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Old 05-12-2008   #21
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

Tons of DL draft prospects get labeled as taking plays off. Sure some do, but I think a lot of draft guys look at a guy like Mario and expect him to dominate every play and if he doesn't they write it up as taking plays off rather than some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you.

I did witness a very heated confrontation between Mario, Kalu and Franklin last year--Mario was trying to talk to Franklin who was ignoring him (Franklin was kneeling talking to a couple other DLmen whose identity was obscure sitting on the bench) and Kalu was getting more and more volatile and had to be restrained by Maddox (I believe it was Maddox).

Flip side--Franklin is also flexible enough that he was letting Mario decide at the line where he wanted to line up at the end of the year.
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Old 05-12-2008   #22
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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I'm not saying you are. And Franklin should use whatever motivational techniques he deems fit. But if you look at Okoye's numbers from the 1st 9 games (24 tackles, 5 sacks), and his last 7 (8 tackles, 0.5 sacks), it seems like an obvious example of hitting the rookie wall.
To be fair, there is a lot more that goes on than what we see on the field. Just because he was being productive on Sundays doesn't mean he was doing his due dilligence in the film room or on the practice field. Afterall, the chewing out he recieved this weekend had nothing to do with gameday and everything to do with his (lack of) effort on the practice field.

I'm not pretending that I know something that other people don't. I'm just saying; if Kubiak is making pointed comments at him in pressers, if he is getting taken out of the starting line-up as punishment, if our d-line coach specifically mentions "private issues" with Amobi, then there might be more going on than the "rookie wall." I'm not arguing semantics here and I'm not saying that it is definitely laziness, but there is obviously an issue here that goes beyond the "rookie wall."

And I assume this goes without saying, but Amobi has my full support and I think he will have a very long and productive career. He's just probably battling some maturity issues or something.

Last edited by nero THE zero; 05-12-2008 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 05-12-2008   #23
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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Well, like I said, nothing has been explicitly stated. But there were several indicators last season that there was something in Amobi's work ethic that they didn't like. As I mentioned, there was a game last season that he didn't start because he was "in trouble." I don't really have the time or the means to go back and find a link, but Franklin speaks of it in the 1560 interview:

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/...ario-and-more/


So, call it what you will, but I'm not making up things here.

I think anyone is reading too much into everything to suggest that Okoye's issue is "being lazy." There are any number of issues between a player and coach that they might want to keep quiet. If a player has a technique issue, for instance, you may not want to talk about it because it might be helpful for your opponents to know. And, they want to build trust between a player and coach that was is said is private. So that neither coach or player feels the need to blab to the media. And just because a player was not a starter for a game, doesn't mean it was for laziness. It could be a number of things--violation of team rules, etc.

This is the time of year where people want to read too much into everything because we are going nuts because nothing is going on.
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Old 05-12-2008   #24
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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I think anyone is reading too much into everything to suggest that Okoye's issue is "being lazy." There are any number of issues between a player and coach that they might want to keep quiet. If a player has a technique issue, for instance, you may not want to talk about it because it might be helpful for your opponents to know. And, they want to build trust between a player and coach that was is said is private. So that neither coach or player feels the need to blab to the media. And just because a player was not a starter for a game, doesn't mean it was for laziness. It could be a number of things--violation of team rules, etc.

This is the time of year where people want to read too much into everything because we are going nuts because nothing is going on.
What do you make of it TC?

There was pre-draft buzz regarding Amobi's "maturity issues" before last season. Kubiak had made certain pointed comments regarding Amobi's development last season. Kubiak sat Amobi out of the starting line-up a game last season for an unidentified incident. And now this incident on the practice field this weekend.

Each thing is innocuous by itself, but together they clearly spell out an issue to me. I don't think it is a major issue. I don't think it's Pac-Mac or Chris Henry-esque; not even in the same ballpark. But I think it's something.

I mean, I don't think a player gets taken out of the starting line-up for one game for "technique issues" or "hitting the rookie wall." That's the most telling thing for me. And Kubiak said something along the same lines Franklin did as it being "a personal matter." To say that he has chronic concerns is a bit over the top, but I think to brush it off as nothing is as well.
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Old 05-12-2008   #25
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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What do you make of it TC?

There was pre-draft buzz regarding Amobi's "maturity issues" before last season. Kubiak had made certain pointed comments regarding Amobi's development last season. Kubiak sat Amobi out of the starting line-up a game last season for an unidentified incident. And now this incident on the practice field this weekend.

Each thing is innocuous by itself, but together they clearly spell out an issue to me. I don't think it is a major issue. I don't think it's Pac-Mac or Chris Henry-esque; not even in the same ballpark. But I think it's something.
one of the problems with taking the "youngest player ever" is the fact that he is, well....young. Wasn't he a teen when he was drafted? Part of the risk of the kid was taking him before he matured fully. 'Seemingly mature' doesn't equate to being mature in many cases....if that is even an issue. I tend to agree with TC on this right now though....boring time of year = goofy speculation sometimes. I wasn't overly impressed with his game last year...but he flashed talent, no doubt about that (as a passrusher...not so much as a run stopper). Time to do more than flash this season if he is going to prove to be a better pick than Revis or a number of guys picked after him that has played well that we could have used.
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Old 05-12-2008   #26
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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For what it is worth, I had the same impression as well. I don't know if it is just a criticism of d-lineman in general, but it seems that a lot of our d-lineman have had "motor" issues. When we drafted TJ (and even after his first two seasons in the league) he was crtiticized for not giving his best effort. In know coming out of college, Mario was knocked for taking plays off.

I think the coaches approach to the players is at least in part, to these issues. Clearly, Mario and TJ have responded to this approach. I don't know why, but I have a feeling that this won't be a problem for Amobi - my gut tells me that this guy is a hard worker and that his issues were more of a conditioning/ rookie issue last year.

Of all of these guys, I think Okam has the most to gain from this coaching technique. A lot has been said about Okam and his production late in his college career. I don't think we should under estimate that he went through several different d-coordinators at UT. Also, don't under estimate that the UT coaches have develpoed a reputation dealing too softly with their players. In Okam's case (as well as other UT players), I think this resulted in relying too much on physical ability (rather than technique) and just not giving in 100% on every play. If Okam responds to this approach, I think we will have gotten a steal late in the draft.

Okam question from someone who doesn't watch UT football:

How was the rest of Okam's line at UT? Is it possible that the rest of his line made him look better, or was he the superstar on that line? Just wondering.
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Old 05-12-2008   #27
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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What do you make of it TC?

There was pre-draft buzz regarding Amobi's "maturity issues" before last season. Kubiak had made certain pointed comments regarding Amobi's development last season. Kubiak sat Amobi out of the starting line-up a game last season for an unidentified incident. And now this incident on the practice field this weekend.

Each thing is innocuous by itself, but together they clearly spell out an issue to me. I don't think it is a major issue. I don't think it's Pac-Mac or Chris Henry-esque; not even in the same ballpark. But I think it's something.

I mean, I don't think a player gets taken out of the starting line-up for one game for "technique issues" or "hitting the rookie wall." That's the most telling thing for me. And Kubiak said something along the same lines Franklin did as it being "a personal matter." To say that he has chronic concerns is a bit over the top, but I think to brush it off as nothing is as well.
I think someone would get taken out of the starting line-up for just such things if the fall-off in performance (due to "hitting the wall") or lack of effectiveness (due to "technique issues") brought down the effectiveness of the whole unit. Taking the affected player out of the lineup is exactly the right thing to do until their performance is back where it belongs. If that one week gives the player a chance to recover or correct his technique, then why not?



....and it will be rather slow until OTAs start, huh?
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Old 05-12-2008   #28
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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I think someone would get taken out of the starting line-up for just such things if the fall-off in performance (due to "hitting the wall") or lack of effectiveness (due to "technique issues") brought down the effectiveness of the whole unit. Taking the affected player out of the lineup is exactly the right thing to do until their performance is back where it belongs. If that one week gives the player a chance to recover or correct his technique, then why not?



....and it will be rather slow until OTAs start, huh?
:
The strangest aspect if that were the case, however, would be that Okoye was back in the game on the second play and stayed in for the rest of the game. If he were benched for a lack of performance, he'd be relegated to Faggins duty, not still logging in a ton of minutes directly after Anthony Maddox, who replaced him, recorded a sack on the first play of the game.
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Old 05-12-2008   #29
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
I think someone would get taken out of the starting line-up for just such things if the fall-off in performance (due to "hitting the wall") or lack of effectiveness (due to "technique issues") brought down the effectiveness of the whole unit. Taking the affected player out of the lineup is exactly the right thing to do until their performance is back where it belongs. If that one week gives the player a chance to recover or correct his technique, then why not?



....and it will be rather slow until OTAs start, huh?
:
Well, it doesn't help that Kubiak stated Okoye wasn't starting for disciplinary reasons. Which is what my point was.

I guess I should have made that more clear.
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Old 05-12-2008   #30
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

which could mean anything, he could have showed up 2 minutes late to practice or a meeting. The most dangerous thing in the world is "a little bit" of information. leaving everyone room to extrapolate in their mind all the juiciest versions of the story. Seriously, we need to stop jumping to every negative conclusion.
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Old 05-12-2008   #31
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

I remember alot of articles like this about Coughlin when he took over the Giants.
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Old 05-12-2008   #32
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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which could mean anything, he could have showed up 2 minutes late to practice or a meeting. The most dangerous thing in the world is "a little bit" of information. leaving everyone room to extrapolate in their mind all the juiciest versions of the story. Seriously, we need to stop jumping to every negative conclusion.
lol

I wasn't trying to pass of my interpretation of the events as fact, nor was I trying to spread "juicy" rumors. I've stated several times, in several different ways that it is merely my interpretation of the facts and nothing more. Next time I'll try and spin a player being punished, recieving pointed comments in pressers, and being chewed out for not practicing hard enough into pie-in-the-sky sweet nothings. God forbid all our players not be perfect, even our best ones.
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Old 05-12-2008   #33
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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Well, it doesn't help that Kubiak stated Okoye wasn't starting for disciplinary reasons. Which is what my point was.

I guess I should have made that more clear.
Fair enough.
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Old 05-12-2008   #34
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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one of the problems with taking the "youngest player ever" is the fact that he is, well....young. Wasn't he a teen when he was drafted? Part of the risk of the kid was taking him before he matured fully. 'Seemingly mature' doesn't equate to being mature in many cases....if that is even an issue. I tend to agree with TC on this right now though....boring time of year = goofy speculation sometimes. I wasn't overly impressed with his game last year...but he flashed talent, no doubt about that (as a passrusher...not so much as a run stopper).
Pretty much QFT.

The Texans pretty much have enough real problems without making them up or speculating based on very little information. (see e.g. The Annual State of the Secondary preseason article "gee, it is all second day players").
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Old 05-12-2008   #35
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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The strangest aspect if that were the case, however, would be that Okoye was back in the game on the second play and stayed in for the rest of the game. If he were benched for a lack of performance, he'd be relegated to Faggins duty, not still logging in a ton of minutes directly after Anthony Maddox, who replaced him, recorded a sack on the first play of the game.
Can we take Faggins off the roster just to ensure he never has to cover anyone again for the Texans? I think I would rather see Duane Brown at DB.
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Old 05-12-2008   #36
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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Not sure I agree with your thought. IMO Mario last year was healed and had the benefit of a year in NFL behind him and all the hoopla of being #1 chosen over Bush. TJ had a private talk in Kubes office that was well documented that the coach expected more and quickly. TJ first efforts on the field prior to last season seemed to indicate he got the message.

I am not one of those that believe that Gibbs or Franklin yelling at players is successful. There is more to their approach than pointing out to the player with profanity and volume that the player screwed up. Some people of that age group respond well to a drill instructor mentality and others do not. Okoye is a very smart person who has adapted will to his first year in the NFL. He did not compete last year with players just a few years older & still in his age group with college experience. Rather against players with several years of NFL training and game experience. He did remarkably well & there is nothing to indicate he will not advance this season. I believe the two coaches definitely get into a player's head ( and others within the area) but also have the ability to motivate. There is more going on besides the teaching seen on the field.

I think you make some good points...and the likely answer is that the improvement of these players in a result of several different factors, including coaching, experience, etc. Just to clarify my point of view, I think both Gibbs and Franklin's approach has a lot more to do with just getting in players faces and yelling. I agree, the drill instructor mentality doesn't work for everyone...but I think it is the substance behind the yelling that makes all the difference. I am not sure if you read the article in the Chron today, but I think what this guys do is much more than going after players with profanity and volume. It is an attention to detail, emphasizing a specific technique, requiring that the same amount of effort be given on every snap and pushing players to go above and beyond what they expect they can do.
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Old 05-13-2008   #37
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

Personally, I've got no problem with screaming and profanity.

But I think this is like the military and the reasoning behind it is the same. When you're in a game situation (like a battle situation), things are sometimes hectic. Different people are screaming different things to different other people. Coaches are yelling, people are trying to make sure the right package of players gets on the field, that other players get off the field, that the right play gets in, that the right coverages are called, that the players are making their reads.

And it can get hectic.

If you practice hectic, you get used to it. You get used to being able to shut some things out and let other things in. You get accustomed to the chaos so that when you face it in the game, it's probably less crazy than what you're used to in practice.

So... I'm fine with the strategy. If it lights a fire under some guys asses, great. If some guys respond to it and others don't, fine. Because I think the idea isn't that it's going to make people work harder, it's going to make people be able to work in stressful conditions.
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Old 05-13-2008   #38
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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Personally, I've got no problem with screaming and profanity.

But I think this is like the military and the reasoning behind it is the same. When you're in a game situation (like a battle situation), things are sometimes hectic. Different people are screaming different things to different other people. Coaches are yelling, people are trying to make sure the right package of players gets on the field, that other players get off the field, that the right play gets in, that the right coverages are called, that the players are making their reads.

And it can get hectic.

If you practice hectic, you get used to it. You get used to being able to shut some things out and let other things in. You get accustomed to the chaos so that when you face it in the game, it's probably less crazy than what you're used to in practice.

So... I'm fine with the strategy. If it lights a fire under some guys asses, great. If some guys respond to it and others don't, fine. Because I think the idea isn't that it's going to make people work harder, it's going to make people be able to work in stressful conditions.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. The two are totally different. Life/Death > Game/Practice.

In the military when you're out on the range and firing weapons it's not all Hollywood'ish with people yelling and such. Your taught control, aim and how to react when there is a malfunction. There's not someone laying down next to you on the floor yelling at you to blast that silhouette like he stole something from your momma. Then again, I can't speak for all services and wouldn't be surprised if some other services did some crazy stuff like that but then again would you be yelling at the guy holding the gun?

None the less Life/Death > Game/Practice.
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Old 05-13-2008   #39
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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lol

I wasn't trying to pass of my interpretation of the events as fact, nor was I trying to spread "juicy" rumors. I've stated several times, in several different ways that it is merely my interpretation of the facts and nothing more. Next time I'll try and spin a player being punished, recieving pointed comments in pressers, and being chewed out for not practicing hard enough into pie-in-the-sky sweet nothings. God forbid all our players not be perfect, even our best ones.
If it's what you see/hear/sense, and you want to say it, say it.
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Old 05-13-2008   #40
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Default Re: Solomon: Texans' Franklin gives players something to gripe about

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If it's what you see/hear/sense, and you want to say it, say it.
I need to fart.

Just kidding.
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