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Old 12-14-2004   #1
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Default why is Fangio the "golden boy" and Palmer the "Goat"?

I continue to not understand the logic of people on here. Fire Palmer after every loss. we win and nothing said.

1st Offense
Far from perfect. But has had major setbacks since the expansion draft (boselli never worked and Young flopped). There were our bookends on the line.. We draft a QB and put him in the fire the 1st year and he got manhandled. Playcalling was vanilla and was to protect him from getting hurt. 2nd year we get 2 new starters (AJ and DD) and a 3rd that never materialized (Joppru injury). Offense improved but not much. This season we changed blocking schemes (I don't know why at this point) added a new LT and offense is in the middle of the pack.. but redzone offense stinks and we don't have a complete TE still and a RB that is basically a solid player but not a "triplet" like everyone thinks. Offense still needs LOTS of work and more complete weapons

defense.
since day one we have had 2 probowlers (walker and glenn), another 2 that should have been probowlers in 2004 (sharper and Coleman). We get everyone back healthy and yet can't stop anyone on 3rd downs and defense is hovering in the back of the NFL. yet no complaints. BTW we have 18 sacks now only the raiders have less (17) and the lowly colts defense is #2 with 41

maybe I am just unrealistic and expect more from our defense being they are the veterans and the steady group out there, but I am sick of the 3rd and longs that we can't stop for some reason or another, yet the defense is the ones making the noise about "changes" ... Stop someone on third down if you want to change something.
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Old 12-14-2004   #2
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Because since their inception, the Texans have not had one single game that the offense was effective or productive the whole game. The defense runs hot and cold, but usually does their part. A big part of the reason that the defense is ranked so low is because the offense can't/won't keep them off the field. 3 and outs are all too common under Palmer's philosophy. A tired defense is an ineffective defense. Not to mention all of the times that the defense has come thru with a big turnover or really good field position only to have the offense do absolutely nothing with it. The only consistency the offensive has really had is getting the punter lots of punts.
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Old 12-14-2004   #3
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is that palmers fault?
2002 Carr,Gaffney,Wells (err james allen), miller was the weapons?

with a Pitts at LT as a rookie?
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Old 12-14-2004   #4
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my point is that the offense hasn't had solid players on the field (except AJ) compared to the defense.. but the issue of firing the OC comes up all the time
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Old 12-14-2004   #5
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I think it's probably just that we've watched the defense be put in one jam after another by the offense. In 2002 the defense kept this team in so many games while the offense was just plain inept. In one game the defense flat out did it all that year. In the second season we saw so many guys on the defense go down while the offense reigned it in and played a frustrating to watch (but necessary at the time) conservative as all hell style of football. The offense wasn't very good last season and so they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't. If they played it conservative they were going to stall often and put the defense back on the field. If they went buck wild and started throwing the ball like a lot of people wanted they were going to get Carr killed and then stall, again putting the depleted defense back on the field.

They chose the one that had the best chance of working (conservative) and not getting the QB killed and then what do you know, he got killed anyway. Then Banks got his hand broken and Ragone got mauled. It was just ugly. It looked bad and it added fuel to the fire. Fans wanted to see the new monster reciever go be Randy Moss right out of the gate and they were much more likely to show the defense sympathy for it's injuries after they played so well in 2002.

Now we're in 2004 and the defense is starting some rookies and incorporating some new guys in new spots (for them) and people are giving them more slack (generally). It doesn't help that when the defense does show up the offense takes a day off (or at least a half off).
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Old 12-14-2004   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottle-O-Bud
Cause Palmer sucks and Faggio is decent durrrrrrrr... uhhhhh....duhhhh

Let me explain to you folks who don't have a degree from MIT.

Carr has the audible skills of a retarded monkey! Even if Carr is indeed a retarded monkey, Palmer is still resposible of teaching a retarded monkey to call the proper plays. The fact that Carr still calls retarded audibles after 3 years, is a sign that we have a retarded OC. OR we could have a retarded OC and a retarded QB. Either way we need to get rid of the retard(s)!


Or may be... "Bottle-O-Bud is retarded"..... I saw that comming a mile a way smart alex! Yeah yeah yeah..... "you said that I didn't". Got you again.. PREDICTABLE!!!
fangio is ok . Palmer stinks ..yet our defense is ranked pretty low .. hmm
fangio has skilled players to work with compared to our offense hmm

Last edited by Wolf; 12-14-2004 at 12:38 AM.
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Old 12-14-2004   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hervoyel
I think it's probably just that we've watched the defense be put in one jam after another by the offense. In 2002 the defense kept this team in so many games while the offense was just plain inept. In one game the defense flat out did it all that year. In the second season we saw so many guys on the defense go down while the offense reigned it in and played a frustrating to watch (but necessary at the time) conservative as all hell style of football. The offense wasn't very good last season and so they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't. If they played it conservative they were going to stall often and put the defense back on the field. If they went buck wild and started throwing the ball like a lot of people wanted they were going to get Carr killed and then stall, again putting the depleted defense back on the field.

They chose the one that had the best chance of working (conservative) and not getting the QB killed and then what do you know, he got killed anyway. Then Banks got his hand broken and Ragone got mauled. It was just ugly. It looked bad and it added fuel to the fire. Fans wanted to see the new monster reciever go be Randy Moss right out of the gate and they were much more likely to show the defense sympathy for it's injuries after they played so well in 2002.

Now we're in 2004 and the defense is starting some rookies and incorporating some new guys in new spots (for them) and people are giving them more slack (generally). It doesn't help that when the defense does show up the offense takes a day off (or at least a half off).

I agree, but when it came to the offense.. no slack was given in the 1st few years.. and if any complaint I had about the offense is that it seems at times Carr can't read a defense.
and yes that part would be coaching..
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Old 12-14-2004   #8
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Our defense doesn't do it's part to get off the field.. Payne,Walker,smith aren't rookies and do have talent (at least their contract says so) and we can't get a pass rush or stop people on 3rd down..
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Old 12-14-2004   #9
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The offense has some issues with talent, but not to the degree that the defense does, especially in the secondary. When the Texans win games or are in close games it is almost always because the defense played a very solid game. It is the job of the Coordinators to get whatever talent they have to be at the least effective. The Texans offense still makes 1st year mistakes all of the time here towards the end of the 3rd year. Who's to blame for the offense not being prepared? Easy answer, Palmer.
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Old 12-14-2004   #10
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and fangio should be blamed for our mistakes.. i.e 3rd down conversion and sacks.

we dont' get pressure on the qb and yet we have expensive guys on the line
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Old 12-14-2004   #11
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I personally feel we have more playmakers on defense than offense and yet our defense doesn't live up to expectations.. (I expect more from the offense,but they dont' have the weapons)
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Old 12-14-2004   #12
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Houston is ranked 16th overall in defense (yards) 7th overall in % 3rd down made... unless I'm totally reading it wrong - which is possible.

nfl stats

29th in passing completion %, 17th in yards per run, 13th in avg .points per game....


So, that's probably one reason fans feel it's Palmer season and not Fangio season. </Elmer Fudd voice>
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Old 12-14-2004   #13
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Here are the simple stats:

13th Offense
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statis...on=2&year=2004
29th Defense
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statis...on=2&year=2004

Now if you look at scoring O and D:
21st Scoring Offense
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statis...on=2&year=2004
29th Scoring Defense
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statis...on=2&year=2004

We clearly need to finish drives better offensively, but we need to get better overall defensively.
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Old 12-14-2004   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A4toZ
Houston is ranked 16th overall in defense (yards) 7th overall in % 3rd down made... unless I'm totally reading it wrong - which is possible.

nfl stats

29th in passing completion %, 17th in yards per run, 13th in avg .points per game....


So, that's probably one reason fans feel it's Palmer season and not Fangio season. </Elmer Fudd voice>
You are looking at the 2002 defense.

Here is 2004
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Old 12-14-2004   #15
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IMO, Wolf has a very good point. The defense SHOULD be a much more solid unit at this point in time than the offense. More experienced quality players and it is easier/quicker to have a defense come together than an offense and yet they are not very good. I believe it was Vinny that mentioned that Fangio has been critisized before for using a passive and very complex scheme. I think we are WAY to passive on defense and need to start making things happen (sort of like this last Sunday) and stop trying to just react to what the offense is doing.
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Old 12-14-2004   #16
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I'll just ask one simple question that in a small way sums up some of my problems with the Capers/Palmer offense.

Do you think Mike Tice would make Randy Moss virtually not part of the game plan because the defense was running a cover 2?
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Old 12-14-2004   #17
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if theres one thing i can say thats good about this years D, is the arrival of Robinson, Babin, and Earl ! Now that dont look like a very shabby future on D to me, does it ???? And well the O has taken a big step back from the first part of the season ! And well about the coaches "No comment" !!!
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Old 12-14-2004   #18
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Though the haven't played great this year, you can see the D, especially the younger guys, really starting to come around. They do need to force more turnovers, though. The offense seems to be stuck in one spot. There is too much talent on the offense to not be able to generate something. It just doesn't seem like there is ever a cohesive or complete game plan from Palmer.
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Old 12-14-2004   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porky
I'll just ask one simple question that in a small way sums up some of my problems with the Capers/Palmer offense.

Do you think Mike Tice would make Randy Moss virtually not part of the game plan because the defense was running a cover 2?
Agreed, yet. Minnesota's backs can break a long one and Carr is no Dante.. Dante can move.

One thing about Dante...He knows where he is going a lot quicker than Carr does.. He reads through his progressions a lot faster than Carr (and I am talking about when our OL does give Carr time).and when Daunte runs he runs with a purpose.. Carr seems to hesitate a looks downfield(which isn't a bad thing) but seems at times if Carr just ran he would pick up yards.
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Old 12-14-2004   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porky
Do you think Mike Tice would make Randy Moss virtually not part of the game plan because the defense was running a cover 2?
We call deep patterns, we send aj out. We send Gaffney out. We send them deep, short, and long. Choosing the WR to throw to falls on the quarterback. When you lock on to your first option then go right to your safety valve you will have an offense that looks much like ours.
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