Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQDonate Automatic Monthly Contribution Members List Mark Forums Read


Texans Talk Football talk only please. Keep it to the game, the players, the coaches and management.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-11-2004   #21
Lucky
Moderator
 
Lucky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 13,054
Rep Power: 136980 Lucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreJ
...I think we need a faster and more agile LT, IMO that is our #1 concern for the O-Line not McKinney.
About what's wrong with McKinney...I think most people would agree that the Texans aren't getting much of a push in the middle of the O-line. That's where Steve lives. The Texans allow a lot of penetration up the middle from the pass rush. Again, where's Steve?

I think almost every team would like a more agile LT (in their price range). But, they don't grow on trees. I think Wand is a good athlete for a LT. He seems a little slow now because he's thinking rather than reacting. We're all hoping that changes with experience. Walter Jones might finally make it to free agency this offseason. Are you ready to give a 8 figure signing bonus to a 31 year old LT? More importantly, do you think Casserly would? I'm thinking he won't, so getting Wand experience now seems to be the smart play.
__________________
ďWeíre looking for a coach that...works with great energy and enthusiasm and very positive in his approach.Ē - Bob McNair
Lucky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2004   #22
ArlingtonTexan
Moderator
 
ArlingtonTexan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Age: 47
Posts: 6,035
Rep Power: 73193 ArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreJ
I do not understand why you people think we need a new center what's wrong with McKinney, someone please tell me! MAybe yall r looking at something that im not,but in my eyes McKinney is not the problem the problem is the LT, yes he goes up against some of the best, but heck we're in the NFL for crying out loud. I think we need a faster and more agile LT, IMO that is our #1 concern for the O-Line not McKinney.
Wand does not have an issue with his feet quickness. he needs more strength and aggressivenss. also, the LT in most offense will have the highest sack total because they are normally facing the opposition's best pas pusher. McKinney gets blown up at times in the middle and never really gets a push. he was a better position/pass blocker but does not seem to do that as well. Wand has not been embarrassing on the left side considering its his first year as a starter. If dominate LT type comes available to the Texans then yeah go get him, but about half the team in the NFL have a worse situation at LT than the Texans.
ArlingtonTexan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2004   #23
aj.
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,769
Rep Power: 658 aj. is a quality contributor and well respectedaj. is a quality contributor and well respectedaj. is a quality contributor and well respectedaj. is a quality contributor and well respectedaj. is a quality contributor and well respectedaj. is a quality contributor and well respectedaj. is a quality contributor and well respectedaj. is a quality contributor and well respectedaj. is a quality contributor and well respectedaj. is a quality contributor and well respectedaj. is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
I do not understand why you people think we need a new center what's wrong with McKinney, someone please tell me!
Watch the replay of McKinney vs. Randy Starks on the play when Carr should have been called for the safety against TN. That wasn't an isolated case and it's a very good example of why we are weak up the middle. That was supposed to be pass protection but he gets blown up on running plays too.
aj. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2004   #24
nunusguy
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Houston
Posts: 8,991
Rep Power: 185 nunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj.
Watch the replay of McKinney vs. Randy Starks
And replay the trade of Babin for Randy Starks & Ben Troupe. Woah ! Let
me see, do we need a TE (a real TE who can catch passes & who has the size to get a D linemans attention when he throws a block who is also young guy for the future) and a D lineman who played in the 3-4 in college who is there for the future and can start for us today. Geez Cass, did you lose your shirt on this deal or what ?
nunusguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2004   #25
infantrycak
Lead Moderator
 
infantrycak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Age: 47
Posts: 45,313
Rep Power: 302162 infantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

As a frame of reference for Wade, here are Spears stats on very limited duty:

1 false start, 0 holds, 2 sacks.

As for McKinney, it just seems clear from rewatching the games that the center of the line is a huge problem, so much so that I would blame some of both Wiegert and Pitts' problems on McKinney. McKinney, good guy that he is, is simply incapable of getting the push on rushing plays or holding the line on passing plays that is necessary. We need the offensive opposite of Smith or Payne as a center--someone who never gets pushed back and if anything moves forward--a huge push forward upon which the D-line breaks around rather than a gap they can exploit. Going into this off-season, at this point center is what is the greatest need IMO.
__________________
The Art of War
infantrycak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2004   #26
bckey
Hall of Fame
 
bckey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Age: 53
Posts: 2,325
Rep Power: 15763 bckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
As a frame of reference for Wade, here are Spears stats on very limited duty:

1 false start, 0 holds, 2 sacks.

As for McKinney, it just seems clear from rewatching the games that the center of the line is a huge problem, so much so that I would blame some of both Wiegert and Pitts' problems on McKinney. McKinney, good guy that he is, is simply incapable of getting the push on rushing plays or holding the line on passing plays that is necessary. We need the offensive opposite of Smith or Payne as a center--someone who never gets pushed back and if anything moves forward--a huge push forward upon which the D-line breaks around rather than a gap they can exploit. Going into this off-season, at this point center is what is the greatest need IMO.

Agreed. Although DL, RB, and TE (If Joppru never plays) need to be addressed also. Hopefully we can get a free agent center and RB in the off season and continue to address defense in the draft.
bckey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2004   #27
big sarge
Veteran
 
big sarge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Age: 40
Posts: 237
Rep Power: 11 big sarge is on the Pro-Bowl ballotbig sarge is on the Pro-Bowl ballot
Default

I would go with a, and d. I think they could shake up things a bit more if they started someone else at center . Kinda like when they benched moon in 1990's and then the Oilers won 12 straight.
big sarge is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
Old 12-12-2004   #28
DreamCatcher
Rookie
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: England
Age: 50
Posts: 72
Rep Power: 10 DreamCatcher is ridin' the pine
Default

Centre does look a weak point and McKinney is reducing the O,s effectiveness.
__________________
Be nice to people on your way up because you might meet 'em on your way down!!
DreamCatcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2004   #29
big sarge
Veteran
 
big sarge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Age: 40
Posts: 237
Rep Power: 11 big sarge is on the Pro-Bowl ballotbig sarge is on the Pro-Bowl ballot
Default

Personally I think they need to get there heads out of there fith point of contact and just play!
big sarge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2004   #30
Fiddy
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Houston/Austin
Age: 26
Posts: 4,314
Rep Power: 18 Fiddy was voted MVPFiddy was voted MVPFiddy was voted MVPFiddy was voted MVP
Send a message via AIM to Fiddy Send a message via MSN to Fiddy Send a message via Yahoo to Fiddy
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddy
Dang, no false starts. That is a surprise. However, it would be fitting if he got a couple of early starts this week now that I know that he hasnt had a false start all season...
You have got to be kidding me.
__________________

'Anyone ready to go outside so I can make you look bad?' - Matt Schaub talking to the DBs
Fiddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2004   #31
wags
Hall of Fame
 
wags's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: TX and FL
Age: 36
Posts: 1,601
Rep Power: 23 wags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famer
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
The left side of the line is set. Pitts and Wand just need to continue to work together. They have the quickest feet of all the linemen and will be our left side for years.
That is a scary thought. eek:

Both Pitts and Wiegert looked bad in pass protection, not to mention the false starts(Pitts 2, Wiegert 1). I wouldn't mind a new guard in the offseason.

Wand needs to get stronger. Much stronger.
__________________
A good argument is always spoiled by someone who knows what they're talking about
wags is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2004   #32
Vinny
shiny happy fan
 
Vinny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Age: 50
Posts: 21,801
Rep Power: 154151 Vinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Up and down game today. They were horrible at times and they had nice blocks at times. On balance it wasn't solid. I just don't understand why we have Wand on Freeney one-on-one so much.
__________________
http://twitter.com/#!/TexansTalk


"A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves" - Edward R. Murrow
Vinny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2004   #33
nunusguy
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Houston
Posts: 8,991
Rep Power: 185 nunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wags
Wand needs to get stronger. Much stronger.
You know that Feeney can finesse Wand, but turns out he can also overpower him. And Wand has 75 lbs & 6-7 inches on him. The guy has got to be anemic for someone of that size. They need to get him in the weight room this winter and lock the doors.
nunusguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2004   #34
wags
Hall of Fame
 
wags's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: TX and FL
Age: 36
Posts: 1,601
Rep Power: 23 wags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famerwags is a Hall of Famer
Default

Well our offensive line has managed to give up more sacks in 13 games this year (37) than all 16 last year (36). Congratulations guys.
__________________
A good argument is always spoiled by someone who knows what they're talking about
wags is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2004   #35
TexanExile
Square 1 again
 
TexanExile's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Singapore
Age: 43
Posts: 1,600
Rep Power: 3475 TexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

From Mike Wilkening, Pro Football Weekly, November 18, 2004:

"Iím not trying to be flippant, but watching Carr scramble for his NFL life last week in the RCA Dome really got me questioning how long itís going to take the Texans to have consistent success. Because until the Texans start making Carr feel safe in the pocket, the painful defeats will be plenty, the playoff trips will be zero.

Carr was supposed to have endured the worst of the punishment at the hands of defensive linemen in his rookie season, when a patchwork line allowed a league-record 76 sacks. The O-line did make strides in 2003, allowing less than half as many sacks as it had the previous season. But personnel types around the AFC generally believed it to be a weak unit still in need of plenty of work.

Seeking better results, the Texans made a handful of personnel changes along the line in the offseason. Veteran ORT Todd Wade was signed away from Miami. Chester Pitts, Houstonís left tackle in those first two seasons, slid to left guard, with athletic Seth Wand taking over as Carrís blind-side protector.

After a rough start to this season (10 sacks allowed in the first three games), the line started to settle down. Carr was sacked only six times in the next four games. With time to throw, we saw Carr blossom. We saw the arm strength, accuracy and playmaking ability that convinced the Texans to build their team around him. Itís no coincidence Carr threw six touchdowns against only one interception in this stretch.

By Election Day, the Texans were factors in the AFC South, kicked around as hip, dark-horse division-title candidates.

But then came the trip to Denver, where the Broncos outmuscled them from the start. Carr was sacked four times, threw no touchdowns, and the Texans lost 31-13.
As bad as that performance was, the Colts game was much worse. DEs Robert Mathis and Dwight Freeney whipped Wand and Marcus Spears, who was filling in for the injured Wade. The result was a 49-14 loss, which Carr, who was sacked five times and pressured on numerous occasions, unfavorably compared to the string of punishing defeats he took in 2002."


Full article

I have no faith in Wand. I disagree with the idea that a young franchise QB's blind side should be trusted to someone they called a "project" in the offseason.
TexanExile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2004   #36
BuffSoldier
Hall of Fame
 
BuffSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Tha South Side of Screwston, Texas
Age: 26
Posts: 1,929
Rep Power: 12 BuffSoldier is ridin' the pine
Default

Draft an O-Lineman, period.
__________________
Pressure bust a pipe.
BuffSoldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2004   #37
keyfro
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Age: 31
Posts: 1,859
Rep Power: 14 keyfro was voted MVPkeyfro was voted MVPkeyfro was voted MVP
Send a message via AIM to keyfro
Default

i totally agree...if there is away seattle parts ways with walter jones because of their needs with saun alexander and matt we need to be the team that gets him...overpay him just to make sure he's on our roster next year...that's what i'm thinking...wand is a really good back-up...maybe a decent RT but as far as LT he doesn't seem to have the strength or the feet for it...personally i think pitts made a better LT than he did
__________________
With the 10th overall pick in the 2007 NFL draft the Houston Texans select...?????
keyfro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2004   #38
Hervoyel
The Right Track
 
Hervoyel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Age: 49
Posts: 14,662
Rep Power: 247537 Hervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

I've come to the conclusion that there's nothing left to do but watch and wait for this mess to come together. If it takes the rest of this year and if Carr's beaten down into a little lump of bruised flesh then that's what's going to happen. There's no other solution to this.

You can't fix it right now no matter what happens. Moving Pitts back out to LT isn't going to make the last three games any easier on Carr. Changing the blocking scheme isn't going to correct things. It will only aggravate the inconsistency we already have there. Wand may be a project but he's a project we're in the middle of right now so we're going to have to see this through.

I've also spent some time considering my criticism of the coaches decision to implement the zone blocking scheme. Upon reflection I think I was wrong and lest anyone say that I'm retracting because of the day DD had against the Colts I'd like to add that this thought has been bouncing around my head for several days.

Had Capers & Co. opted to install the zone blocking scheme in 2002 when the team began I think the effort would have been wasted. Wand and Wade weren't even here then. Pitts wasn't playing the same position then, and McKinney was... well he was and still is Steve McKinney. Basically they'd have been taking the time to teach a blocking scheme to a bunch of guys who were not going to be here in the following years. Today we'd be looking at Pitts learning the scheme for the first time in his new position, Wade and Wand learning it for the first time in their positions, Weigert in his second year in it, and McKinney sucking at it for two years in a row.

I now conceed that this season with all of it's warts was the correct time to implement such a scheme and that the rewards we all want to see should become apparent in 2005 if they are in fact going to happen. As fans we're all just going to have to suck it up and watch the end of this train wreck and then be ready to come back for some more football in 2005.

The only other option is to jump the wagon and go get a silver and blue cap with a star on it (or something along those lines) and I'm not going to do that while I still have a choice. Capers ain't going anywhere, Palmer ain't going anywhere, and the zone blocking scheme ain't going anywhere. If it looks this bad next year then maybe some changes might be coming down the pipe but no sooner than that.
Hervoyel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2004   #39
nunusguy
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Houston
Posts: 8,991
Rep Power: 185 nunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hervoyel
I've come to the conclusion that there's nothing left to do but watch and wait for this mess to come together. If it takes the rest of this year and if Carr's beaten down into a little lump of bruised flesh then that's what's going to happen. There's no other solution to this.
You're gettin' pretty graphic on us there Herv. I don't think we want poor Dave's physical appearance to approach that condition, else he wouldn't have
time to play or practice because he'd be so beat-up & sheel-shocked he'd be spending all of his time in the hospital and talking to a shrink. But whatever
they decide to do about zone-blocking (keep it or drop it), they still gotta find some people who can pass-block & protect Dave when he drops back to pass. Especially over on the LT island.
nunusguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2004   #40
bckey
Hall of Fame
 
bckey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Age: 53
Posts: 2,325
Rep Power: 15763 bckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respectedbckey is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Actually Wade had zone blocking in Miami. The Texans will still have to teach zone blocking to whoever replaces Wiegert and McKinney. I still think it would have been better to start it in 2002 than now. It did look like we ran the ball better today so maybe this is a sign of improvement although pass blocking is horrible.

Here is a good article from www.Houstonprofootball.com

Quote:
November 25, 2004
It's All Downhill From Here
by Keith Weiland
HoustonProFootball.com

Ten games into the season and the Texans' running game is still going nowhere. With the implementation of a slight variation of the zone blocking scheme on the offensive line, werenít we supposed to be watching something akin to what we see in Denver and Baltimore?

Last edited by bckey; 12-12-2004 at 07:44 PM.
bckey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ad Management by RedTyger