Offensive Line

[AndreJ]

Originally Posted by Ibar_Harry

Thanks for the post, because this has been the heart and soul of many of my posts. Many fans keep posting the things they see wrong including Vinny. However, the solution to all of the problems are a new set of coaches, some new players, and yes, we are going to have to start over. Why, because injuries along with coaching have desimated this team for at least another 2 to 3 years if we are lucky. Injuries have hurt Capers defensive system and rendered it usless. That's unfornuate, but Casserly and Capers were expecting a greater length of service out of some key older and experienced defensive players. That plan blew up with the injuries. The end result is that they must retrench and start new. Unfortunately, that alone will take at least two years and may be longer.

What in the HELL are you talkin about? The coaches are not going anywhere as was stated in the in the paper a few days ago. What injuries are you talkin about (Coleman, Foreman)? Everyone besides them is healthy. You make it seem like we have as many injuries as the TITANS right now. Arron Glenn should play for about 2 maybe 3 more years. Jamie still has some left in him, the only player i really see that needs to retire is Gary Walker, he's a good guy, but he's old and needs to hang it up.

As for the coaches, regardless of what any of you think. It doesn't matter how good of a coach you are, if the guys you have physically don't have any talent, they're not going to play good (Offensive Line; Seth Wand). If he is not physically able to play against the RE's of other teams. It doesn't matter what you tell that persn as a coach, he AIN'T, yes i said AIN'T, going to get the job done!

Bottom Line.
__________________________________________________ _______________

Get off the coaches back, good lord. They are not leaving anytime soon deal with it!

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by Ibar_Harry

That's unfornuate, but Casserly and Capers were expecting a greater length of service out of some key older and experienced defensive players. That plan blew up with the injuries. The end result is that they must retrench and start new. Unfortunately, that alone will take at least two years and may be longer.

Where do you get this stuff? Four of eleven likely defensive starters next year will be young guys coming into their own--Babin, Robinson, Peek & Earl. I would bet Payne comes back to his 2003 form next year and Robaire is a young guy that will have a year of 3-4 under his belt. Wong will be coming off the best season he's ever had. There is no reason this D cannot respond next year, especially with the infusion of another defense heavy draft--and if your expectations were to have the Baltimore defense this year, they were out of whack to begin with.

[edo783]

Ibar, does your glass EVER get half full? It may have happened, but I have yet to see a positive post by you. There are a LOT of positives for this team and MOST of the unrest on the board are from over inflated expectations for this season. If you check the stats for offense in nearly every catagory and most skill positions we are at about the middle of the league and that's not bad for a team that hasn't even finished its third season. Yes, we have been very inconsistant and the defense isn't playing as well as the experience level would indicate, but all is not a disaster, it just needs a bit more time and play together for the most part and a few more players.

[TexanExile]

Originally Posted by aj.

The grass is always greener. I remember when everyone in Cleveland wanted Belichick ran off because he didn't know what he was doing. I remember when everyone wanted Butch Davis because he was the next coming of Tom Landry.

100% agree....remember when Belichick was derided as a guy who was a coordinator who wasn't head-coach material? (Sounds vaguely familiar...)

To the issue of how long we give each player before we say they should stay or go, it's difficult. Chester Pitts is still here and he hasn't been part of a successful offensive line yet; how many Oiler fans remember how truly bad Brad Hopkins was with false starts in the early part of his career? If a guy has shown flashes of greatness he may just need time to get consistent. I hope that's what they're seeing with Pitts, because he literally couldn't be given any more chances than he's getting. (Worth noting that he did make a position change this year, albeit to his "natural" position.)

Pitts, though, was never labeled a "project" or given the job basically because he's huge. That's my gripe with Seth Wand. He's a big guy and that's about it. So's my mechanic, but I don't expect him to be an NFL tackle. End the "project" and find somebody who belongs in this league.

Carr? I've heard NFL minds say for years that a QB needs 4 seasons to mature. During the hot streak this year, I thought Carr may have suddenly cut that short and figured it all out. Obviously not. I'll wait another year to break out the pitchforks and torches for Carr, Capers, etc....

Teams in constant flux generally don't get better. More than anything, I don't want the Texans to become another Arizona or Washington, where mediocrity is expected. Ironically, the best way to ensure that sort of fate is to RAISE the expectations too quickly. I fully expect this team to finish 7-9 or 8-8, and that's not an unreasonable expectation. If they have the same record in January that they do right now, then it may indeed be appropriate to make SOME changes--but not wholesale ones.

[Ibar_Harry]

Originally Posted by infantrycak

Where do you get this stuff? Four of eleven likely defensive starters next year will be young guys coming into their own--Babin, Robinson, Peek & Earl. I would bet Payne comes back to his 2003 form next year and Robaire is a young guy that will have a year of 3-4 under his belt. Wong will be coming off the best season he's ever had. There is no reason this D cannot respond next year, especially with the infusion of another defense heavy draft--and if your expectations were to have the Baltimore defense this year, they were out of whack to begin with.

I think there are real questions as to how effective Payne and Walker will be from here on out. You think they will be fully recovered and I do not. We suffered more injuries than any one else last year and that's a fact. Those injuries have had an enormous effect on what has happened this year. People were still healing at the beginning of the season and they played on. We have not been able to attain last year's efficiency. Everyone had hoped BJ would be back, but he's not. Will he every be back? Will Hollings ever make it? The list goes on and on. I'm not saying its the coaches fault that players got injured, but it is a fact that we have had some very devastating injuries to players. I personally think we will have to due a lot of retrenching. I think Glenn might be on the downhill side of things. Part of his performance this year could be the result of lack of a pass rush, but only time will tell. Coleman was converted to his new position, in part, because of age. Now he's injured. Will it be fixed, probably, but its not a certain thing. The Bosselli injury was a gamble. We have gambled a lot on injured personnel recovering and it hasn't happened as well as we would like.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by Ibar_Harry

The Bosselli injury was a gamble. We have gambled a lot on injured personnel recovering and it hasn't happened as well as we would like.

You're right about the Bosselli selection in the X draft, there was a gamble because of his injury but I don't think we were as confidant as we let on at
the time we took him that he would eventually play for us. But we were heavily hedged in that transaction with the Jags because we got Payne & Walker in the package with Bosselli. Taking Hollings with a second round pick
was a huge gamble by Cass because he was such an unknown quantity as
a running back - a converted DB who played in only 4 college games. The
injury boosted the risk factor.
I dunno, the wife & I are planning on a Vegas trip next month and I just know we're gonna walk into one of those casinos on the strip and there's gonna be this huge crowd gathered around a **** table and there will be Cass - rolling the dice, betting big, and the crowd roaring.

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by Ibar_Harry

I think there are real questions as to how effective Payne and Walker will be from here on out. You think they will be fully recovered and I do not. We suffered more injuries than any one else last year and that's a fact.

First off, your post that I responded to was about the defense so I was not talking about injuries such as Joppru, Boselli, Hollings, Carr, etc. On defense, my point is injuries last year, even those that still hurt this year don't necessarily mean they will be ongoing problems next year and they don't support your statement that it will take 2+ more years for the D to come together. It seems you want to treat any injured player as permanently lost/ineffective. Virtually every player in the NFL has been injured at some point. Payne has consistantly improved as the year has gone on and is getting much closer to his old form (stats aren't everything, but he will be near or possibly above his tackle/sack numbers from 2002). There has not been any indication of reinjury and with his work ethic IMO it is more likely than not he will fully recover. Other than pessimism what makes you think Payne will not recover? Walker has been a disappointment this year, but what evidence do you have that it is due to injury rather than playing with a notable lack of the fire he had in 2002? Ramon Walker will also be bringing his depth and outstanding special teams play back next year. JMO, but the playing time for the young guys that play substantial roles in the Texans D--Babin, Peek, Robinson, Faggins, Earl--will outweigh the lingering effects of 2003 injuries in 2005.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by infantrycak

Payne has consistantly improved as the year has gone on and is getting much closer to his old form (stats aren't everything, but he will be near or possibly above his tackle/sack numbers from 2002). There has not been any indication of reinjury and with his work ethic IMO it is more likely than not he will fully recover.

Yup, he's lookin' good. Always felt he was more valuable to us than Walker.
Plus he's still < 30. He is in his contract year I believe. Has anybody heard anything on getting him resigned ?

[Vinny]

Gary Walker has always been one of my favorite Texans. I'm hoping he rebounds next year. Two-gap linemen tend to stick around and play in their older years. Perhaps his injury has a bit of a carry over effect.

[wags]

I wonder if Seth Wand or Marcus Spears will start at LT against the Jags. Spears seemed to play a lot of LT today, mostly third down it seemed.

Hopefully Wiegert is ok because Washington sucks.

[AndreJ]

Originally Posted by wags

Hopefully Wiegert is ok because Washington sucks.

Why did he get hurt again today?

[ArlingtonTexan]

Originally Posted by wags

I wonder if Seth Wand or Marcus Spears will start at LT against the Jags. Spears seemed to play a lot of LT today, mostly third down it seemed.

Hopefully Wiegert is ok because Washington sucks.

the game notes said that Zach looks to be out for the year.

[Vinny]

Originally Posted by wags

Spears seemed to play a lot of LT today, mostly third down it seemed.

On the post-game radio show they were calling Wand the Anti-Peek. He was coming out in passing downs.

[wags]

Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan

the game notes said that Zach looks to be out for the year.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOO

[NoBullTexan]

What is wrong with McKinney? Let me count the ways. But really he simply gets beat one-on-one up the gut too much. That is overly simplistic, I know, but it also distills in a few words what is wrong with McKinney.

I don't too often agree so completely with Vinny but I agree pretty much with his post above.

I think they should trash the zone blocking scheme, because it seems to confuse us more than the opposition.

Maybe it is because they get hurt too much, and still try to play. Or it is they haven't played beside one another for long enough, or just what it is, but McKinny and Weigert, over the course of the year, have been the weak points more than anyone else on the O-line. Wand is limited only by his lack of experience. He was more or less thrown to the Lions this year in an effort to force feed him into playing the LT position. It is way too early to get negative on Wand. He needs to look at a ton of film over the off-season with his position coach to show him his mistakes, especially against the Freenys of the world. He will eventually become an asset at the position.

[AndreJ]

this is still the first year in the new zone blocking scheme and i dont see us getting any worse in the future. I think we will only get better with time. I like how after David Carr threw a fit today, the O-Line pulled together and you didn't see much pressure on him after that.

If we are still having these same problems next year than yes i think we may need to start looking at a new blocking scheme.

[Hervoyel]

Between Todd Washington, Milford Brown, and Fred Weary I believe they'll be able to find someone to fill in capably for Weigert. Sure it's not as good as having Weigert in there but it should get us through the last two games.

On Wand I'm thinking that this is good for him. He's still ahead of where I thought he'd be. Like a lot of people I was surprised he was ready to start this year and apparently he's not completely ready to be starting or he wouldn't be coming out on passing downs now. He has the physical tools to be a very good LT. He's obviously a hard worker and working hard at it. If he has someone replacing him on passing downs that's going to challenge him to come back and put a stop to it so I expect Wand to work twice as hard as before. He just started this thing with a long way to go but I'm impressed with how hard he's worked if not always the way things have turned out.

[Texanman]

Wondering what yall thought about next years OL. We have the worst center in the league. He spends entire games on the ground. Its embarrassing. Does he even workout? Do you think we will do anything to address the issue. Like move Wiegert to center, and leave Brown at RG. I didnt know if the Texans org. felt like they should keep him because hes a local guy/media guy. Any thoughts?

[OzzO]

Ah, it's not all on Steve - wasn't he a guard before he joined up with the Texans? Depends if we can find a center to replace. If so - then it'll depends on how fast he can be put into the speed of the NFL and learn the system.

If all goes well, then McKinney will start or provide depth at guard (depending on who wants the job more) as well as be depth for center.... my 2 cents.

[Marcus]

Well, if Casserly wanted to draft a center in the 2nd round, like Vince Carter or Donovan Raiola, I wouldn't complain.

Either one of them would be an instant upgrade over McKinney IMHO.