to still be handled with kid gloves. There isn't a team in this league who would deal with JJ any different than we have. Nobody has time for it anymore and he isn't a first overall pick like Carr was. Nobody is going to get fired or even chewed out if he doesn't pan out. He was (and remains) an exciting "possibility" and we all hope he works out but if he doesn't he's going to join a near endless supply of fast guys who lack the maturity to play in the NFL. It'll suck but we'll move on.
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Old 08-17-2008   #73
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

JJ needs to be a pro do film study, practice running routes, & stay in the weight room not the bars.

Bill Walsh had faith in JR because he was mature. Not getting DWI's & hanging out in bars.

JJ is going to have to work hard & live clean to regain KUBES trust.

Pete one draft pick that doesn't work out doesn't mean Smithiak are doing a lousy job. Life is hard when you make one minor mistake @ your job & people say you don't know what your doing. I'm sure you've never made mistakes @ your job. LOL.

We are talking about a 2nd year small school guy. They are'nt going to cut him. In fact they continued to let him return punts & learn from his mistakes. Good coaching IMO
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Old 08-17-2008   #74
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

From Sunday 3:30 (err, 3:50'ish) presser:

It appears JJ is definitely on the bubble with Kubiak.

Us fans can wish him onto the roster, but it doesn't look good.

Kubiak thinks Harry Williams might nab that spot. And then what do we do with Tim Carter? Does anyone think Tim might get a 6th spot if Kubiak goes with 6 WR...leaving JJ out of the picture completely?

Verrrry interesting.
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Old 08-17-2008   #75
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

Quote:
Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
It is the head coaches responsibility to develop the talent he is given. Period. I'm not advocating we dump Kubiak. What I'm tiring to point out is that they have failed with this prospect...a third round pick. I said at the time it was wrong to press the guy. I warned this would be the consequence if they pushed him too far too fast. Well now it's reached critical mass. In a year when they don't have a spare roster spot....they've got a hard choice to make with the guy.
My line is if you knew this prospect was raw....and you didn't have the time to develop him....why in the world is the prospect the villian here ? Not Jones' fault.
The guy was what he was when they drafted him. The guy is tiring....too hard from my view. Each time he makes a mistake...he's pressing harder. And then makes another mistake.

And psyches ....that's Kubiak's province. It's his job to get into the prospects brain and fix him. His job to manage the talent.


Its not the fact that the kid is raw , its that he has his head on things other than football . Rather than working his ass off to get better he's out in the clubs , falling asleep at the wheel and getting a dwi . You point the finger at Kubiak all ya want but the onus is squarely upon JJ to make the most of this opportunity .... This is the NFL not some semi-pro league where you can get by on being the better athlete .... He's gotta want this more than anything , he hasnt shown us that yet and it shows up in his play.
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Old 08-17-2008   #76
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

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Kubiak thinks Harry Williams might nab that spot. And then what do we do with Tim Carter? Does anyone think Tim might get a 6th spot if Kubiak goes with 6 WR...leaving JJ out of the picture completely?

Verrrry interesting.
Before preseason, it looked like David Anderson was in a tough battle for the WR5 position with Tim Carter and Leron McCoy and I thought that Harry Williams had dropped back a bit.

Now... like you said, David Anderson is the 4th and JJ has to battle with Carter, McCoy, and Williams for 5 and possibly 6.
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Old 08-17-2008   #77
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

So Kubiak said Harry Williams has been great on special teams but has he gotten any reps as a WR?
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Old 08-17-2008   #78
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

When you are talking "bubble" guys and 5th and 6th receivers what you do on special teams will determine your fate. If JJ does not step up next week unfortunately, most likely he will be out.

Getting the roster down this year will be the hardest decision in this franchises history. Which is a great sign, guys that you cut will potentially go to other teams and could be starters for them.
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Old 08-17-2008   #79
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

Quote:
Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
It is the head coaches responsibility to develop the talent he is given. Period. I'm not advocating we dump Kubiak. What I'm tiring to point out is that they have failed with this prospect...a third round pick. I said at the time it was wrong to press the guy. I warned this would be the consequence if they pushed him too far too fast. Well now it's reached critical mass. In a year when they don't have a spare roster spot....they've got a hard choice to make with the guy.
My line is if you knew this prospect was raw....and you didn't have the time to develop him....why in the world is the prospect the villian here ? Not Jones' fault.
The guy was what he was when they drafted him. The guy is tiring....too hard from my view. Each time he makes a mistake...he's pressing harder. And then makes another mistake.

And psyches ....that's Kubiak's province. It's his job to get into the prospects brain and fix him. His job to manage the talent.
WRONG!! It is the coaches job to instruct a player on what he is doing that he should not be and also to give positive re-enforcement on the things they are doing right. It is up to the player to take that info apply it. When a guy succeeds I never hear about how it is because the coaches coddled him. I do hear how the coaches were harder on them and stressed what they needed to work on (Meaning the player).

Jerry Rice another small school guy who had fumble problems his rookie year worked harder longer than anyone else to get better. It was not on the coaches he put it on himself.

WOW I can not believe I am hearsing these excuses for a player.
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Old 08-17-2008   #80
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexanSam View Post
So Kubiak said Harry Williams has been great on special teams but has he gotten any reps as a WR?

I dont recall seeing Williams getting game time at WR ... I do however recall seeing him make a couple nice plays on ST.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Specnatz View Post
WRONG!! It is the coaches job to instruct a player on what he is doing that he should not be and also to give positive re-enforcement on the things they are doing right. It is up to the player to take that info apply it. When a guy succeeds I never hear about how it is because the coaches coddled him. I do hear how the coaches were harder on them and stressed what they needed to work on (Meaning the player).

Jerry Rice another small school guy who had fumble problems his rookie year worked harder longer than anyone else to get better. It was not on the coaches he put it on himself.

WOW I can not believe I am hearsing these excuses for a player.


We all know what excuses are like .... Kubiak wont take excuses from his players , You can take that to the bank .... We as fans should expect a professional to act the part .
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