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Old 07-23-2008   #21
barrett
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

i guess i don't even need to prove my point. thank you. the keys to me are that he made mistakes, he learned from them and we are progressing. every owner makes mistakes. he is getting better and the franchise is getting better. we're better off with an owner who has his head and heart (and wallet) in the right place. and he, much like kraft who they highlight as the number one guy, loves this town and this team and wants to do everything he can to win! win! win! but he want's to do it the right way. honestly and from the ground up, the inside out etc. that's exactly what you should be hoping for. for a team that is technically 7 years old we're in pretty damn good shape. the only thing this franchise hasn't done right thus far is win and we are fixing that daily. everything is in place. and the winning is well on the way. as long as we continue to improve in the win loss column then everything is exactly as it should be. 'nuf said.

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Old 07-23-2008   #22
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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Originally Posted by TexanBacker93 View Post
I don't think he's avoided taking any blame. I don't agree the he kept the 3 Cs too long. Well, yeah, hind sight says he did, but what did he have to go on at that time? In 2004 the team was 7-9 and it really looked like the team was ready to take that step. There were still many issues, of course, but the team seemed to be heading in the right direction. Year 4 was when the wheels fell off and we saw what a mess the coaching and front office was. Should McNair have fired Capers and Casserly between years 3 and 4 when the team seemed on the verge of a winning record and maybe a playoff berth?

Once the season got going and the team was so horrendous it was too late to do anything. He could have fired people during the season, but that rarely gets you anywhere. He wasn't going to get a top assistant from another team (Kubiak) to come in midseason. Yes, the team could have had an interim coach and then searched for a new one, but was there anyone on this staff that would have done better than Capers at that time? Once the season was done McNair made the right move. If he had given Capers another year I would say he made a mistake.

The same goes for Casserly. Firing him in mid season wouldn't help the team any. I would have liked to see him go in January and had Rick Smith earlier, but the 2005 draft has turned out ok for the team.

When McNair talked with coaching applicants it's pretty well documented that Carr was part of the discussion. The hypothesis is that one condition for getting the job was Carr was definitely the guy. Nobody except Kubiak and McNair will really know. Kubiak has not come out and said that he really didn't think Carr could do the job. I think he really thought he could get him straightened out. It's not like Carr never showed any flashes. He had moments. He has a tremendous arm. He is mobile. His worst flaw (in my opinion) is his decision making and that's why I and probably Kubiak as well thought things would be better.

McNair has made poor decisions, but I think he's been quick to correct the problems. I don't mind mistakes as long as they are addressed, fixed, and we move along. Maybe I'm too much of a homer.

Overall, I am happy that I have this city to call home. I am ecstatic to have the Texans to call my team. I have proud to have McNair and company as the foundation from which this organiztion is built.


In term of DC, don't forget that not only did McNair bring him up in interviews with potential HC's, prior to that, he brought in Dan Reeves to do an "Objective" evaluation of the talent - Carr at the top of the list.

There's some dispute about exactly what Reeves recommended, but I don't think anyone believes that McNair got any advice suggesting Carr had to go immediately.

Also, while it seems like a whole lot longer than a year to 15 months ago, I hope you will recall all the supposedly knowledgable football analysts who blamed the Texans for Carr's failure's and gushed about how he could flourish with a solid franchise and a good offensive line like Carolina had. At least McNair (with some help from Kubiak) figured it out before all of those guys.
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Old 07-23-2008   #23
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post
Carr never had a tremendous arm. yeah he could throw the ball hard and pretty accurately but his arm mechanics/arm trajectory are what got him into so much trouble in the pocket. that aint tremendous. he had to rely on rollouts and gaps in the pass rush and would normally just lock on one guy and if he couldnt get the ball out in 2 seconds he would just either dump the ball to the RB or do the Fresno Tuck.

oh and the guy was woefully inept at reading coverages and at understanding coverages and his own playbook. just an undedicated and unprofessional QB. as long as everyone in Houston kept making excuses for him, why did he have to try and get better. He was beyond reproach...after all he just wants to have fun.

Ok, so maybe I was a bit overzealous in my assessment of Carr.
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Old 07-24-2008   #24
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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Originally Posted by barrett View Post
i guess i don't even need to prove my point. thank you. the keys to me are that he made mistakes, he learned from them and we are progressing. every owner makes mistakes. he is getting better and the franchise is getting better. we're better off with an owner who has his head and heart (and wallet) in the right place. and he, much like kraft who they highlight as the number one guy, loves this town and this team and wants to do everything he can to win! win! win! but he want's to do it the right way. honestly and from the ground up, the inside out etc. that's exactly what you should be hoping for. for a team that is technically 7 years old we're in pretty damn good shape. the only thing this franchise hasn't done right thus far is win and we are fixing that daily. everything is in place. and the winning is well on the way. as long as we continue to improve in the win loss column then everything is exactly as it should be. 'nuf said.
I still don't think you can say that. It's an unfalsifiable statement. It's like saying the country is safer for Bush's "War on Terrorism." While it's true that we haven't experienced an attack since 9/11, there's no way to prove that is due to Bush's policies and no way to prove it won't happen in the future. In the same way, while it's true that McNair hasn't intervened in a place where he shouldn't since the Carr extension/Kubiak hire, there's no way to know that he won't in the future. Really, all you can say right now is that he is doing well staying out of the way of Smith and Kubiak and hope it stays that way. Call it learning from his mistakes if you want, and I hope that's true, but let's wait until he gets attached to the next Christian, choir boy on the team and see how it affects him.

Last edited by nero THE zero; 07-24-2008 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 07-24-2008   #25
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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Originally Posted by nero THE zero View Post
Obviously the hires of Rick Smith and Gary Kubiak were good decisions. And, our subsequent success have also been very good. But, I don't want to see that success misattributed to Bob McNair when it belongs to Smith and Kubiak. Things are going good right now and McNair is apparently standing back and letting the professionals do their job. That is fantastic and I hope it stays that way.

I guess I probably should have worded my last comment differently. When I said there was no evidence either way, I probably should have said, things are going good right now, but there has been a precedent set that McNair will stick his nose in places that he shouldn't when he has an emotional attachment to a player/coach/GM. Just because things are going good right now and he is standing back doesn't mean they will stay like that.

I guess my point is that McNair has acted in unsavory ways in the past, and the current success is really due to Kubiak and Smith moreso than McNair. That's not to say he's a bad owner, or not learning from his mistakes, just that he's made bad decisions in the past and it's possible he does it again.

But, I hope, just as you do, that he has learned that his strengths do not lie in football personell and that practice is over for him.
There is no evidence that McNair has done any unsavory moves as it relates to football decisions.

He's not a football guy, he trusts his football guys to make decisions for him. When the football guys were making poor decisions, he hired yet another football guy (Dan Reeves) to analyze their performance.

Consultancy is kinda goofy, but I'd rather the Texans be a team that gets rid of staff-players a little too late and in a respectful way than one that dumps them too quickly turning things into a perpetual revolving door (Redskins). There is no coaching change that could have been made during the 2005 season that would have made that anything other than an abomination. In the long run, it is what creates stability in the franchise and makes it a place where people want to go. People who remain with the organization or think about coming to it always look to how you treat the employees you dismiss. Good manners is often good business.

I think it is good to point out that before the catastrophic season of 2005, there were signs of optimism in 2004.

I have no problems with Bob McNair:

1. He brought football back to Houston by being someone who a. had money; b. could work with politicians and rodeo folks to get things done.

2. He cares about Houston.

3. He really tries to run an organization that is responsive to its fanbase.

4. He doesn't pretend to know more than he does about football...(ahem Jerry Jones).

5. He is not a ridiculous boob that wears goofy outfits, flips off people publicly, and has a dead possum on his head (the Bud). If you are going to have one person be the face of ownership, he is someone that doesn't make you cringe.

6. He recognizes that the 4th most populous city in America IS a large market team, and uses that to get the team the resources it needs.

7. He is not a cheapass. If you talk to any of the coaches, they say he is the perfect owner. That if there is equipment or coaches that they need, money is never an issue. You can't outspend people in the salary cap era on players, but you can do good things with facilities and the way you treat your coach staff and players to make it a place that they want to be.

8. There is no 8.

9. He doesn't make the football people do things for marketing reasons. The Texans coaching staff did not want Vince Young as quarterback because he didn't suit what they wanted to do. Some owners would have forced him on the team for marketing reasons. Some people think that Bob McNair should have forced them to pick Vince Young, but I prefer an owner that doesn't work that way.

10. And he isn't a complete caretaker owner that puts off everything on the GM unquestioningly, like the situation in Detroit. McNair wants to know why the team is doing certain things.
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Old 07-24-2008   #26
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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You can not have it both ways, if he is responsible for failures then he is also responsible for the success. You also say he sticks his nose where he should not, EXCUSE the hell of out him he OWNS the team and he has that right.

You blame him for sticking with the 3C's to long but that is because he let those stay to long. If he had not stuck his nose in they would still be here. Every owner will not be right 100% of the time but you act like he is Al Davis and constantly undermining his Coaches and or GM. His first hires went bad, we all lived through it and it was tough but he is not this moron you are making him out to be.
McNair is ULTIMATELY responsible for good/bad decisions based on the personnel he brings in to make those everyday football decisions. Surround yourself with gimps like the three C's and you look like a fool. Surround yourself with the likes of Kubes and Rick Smith, you look like a genius (hopefully).

I agree that McNair is probably working with a steep learning curve and it doesn't strike me that he'll be prone to repeat the same mistakes that he did in the past with sticking with people too long who are consistently failing.

I think Casserly was able to sell McNair on a lot of bad decisions and players and McNair didn't know any better because he didn't have the experience and he trusted his "football" guys. As with any organization, you're really only as strong as those in your second line of command. Those are the folks that run operations. McNair just supplies the money, the vision and the goals.

I think he's turned his second line of command around completely and has stocked the team with true football guys...guys who are smart and savvy and experienced and have vision, which I think 2 of the 3 C's lacked. McNair's no dummy...he's turned this ship around and is just waiting to reap the rewards of an up and coming team.
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Old 07-24-2008   #27
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
There is no evidence that McNair has done any unsavory moves as it relates to football decisions.

He's not a football guy, he trusts his football guys to make decisions for him. When the football guys were making poor decisions, he hired yet another football guy (Dan Reeves) to analyze their performance.

Consultancy is kinda goofy, but I'd rather the Texans be a team that gets rid of staff-players a little too late and in a respectful way than one that dumps them too quickly turning things into a perpetual revolving door (Redskins). There is no coaching change that could have been made during the 2005 season that would have made that anything other than an abomination. In the long run, it is what creates stability in the franchise and makes it a place where people want to go. People who remain with the organization or think about coming to it always look to how you treat the employees you dismiss. Good manners is often good business.

I think it is good to point out that before the catastrophic season of 2005, there were signs of optimism in 2004.

I have no problems with Bob McNair:

1. He brought football back to Houston by being someone who a. had money; b. could work with politicians and rodeo folks to get things done.

2. He cares about Houston.

3. He really tries to run an organization that is responsive to its fanbase.

4. He doesn't pretend to know more than he does about football...(ahem Jerry Jones).

5. He is not a ridiculous boob that wears goofy outfits, flips off people publicly, and has a dead possum on his head (the Bud). If you are going to have one person be the face of ownership, he is someone that doesn't make you cringe.
6. He recognizes that the 4th most populous city in America IS a large market team, and uses that to get the team the resources it needs.

7. He is not a cheapass. If you talk to any of the coaches, they say he is the perfect owner. That if there is equipment or coaches that they need, money is never an issue. You can't outspend people in the salary cap era on players, but you can do good things with facilities and the way you treat your coach staff and players to make it a place that they want to be.

8. There is no 8.

9. He doesn't make the football people do things for marketing reasons. The Texans coaching staff did not want Vince Young as quarterback because he didn't suit what they wanted to do. Some owners would have forced him on the team for marketing reasons. Some people think that Bob McNair should have forced them to pick Vince Young, but I prefer an owner that doesn't work that way.

10. And he isn't a complete caretaker owner that puts off everything on the GM unquestioningly, like the situation in Detroit. McNair wants to know why the team is doing certain things.

QFT!! Right on Steph!... (I especially loved the bolded comments).
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Old 07-24-2008   #28
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

I like McNair. I was upset that he let Casserley fool him for so long and I thought we would have had a winning record by now.

I have to disagree with this:

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
9. He doesn't make the football people do things for marketing reasons. The Texans coaching staff did not want Vince Young as quarterback because he didn't suit what they wanted to do. Some owners would have forced him on the team for marketing reasons. Some people think that Bob McNair should have forced them to pick Vince Young, but I prefer an owner that doesn't work that way.
I believe he forced Carr on all prospective coaches because McNair personally liked Carr and Carr’s clean cut image.
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Old 07-24-2008   #29
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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Originally Posted by nero THE zero View Post
I still don't think you can say that. It's an unfalsifiable statement. It's like saying the country is safer for Bush's "War on Terrorism." While it's true that we haven't experienced an attack since 9/11, there's no way to prove that is due to Bush's policies and no way to prove it won't happen in the future. In the same way, while it's true that McNair hasn't intervened in a place where he shouldn't since the Carr extension/Kubiak hire, there's no way to know that he won't in the future. Really, all you can say right now is that he is doing well staying out of the way of Smith and Kubiak and hope it stays that way. Call it learning from his mistakes if you want, and I hope that's true, but let's wait until he gets attached to the next Christian, choir boy on the team and see how it affects him.
huh? i'm not going to get into weather or not the country is safer because some monkey hasn't been attacked. by your analogy we'll have to refrain from assessing McNair until um... well... when he get's voted out? or is that still not it? i don't really understand your logic because there really isn't any. and the only similarity that i can see is that bush has intervened where he shouldn't have. but that's another topic for another oil man. oh, maybe McNair is the guy to talk to.

thank god football season starts at 8:30 on friday morning.

go texans.
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Old 07-24-2008   #30
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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huh? i'm not going to get into weather or not the country is safer because some monkey hasn't been attacked. by your analogy we'll have to refrain from assessing McNair until um... well... when he get's voted out? or is that still not it? i don't really understand your logic because there really isn't any. and the only similarity that i can see is that bush has intervened where he shouldn't have. but that's another topic for another oil man. oh, maybe McNair is the guy to talk to.

thank god football season starts at 8:30 on friday morning.

go texans.
Barrett, why do you feel a need to further confuse the issue by bringing up global warming?!

You're right, though. Just because it's 100 degrees in Austin every freakin' day, doesn't mean that the Texans will only win 6 games... I hope this clears up the confusion.
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Old 07-24-2008   #31
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

because thats exactly why McNair cannot be judged on his current merits! why can you not see my analogy about the "weather" and the "heat"! duh! geez!!!
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Old 07-24-2008   #32
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

Bob McNair also ranks Yahoo at #7.
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Old 07-26-2008   #33
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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I believe he forced Carr on all prospective coaches because McNair personally liked Carr and Carr’s clean cut image.
FWIW, I have talked to people within the Texans who I trust not to give me a bunch of puff who have told me that McNair did not force Carr on Kubiak.
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Old 07-26-2008   #34
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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Bob McNair also ranks Yahoo at #7.
heehee.
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Old 07-26-2008   #35
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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FWIW, I have talked to people within the Texans who I trust not to give me a bunch of puff who have told me that McNair did not force Carr on Kubiak.
Interesting!

If that's true, then it was likely a situation of Kubes believing he had the ability to succeed in developing a player where other coaches in the past haven't. Certainly not an unusual position for any NFL coach to take, even if it often backfires on them. At least he figured it out, and cut his losses fairly quickly (the on-field losses, not McNair's financial losses related to the contract renewal).

I'd like to think that at this point, Kubes still has that swagger about his ability to coach-up the talent, but that Rick Smith can kind of provide a voice of reason regarding talent evaluation when needed. I don't know that's true, I just hope it is, but I do know that I've been pretty impressed with the Kubiak/Smith team so far.
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Old 07-27-2008   #36
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
There is no evidence that McNair has done any unsavory moves as it relates to football decisions.

He's not a football guy, he trusts his football guys to make decisions for him. When the football guys were making poor decisions, he hired yet another football guy (Dan Reeves) to analyze their performance.

Consultancy is kinda goofy, but I'd rather the Texans be a team that gets rid of staff-players a little too late and in a respectful way than one that dumps them too quickly turning things into a perpetual revolving door (Redskins). There is no coaching change that could have been made during the 2005 season that would have made that anything other than an abomination. In the long run, it is what creates stability in the franchise and makes it a place where people want to go. People who remain with the organization or think about coming to it always look to how you treat the employees you dismiss. Good manners is often good business.

I think it is good to point out that before the catastrophic season of 2005, there were signs of optimism in 2004.

I have no problems with Bob McNair:

1. He brought football back to Houston by being someone who a. had money; b. could work with politicians and rodeo folks to get things done.

2. He cares about Houston.

3. He really tries to run an organization that is responsive to its fanbase.

4. He doesn't pretend to know more than he does about football...(ahem Jerry Jones).

5. He is not a ridiculous boob that wears goofy outfits, flips off people publicly, and has a dead possum on his head (the Bud). If you are going to have one person be the face of ownership, he is someone that doesn't make you cringe.

6. He recognizes that the 4th most populous city in America IS a large market team, and uses that to get the team the resources it needs.

7. He is not a cheapass. If you talk to any of the coaches, they say he is the perfect owner. That if there is equipment or coaches that they need, money is never an issue. You can't outspend people in the salary cap era on players, but you can do good things with facilities and the way you treat your coach staff and players to make it a place that they want to be.

8. There is no 8.

9. He doesn't make the football people do things for marketing reasons. The Texans coaching staff did not want Vince Young as quarterback because he didn't suit what they wanted to do. Some owners would have forced him on the team for marketing reasons. Some people think that Bob McNair should have forced them to pick Vince Young, but I prefer an owner that doesn't work that way.

10. And he isn't a complete caretaker owner that puts off everything on the GM unquestioningly, like the situation in Detroit. McNair wants to know why the team is doing certain things.
11. He was instrumental in bringing a SuperBowl back to Houston, and is still working on bringing another.
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Old 07-27-2008   #37
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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FWIW, I have talked to people within the Texans who I trust not to give me a bunch of puff who have told me that McNair did not force Carr on Kubiak.
This has always been one of those media/fan suppositions--might be true but there was zero evidence for it.
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Old 07-27-2008   #38
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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FWIW, I have talked to people within the Texans who I trust not to give me a bunch of puff who have told me that McNair did not force Carr on Kubiak.
Maybe ... maybe not. Unless your name is McNair, Casserly or Reeves you'll probably never know.

I think ownership and front office went into the interview process desperately hoping that 'a Kubiak' could rescue Carr from the gutter, and eventually they convinced themselves that Kubiak could. It probably wasn't a dictate, but I suspect it was the prevailing mindset leading up to the interviews.
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Old 07-27-2008   #39
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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FWIW, I have talked to people within the Texans who I trust not to give me a bunch of puff who have told me that McNair did not force Carr on Kubiak.
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Maybe ... maybe not. Unless your name is McNair, Casserly or Reeves you'll probably never know.
That would mean Kubes himself doesn't know! Wow, they did a really good job of keeping this one top secret.

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Old 07-27-2008   #40
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Default Re: Yahoo Ranks Bob McNair At #7

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That would mean Kubes himself doesn't know! Wow, they did a really good job of keeping this one top secret.
I thought Kubiak being in the know was kind of a given, but thanks for the clarification.

In terms of McNair the owner, I think he's doing a great job. He admits mistakes and admits learning from them. He's well spoken, professional, well respected, and appears to have righted the ship. Now all we need are some playoff years.

Last edited by aj.; 07-27-2008 at 03:43 PM.
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