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Old 04-27-2008   #21
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

if brown was plan C ( or whatever ) then it was a good pick, we moved back and got extra picks, the boys jumped in front of us for fear or us taking jenkins, i'm sure the FO feared moving back would cost us our guy
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Old 04-27-2008   #22
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

i kinda agree with this from mailman on the draft thread

Quote:
Orlando Pace is getting older and coming off a season-ending injury. Considering St. Louis took an OT (Greco) in the third and an OG in the fifth (Scheuning), if Brown had been available I could see them him over Avery with the second pick of the second round. Not pulling the trigger when they did would've been pushing their luck and risking their entire draft strategy, IMO. Wise move.
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Old 04-27-2008   #23
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

Who knows how long Brown would have lasted if we didn't pick him at 26, but I've seen enough info (From sources other than the Texans) to believe there was zero chance he was going to be there in the 3rd round, and a at least some chance he would have gone to San Fran in the 1st.

For those who feel like the biggest problem with Brown was that we took him too soon, and should have traded down even further, let me ask this question - what would your response be if Smith and Kubiak had said that they were actually targeting Jenkins all along, but traded down because they really believed he would be there at the 26th pick?

My guess is there wouldn't be anyone on this board telling them that it was a good try, and that the benefit of the extra picks warranted losing out on the guy that they really wanted.

Even now, I'm guessing the Texans have no way of knowing where Brown would have gone if they hadn't taken him, and they sure as heck didn't know where he was going to go when the made the decision not to trade down a second time. I'm also pretty sure that they had a better idea of where he might go than anybody on this board (and if you want to call that being a "sheeple, so be it, I just think it's a pretty reasonable assumption).
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Old 04-27-2008   #24
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post
if you are so deluded to think that drafting Brown in the 1st Round wasn't a reach then that is your prerogative. .
Show me where I said drafting Brown anywhere was good, bad, or otherwise.

Looking at the way things fell and the tackles taken after 26, I think the howls would have been much louder - and arguably more justified - had they not 'reached' for Brown, mainly because there was a good chance he would have been gone at 79 and the Texans wouldn't have been able to get anyone else with a snowballs chance in hell of remotely fitting into Gibbs' system at LT.

With 6 OTs including guys like Baker and Cherilus off the board early by 21, Brown was arguably in the best of the rest available category by pick 22 regardless of scheme. Expecting him to still be there 57 picks later it what seems unrealistic.

Who again post-26 other than Brown would have made a good ZBS tackle candidate?

Last edited by aj.; 04-27-2008 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 04-28-2008   #25
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

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Originally Posted by aj. View Post
With 6 OTs including guys like Baker and Cherilus off the board early by 21, Brown was arguably in the best of the rest available category by pick 22 regardless of scheme. Expecting him to still be there 57 picks later it what seems unrealistic.
Not only that, but it sounds like the guy fits our scheme better than some of the tackles taken before him. He wasn't our #1 LT in the draft or anything, atleast I doubt he was, but I think that the Texans had him rated higher for our system than a couple of the other LTs taken before him.
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Old 04-28-2008   #26
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

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Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post
You aren't getting my point.

3rd Round - Duane Brown LT VTech (or worst case Collins, Hills, and Zuttah of whom all were available at this spot where we took Molden)
.
Because ...you have no point. He wasn't going to make it to the 79. Collins and Hills do not fit. Zuttah is a left gaurd...watch where
Gruden sticks the guy...And that is the point...Smith figgured this to a tee. He knew that the top three guys would go off the board....could they have packaged '09 picks to move up with say Bufallo ?...sure...

BUT and get this through your thick skull...they liked him. They liked him over Williams. They liked him over Clady, and over Alberts. They loved the guy. It wasn't an accedent. Wasn't a miss....Brown was thier OLT...period. Out of the top 63 players, if he was still on the board when they came up, above everyone else on the board...the pick was going to be Duane Brown. And that includes Williams, Clady, and Alberts. Duane Brown was their guy. wrap your mind around that one. Life will be much easier for ya.

So sorry, you have no point.
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Old 04-28-2008   #27
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

Quote:
Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
Because ...you have no point. He wasn't going to make it to the 79. Collins and Hills do not fit. Zuttah is a left gaurd...watch where
Gruden sticks the guy...And that is the point...Smith figgured this to a tee. He knew that the top three guys would go off the board....could they have packaged '09 picks to move up with say Bufallo ?...sure...

BUT and get this through your thick skull...they liked him. They liked him over Williams. They liked him over Clady, and over Alberts. They loved the guy. It wasn't an accedent. Wasn't a miss....Brown was thier OLT...period. Out of the top 63 players, if he was still on the board when they came up, above everyone else on the board...the pick was going to be Duane Brown. And that includes Williams, Clady, and Alberts. Duane Brown was their guy. wrap your mind around that one. Life will be much easier for ya.

So sorry, you have no point.
Period. End of story.
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Old 04-28-2008   #28
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

He looks good and I'm sure they feel they can mold him to fit the system, but I hoped and prayed for Mendenhall. I'll live. I wanted Bush and i'm glad I was wrong there.
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Old 04-28-2008   #29
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

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Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post
whatever marcus. make it personal if you want. just keep drinking the koolaid like you did back in the carr era. your credibility = zero
No, actually you just get can't get past the hate. If I could just see a positive post from you about anything, that'd be different. But you just can't get past Carr. And can't accept that this current regime just might know what they doing, even though they've proven it.

No, you're just pissed because they didn't draft who you wanted. Therefore, you're smarter than them, or how did you say it, "they think they are smarter than us".

You are just the most arrogant poster I've ever seen on this board. Period. End of story.
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Old 04-28-2008   #30
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

Come on guys, this just has nowhere to go but down.

It's going to take a lot of us some time to really trust the Texans on the draft. We're Houston fans which means we came out of the box with a persecution complex and 2002-2005 didn't exactly provide us with any reason to trust the guys with the bulls on their helmets.

I'm not pointing any fingers or naming any names but I think we're all still feeling the effects of two years of real division (I'm talking about the 2005 season, the 2006 draft (Vince-Reggie-Mario Wars), and then the 2006 season when the wheels came off the Carr. The 8-8 campaign in 2007 helped but we're still fighting a lot of the same fights among ourselves and we still feel like the other shoe is about to drop every time the Texans make a decision we don't agree with.

You could tell by how fast we polarized into Schaub and Sage camps last year. It's like we couldn't wait for something to come along and split us into seperate camps so we could fight some more.

I also had a sinking "Travis Johnson" feeling when they called out Browns name. I'm trying to make myself accept that these guys (Kubiak and Smith) aren't those guys (Capers and Casserly) and it's working but I too see the similarities to the Babin pick where a coach said "Get me THAT guy".

I'm just having to tell myself that THIS coach (Gibbs) is a better coach than THAT coach (Capers) and that he knows what he's doing. He's always known what he was doing. Everywhere he goes he gets results. Buddy Ryan had a reputation like that when he came to the Oilers and I was nervous about how that was going to turn out back in the day. It worked out and I believe this will too.

Quit fighting over this. It's done and the Texans are telling us that they got what they wanted. Everybody drinks some kool aid eventually. Sooner or later you have to give them the benefit of the doubt again and hope that they don't let you down Second Honeymoon. I find it easier to do now that Mario has had a good year. If we were still waiting for him to show up then I'd be really worried about Brown (and Okoye as well).

I'm not because this regime has a record now (albeit a tiny, limited one) of success in drafting. They look like they have a plan so lets go with it and see what happens.
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Old 04-28-2008   #31
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post

1st Round (after trade) - Kenny Phillips or Phillip Merling, Cason, or Flowers
3rd Round - Duane Brown LT VTech (or worst case Collins, Hills, and Zuttah of whom all were available at this spot where we took Molden)
3rd Round - Charles Godfrey CB Iowa
4th Round - Xavier Adibi OLB VTech
5th Round - Frank Okam DT Texas
6th Round - Geno Hayes OLB FSU or Bo Ruud OLB Nebraska
7th Round - Mike Hart RB Michigan

That draft kicks the snot out of our draft and addresses more needs and adds more quality players to the team. possible impact players. drafting a QB in 7th Round just seems lazy to me. Hart was there. Dude is a warrior and will be successful in the NFL. bank on it.
Aside from Godfrey who was already mentioned in this revisionist draft, Hart was not available in the 7th. He went at the end of the 6th. Stop acting like you are smarter than everyone on this board. This post just proved that you are not.
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Old 04-28-2008   #32
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

I disagree with Pete that they would have taken Brown above the other three LT's who fit the ZBS, but he was clearly a close 4th, and the dropoff after that was like a cliff.

To say this was a Casserly move is perplexing to me to say the least. Rick Smith deftly moved down, picked up two extra picks, and still came away with the last of the elite ZBS tackles. That's called a good job.

Casserly would have traded up with Buff, given them our 3rd and 4th this year and our 2nd next so that we could have our choice of tackles, probably Clady. THAT is a signature Asserly move. Then he would have come out and said, hey that's who the coaches wanted, and we went and got him.

Nope, Smith worked the draft board to perfection.

I saw mocks with Brown going as high as 23. He was clearly on the come the last few weeks. In fact in another thread, I predicted that they would take him at 18, and it would be a shocker, but that I wasn't going to be shocked. I saw this coming. I had him somewhere between 20 and 40. He may have been a slight reach by typical standards, but sometimes you might value a guy more than another team. Those stupid "big boards" don't mean a thing.

Examples- Gosder Cherilus was rated lower than Brown by most every service I saw. Most had him in round 3. Yet, he went in the first at #17 and is a RT for cripes sakes.

NE picked up Mayo at #10, yet most mocks had him in rd 2 and I had seen some with him in rd 3. Granted, some did have him in the 1st recently. He was another fast riser. But, I guess Bill Bellichik is a moron too, since they could have gotten him in rd 2 because Mel Kiper says so right? I mean it's not like the guy has won multiple super bowls or anything.

The Falcons took Sam Baker at 21. The last mocks I saw had him in rd 2-3. More idoits. I guess the idiots are everywhere.

Or maybe.....just maybe the guys in the FO know more than some message board hack who had probably never even heard of Duane Brown before 5pm Saturday, and had never seen him play. Maybe? I mean that's just a guess.
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Old 04-28-2008   #33
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post
You aren't getting my point. My point is that we could have gotten Brown himself later in the draft.
I have said this before but it bears repeating....

If you think for one second that Brown would have still been on the board when our 1st 3rd round pick came up, then please pass the pipe!!!!

The 9'ers wanted him too. So what? We were going to go with Salaam the next 3-4 years instead? Puhhhlease put the draft mags away.

Here I'll put it in big bold print....

THE HOUSTON TEXANS HAVE NEEDED A FRANCHISE LEFT TACKLE SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THEIR EXISTANCE!

They finally addressed it.

Look at where Mendenhall went. Picking him up with #18 or #26 would have been an even bigger reach.
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Old 04-28-2008   #34
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

Quote:
NE picked up Mayo at #10, yet most mocks had him in rd 2 and I had seen some with him in rd 3. Granted, some did have him in the 1st recently. He was another fast riser. But, I guess Bill Bellichik is a moron too, since they could have gotten him in rd 2 because Mel Kiper says so right? I mean it's not like the guy has won multiple super bowls or anything
The thing is that it's New England that took Mayo and they can't be wrong ... right . What if New England took Brown at #10 it would be called a brilliant move .

I gotta give to Porky he called this one so Porky wins the Mel Kiper wig .

Anyone see where LZ said mendenhall was described with the "P" word in his report hmmmm .
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Old 04-28-2008   #35
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

People always say that if there's a guy you're targetting, then you go and get him. We went and got him.

Was it a reach? Maybe. But not a huge one.

I still wonder why people said that San Francisco had their eye on him. Were they going to put him back on the right side to bookend with Staley?
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Old 04-28-2008   #36
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

Once we can eyeball the guys on the field we should have a better grasp of how this draft pans out. My immediate reaction to the Brown pick was...you mean that guy everyone in the media considered a second tier player? I thought Gibbs was here to coach up guys you can get...in the second tier groups. If you take what the Texans state at face value, Brown was the last guy on their board of "potential starters" that had the skillset they were looking for. I'll just have to take their word for that.

I'll compare the pick to the Brad Hopkins selection that Mike Holovak "reached for" back in 1993. Holovak had to defend his pick because some thought he reached for him and was not your ideal body type for a LT pick at 13 overall...but Hopkins proved to be a fantastic athlete much like Brown is and ended up to become a pro bowl left tackle for the organization for years.
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Old 04-28-2008   #37
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post
You aren't getting my point. My point is that we could have gotten Brown himself later in the draft. Phillips, Mendenhall, Cason, and Merlin were all available at various points the Texans were at. My point is that we drafted him too early.

1st Round (after trade) - Kenny Phillips or Phillip Merling, Cason, or Flowers
3rd Round - Duane Brown LT VTech (or worst case Collins, Hills, and Zuttah of whom all were available at this spot where we took Molden)
3rd Round - Charles Godfrey CB Iowa
4th Round - Xavier Adibi OLB VTech
5th Round - Frank Okam DT Texas
6th Round - Geno Hayes OLB FSU or Bo Ruud OLB Nebraska
7th Round - Mike Hart RB Michigan

That draft kicks the snot out of our draft and addresses more needs and adds more quality players to the team. possible impact players. drafting a QB in 7th Round just seems lazy to me. Hart was there. Dude is a warrior and will be successful in the NFL. bank on it.

if you are so deluded to think that drafting Brown in the 1st Round wasn't a reach then that is your prerogative. If you asked Brown, even he would tell you it was a reach. Even he was amazed to go in the 1st Round to Houston at #26. This just smacks of a Casserley 'coaches' pick like Babin was. Let the coaches stay in the locker room and let Smith make the damn picks. Our defense is atrocious and barring a miracle trade for Jason Taylor, we don't look to be that much better on defense in 2008. That isn't good enough. Our defense isn't good enough. It is critical and our OL wasn't what held us back last year, it was defense namely on 3rd Down.

I do love the selection of Okam and Slaton though. Great value for both and Slaton seems like a perfect complimentary back for our system.
Seriously? Folks just take second homemoon as he is, this is the same person after week 5 was yelling and screaming for Kubiak to be fired and for the Texans to hire Bill Cowher who was already stating he was not going to coach next season (surprise he is a man of his words). I am not positive but I also think he was wanting the gm fired as well and kept saying the Texans would not spend any money on chaoces because they were cheap.

Depending on what week it is he will change his stance on whos fault it is for certain players. One min it is the coaches fault the next it is the GMs fault and then the very next one it is the owner's fault. Excuse me, the cheap ass owners fualt (I think that is how he phrases it). SH is probably the most knee jerk reaction person we have on this board.

Hart drafted in the 6th (not the 7th) because he has no speed what so ever.
Zuttah was pick 83 and we picked 79 and 89 so we would not have had Molden. Now if you think he would have fallen, probably not because 3 CB were taken right in front of where the Texans drafted. So unless your saying he was a reach (he was not) then that would be just flat out silly. My avatar talks about my reality, you need to have one that talks about this little dream world your living in where you know the future and how every single teams will draft better than guys who have been doing it for so long (successfully at that). I bet you would second guess Bill polian and call him a moron as well.

You are not smarter than any NFL gm or coach who watches how teams are drafting and when a run on a position happens the slotting of a particular player changes dramatically. With all the OL guys going early and often in the first Brown's value and slotting position changed. He went from a mid to late 2nd rounder to a late first. Remeber when we drafted Jacoby Jones last year and how the run of WR went at that time? With no WR going in the first it changed the complaexity of how all other positions were slotted and all moved up.
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Old 04-28-2008   #38
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

The bottom line is, no matter what the Texans F.O. tells us, we'll never know whether Brown was "their guy" from the start or not.

My "personal take" on what happened and why I'm not 'upset' with the Draft.

- The Texans were feeling good through pick 10 or so, as it looked like some of the 'higher-ranked' tackles might fall to them.

- The R-U-N on tackles began and the Texans had an offer(s) to move up to #18 which would allow them to obtain additional picks for depth at need positions, while still getting quality with a late-round first.

- The cowgirls sniped us at #25 for Jenkins and our F.O. got awfully nervous about their "backup plan" being available, so they spent the pick on Brown, who might not have made it out of the 1st Round, and would NEVER have made it through the 2nd.

- The remainder of our picks were for needs and / or youth. (Today's starters & backup WILL eventually get hurt, retire, etc.)

- The QB pick gives us a little more flexibility down the road if they do trade Sage as QBs go down in TC / Pre-Season & what-not.


Like somebody mentioned earlier - Who do you want "grading" your pick? It's hard to argue w/ Belichick on grading LBs. Who (other than Gibbs) do you want evaluating your ZBS LT?
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Old 04-28-2008   #39
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hervoyel
They look like they have a plan so lets go with it and see what happens.
right on...I believe the same lets try having some faith in our coaches...and believe they know whats best for our team,you guys watch...Steve Slaton.... was a great pick. Mark my words.
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Old 04-28-2008   #40
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Default Re: John McLain Explains Why Duane Brown!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Specnatz View Post
Seriously? Folks just take second homemoon as he is, this is the same person after week 5 was yelling and screaming for Kubiak to be fired and for the Texans to hire Bill Cowher who was already stating he was not going to coach next season (surprise he is a man of his words). I am not positive but I also think he was wanting the gm fired as well and kept saying the Texans would not spend any money on chaoces because they were cheap.

Depending on what week it is he will change his stance on whos fault it is for certain players. One min it is the coaches fault the next it is the GMs fault and then the very next one it is the owner's fault. Excuse me, the cheap ass owners fualt (I think that is how he phrases it). SH is probably the most knee jerk reaction person we have on this board.

Hart drafted in the 6th (not the 7th) because he has no speed what so ever.
Zuttah was pick 83 and we picked 79 and 89 so we would not have had Molden. Now if you think he would have fallen, probably not because 3 CB were taken right in front of where the Texans drafted. So unless your saying he was a reach (he was not) then that would be just flat out silly. My avatar talks about my reality, you need to have one that talks about this little dream world your living in where you know the future and how every single teams will draft better than guys who have been doing it for so long (successfully at that). I bet you would second guess Bill polian and call him a moron as well.

You are not smarter than any NFL gm or coach who watches how teams are drafting and when a run on a position happens the slotting of a particular player changes dramatically. With all the OL guys going early and often in the first Brown's value and slotting position changed. He went from a mid to late 2nd rounder to a late first. Remeber when we drafted Jacoby Jones last year and how the run of WR went at that time? With no WR going in the first it changed the complaexity of how all other positions were slotted and all moved up.
At that point in the season the team looked to have quit on Kubiak thus the calls for him to be fired. Oh and the fact that our coaching staff was pathetic last year and Cowher would have improved that. If you want to try and 'take me to task' for calling for Cowher to be the coach, fine. Cowher would still be an improvement but was probably wishful thinking. Thankfully, the Texans did make progress last year later in the season and they significantly improved their coaching staff which was in need of a total retooling. They have begun to fix the problem, although Richard Smith is still employed, and I will be patient, just like I was with Carr, just like I was with Capers, just like I was with everything. But I am not going to be afraid to call a turd a turd. ever.

people can make it personal all they want, I will just be the bigger man and stay above it. i think they panicked on the pick and it was a reach. feel free to subscribe to your own opinion on how it all went down. its your right just like it was your right to make excuses for Carr year after year. i was right then but hopefully I am wrong on this one....I just wont hold my breath.

this pick smells like a Babin, just without the huge sacrifice in picks. Brown seems like a coach's pick who was reached on because we were afraid we wouldn't get 'our guy' later in the draft. Sounds really freaking familiar, eh Babin? vinny says it may be a Brad Hopkins-type reach and that things might work out. Its quite possible. I like the guys size and athleticism but I just don't think he is 1st Round material especially when you needed a guy who can come in and contribute from Day One due to no 2nd Rounder. Just please pull your panties out of your crack and realize that some people do a better job at making objective observations about the Texans. Vinny isn't one of the sheeple and never has been, so I will have to take that as a positive take and hope he is right. Vinny at least is credible, knowledgeable and never been one of the mindless sheeple.

as for Brown not being available in the 3rd, there were other tackle prospects that would have been a better value with our first or second 3rd Round picks. Hills and Collins were both there with our 3rd Rounds and Nicks was available after the 5th Round started. I never like 'system' picks and never have. Get a system that works with your players and don't freak out over trying to find players to fit the system. It's a helluva lot easier to modify a system than it is to acquire/sign/draft new players. I thought had already been established as fact. I just hope Gibbs is half the coach everyone thinks he is. Being born in Missouri, maybe its the "Show Me" state in me. I just always thought the ZBS system was supposed to allow your team to not have to draft OL early in the draft. Obviously, that isn't the case due to the Texans actions Saturday. Great trade down but a low value draft at #26. Phillips or Merling would have been better picks and would have helped us next year....

as for the rest of the draft, I absolutely love it outside the safety we drafted. Adibi, Okam, and Molden were all really good picks and all were picked at draft spots of value. I really hope Adibi can be the edge OLB we have been looking for and I can't wait to see the OK Corral at DT with OKam and OKoye. Molden addresses our most dire need so hopefully he can contribute.

I just think its so funny when some of the posters get their panties in a wad over my opinion. freaking makes my day with all the whining about opinions. just be glad that the Texans didn't pass on Rivers, Mayo, or Harvey for Brown....I may have really lost it then.
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Last edited by Second Honeymoon; 04-28-2008 at 02:00 PM.
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