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Old 12-16-2004   #1
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Default The Other Side Of The Notre Dame Story

If your mind is made up and you don't want to be bothered by the facts then don't read this.

This is just one paragraph of a writers view of the happenings at Notre Dame the last three weeks.....from the NDNations.com web site
It a very interesting story that college football fans can appreciate. It covers several topics.

"In fact, both Florida and Stanford recently fired their coaches after three years and no one questioned their motives. Oklahoma replaced John Blake (a black football coach) with Bob Stoops (a white football coach) and no one cried racism. Yet the media tells you that Notre Dame has sold its soul (again) for taking the same actions. Much of the vitriol this time stems from the fact that Tyrone Willingham is almost universally respected and no one wants to see such a man fail. But it's also fueled the understandable outcry over the pathetically small number of African American coaches leading big-time programs. Credit incoming President Father Jenkins for not flinching in the face of such pressures. He recently said, "We welcome that scrutiny... we think we have it because we have high ideals for our program. We are going to keep them, and we are going to meet them."

Read the whole story

Guess you can tell that I am a Notre Dame fan.

cac
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Old 12-16-2004   #2
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Question--how long were the Florida and Stanford coaches' contracts and if they were longer than 3 years did those schools have a history of letting coaches finish out their 1st contracts? Not letting Willingham finish out his 1st contract when prior coaches have seems to be what most folks crying racism are hanging their hats on.
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Old 12-16-2004   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
Question--how long were the Florida and Stanford coaches' contracts and if they were longer than 3 years did those schools have a history of letting coaches finish out their 1st contracts? Not letting Willingham finish out his 1st contract when prior coaches have seems to be what most folks crying racism are hanging their hats on.
Looked up Blakes contract
(another african american coach that was fired)

Blake had two years remaining on a five-year contract that paid him $501,000 annually, a number that will certainly rise -- some have suggested it might double -- if the Sooners hope to land some of the replacements they are supposedly considering. Donnan, for example, makes around $625,000 at Georgia.


Here is another paragraph from the article...if you are truly wishing to be informed you should read the article.

"There is talk in some quarters that buying out his contract somehow translated into dishonoring his contract. This is a red herring that is patently false and spread by those ignorant of the facts. Willingham negotiated for and agreed to this performance based multi-million dollar buyout when he signed his contract three years ago. Say it again, “he negotiated for it." One more time, “he negotiated for it.” He negotiated a specific performance clause that kicked in at the end of the third year and he failed to meet it. He knew the three year standard required of him when he signed on; it was in writing and agreed to by his hand. Buying out coach Willingham honored both the letter and the spirit of the contract. "


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Old 12-16-2004   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
Not letting Willingham finish out his 1st contract when prior coaches have seems to be what most folks crying racism are hanging their hats on...
I believe Bob Davis was taking ND to a BCS bowl at the end of his third year. Willingham isn't. The fact that the two were treated differently after their third year may have more to do with this than race.

Major college football is Big Business (even if it shouldn't be). In big business, you don't let someone finish out two more years if you know it isn't working. Who does that help? You pay him out and move on.

The real risk in this situation is that it may discourage other institutions from hiring African American head coaches if they feel they will be under additional scutiny if they have to let him go.

It may be that coach Willingham was a great guy and a great coach, who wasn't getting it done (based on recent perfomance and preception of what is sitting in the program under his leadership). He certainly has excelled in other positions. Hopefully, Washington will work out for both parties.
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Old 12-17-2004   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistril48
I believe Bob Davis was taking ND to a BCS bowl at the end of his third year. Willingham isn't. The fact that the two were treated differently after their third year may have more to do with this than race.
I wasn't claiming racism was involved. My post started with a request for information. I agree different results can result in different treatment. Just pointing out what I had heard people squawking about.
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Old 12-17-2004   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hetero doxy
i happen to know tyrone willingham personally. you are quite the not-know-it-all to write a sentence like this.

nobody has claimed notre dame unlawfully broke a contract. don't be absurd. of course such a clause existed for it to be exercised.

notre dame plays the toughest schedule in the nation. unlike UT, OU and the like, notre dame will play a top team on the road without bringing its own officials along. notre dame had some quality wins this year, at home over mich and on the road against tennessee.

the claim is the administration "panicked" quicker than they did with, say, gerry faust. after all, willingham had major college credibility going for him, while faust had none (he was a high school coach before getting the job). yes, people wonder out loud about race, esp with guys like paul hornung shooting their mouths off about eugenecist notions linking race with intellect.

if you want to argue X's and O's regarding the firing, then do so. but leave your vacuous take of the contract out of it.


My opinion of the contract is no more vacuous than yours. Had to look up the word vacuous, nice. Did your personal friend Ty Willingham discuss his contract with you before he signed it? Have you talked with him since his dismissal to get his "take" on it? Did he bother to tell you that the three year performance clause was his and his agents idea? I doubt it.
If you had bothered to read the article you would see that this was Scott Michael Edwards (the reporter) "take" of the contract, I only agreed with it.
I think I can place you in the "my mind is made up catagory".
IMHO this is the reason more Div 1 universities don't hire minority coaches. A university would be setting itself up to be called racist if the coaches don't perform and are dismissed. It would be too convenient for minority apologists to ignore the fact that a minority was hired and given a chance to succeed or fail on their own merit.
Notre Dame panicked?? Don't think so. Your comparison with Faust is right on the mark....did you notice that things did not get better with time when Faust was there. Not with Bob Davie for that matter, and Davie did have previous major college credibility going for him. Maybe you have heard the saying "you learn from your mistakes or you are doomed to repeat them".
As for Paul Horning, I do not believe that he is employed by the University of Notre Dame. He does not speak for the University and his opinions are his own. He has his, you obviously have yours.
As for the Xs and Os of the firing. Yes, the Irish did beat Michigan and Tennessee, they also lost to BYU and Boston College. This inconsistency was one of the complaints during Willinghams tenure.
And no....unlike some people, I am not a know it all nor do I claim to be.

cac
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Old 12-17-2004   #7
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Question Hetero Doxy

Quote:
Originally Posted by hetero doxy
wow. i'd thought this kind of rationalization of racism had pretty much vanished.

ty has hundreds of friends in the rice university community. we think the world of him and wish him the best.
Wow.....You are in denial!

I call it conviction or opinion.....you call it rationalization of racism.
I'm no more a racist than you are. It's a shame people can't discuss events without being labeled.

Just so you know, I am glad Ty has friends in the Rice university community, I am sure he has friends in the Notre Dame community as well. No one I know of has smeared his character or called him names. The only thing that has happened is the University of Notre Dame dismissed a football coach that they felt had not shown improvement in the football program. Your point of contention seems to be the three year time period he was given. Willingham, according to the president of the University of Notre Dame, was the first coach in school history to insist on having the three year performance clause in his contract, hence the three year time frame. I do not know if the clause required a raise for performance after three years or not? I am sure it required the University to buy out the remainder of his contract ( pay him to leave) if there was no increased performance and they decide to replace him. Next time you talk to your friend maybe you can ask him. If it did require a raise I can see why the University chose to dismiss him instead. There was no increased performance after the three years, just the opposite.

BTW Did you read the article I linked, in its entirety? Or did you just come after me with your preconceived illusions intact. Have you done any research on the particulars of what happened, or are you satisfied to just assume racism in everything you read and hear?

cac
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