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Old 04-17-2008   #41
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

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Originally Posted by TheRealJoker View Post
If I remember correctly the C & C claimed that White's sacks were "easy" sacks which made it easier to cut him. But I am of the opinion that 4 sacks is 4 sacks any way you slice it...
now we know the real "sacks" where the ones running the show (minus Bob and he was learning the NFL way)
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Old 04-17-2008   #42
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
Glad to see you here Warren....I was a bit shocked when we released White after his huge sack day in the preseason. My theory back then was that he wasn't overly bright after hearing him speak.
Thanks. Kind of like Steve Foley, who supposedly wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer either, but had 10 sacks for the Chargers a year after having none for the Texans.

In fairness to the Texans, White was on the Bucs' practice squad, the Falcons' practice squad, the Titans' practice squad, the Saints' camp and practice squad, the Redskins' practice squad, the Cologne Centurions, the Bears' camp, and the Orlando Predators before finally making the Bucs' roster. He also had the second most forced fumbles in the NFL last year with seven. An overnight success... five years in the making.
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Old 04-17-2008   #43
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
Thanks. Kind of like Steve Foley, who supposedly wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer either, but had 10 sacks for the Chargers a year after having none for the Texans.

In fairness to the Texans, White was on the Bucs' practice squad, the Falcons' practice squad, the Titans' practice squad, the Saints' camp and practice squad, the Redskins' practice squad, the Cologne Centurions, the Bears' camp, and the Orlando Predators before finally making the Bucs' roster. He also had the second most forced fumbles in the NFL last year with seven. An overnight success... five years in the making.
Welcome aboard as well. Love to see the hpf guys around here (except for sly).
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Old 04-17-2008   #44
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

Dre and Carr. Best and worst. Nobody has done more for one side of the ball, and the team in general, than Dre. No player hindered the Texans more than Carr.

Both were Casserly picks.
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Old 04-18-2008   #45
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

Best:
1. Domanick Davis: we thought we were getting a return specialist and a guy to spell Stacy Mack. We got much more.
2. Andre Johnson: He was #3 over-all but he has meant that much and more to our team over the long haul.
3. DeMeco Ryans: How he lasted into the second round, I'm not sure but I am very glad we ended up with him.
4. Demarcus Faggins: Yes, I know. I know. But how many 6th rounders make their team, let alone starting for stretches (even if it's not all that spectacular)?
5. Mario Williams: He has actually played like a #1 overall pick.
6. Dunta Robinson: Our best d-back since he's been on the team.
7. Owen Daniels: Very productive.

Worst:
1. David Carr: #1 over all, never got comfortable in any of the offenses and then lost his mind.
2. Tony Hollings: I want to punch someone in the face for this.
3. Charles Hill: Uh... yeah.
4. Jason Babin: He was okay as a player -- especially in that first game against SD but dear lord, the price...
5. Dave Ragone: We'll give up a first-day pick for a quarterback who we'll keep as a #3 until we release him. FANTASTIC!
6. Vernand Morrency: Ugh.
7. Jabbar Gaffney: if only because of who else was still available.
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Old 04-18-2008   #46
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

A couple of my personal groundrules in this analysis:
1. The Hakeem Rule: if you get a good player with your pick, it is not a bad pick even if there is (arguably) a better player available. The difference must be tremendous.
2. The Tom Brady Rule: I won't denigrate a pick unless the "shoulda drafted" player was taken shortly thereafter.
3. The Mathis/Spencer rule: injuries or legal problems are forgiven unless the player had a known history at the time of the pick.
4. The I'm Trying to Have a Life Rule: didn't look at 6th round or later. Also didn't undo trades or supplemental picks.

With those rules, here's my roll-call:

THE BEST OF THE BEST
Demeco Ryans--a near-immediate Pro-Bowler in the second round.
Owen Daniels--a solid starter in the fourth round
Domanick Williams/Davis--another fourth round find
Mario--memo to the rest of the world: go screw yourselves. This gets rated ahead of AJ's pick because of all the assumptions that we'd take Bush or Vince!.

GOOD, SOLID PICKS
Andre Johnson--you should get a great player with the #3 pick
Dunta Robinson--thank goodness the Falcons had a thing for Hokies and thus saved us from drafting Me-Angelo.
Jerome Mathis--the Mathis Rule keeps this from being a dud.
Eric Winston--did some good medical investigative work to land a guy once projected as a first-rounder
Fred Weary--not a stunningly great pick, but none of the next 15 or so picks were very distinguished, so under the Tom Brady Rule, this goes down as a decent pick.

QUESTIONABLE
Chester Pitts--in a liberal reading of the Hakeem Rule, I overlook the fact that Clinton Portis went a couple of picks later.
Travis Johnson (the pick, not the trade)--the latter half of the first round that year was a wasteland (best of the rest: Jason Campbell, Aaron Rogers, Fabian Washington), so I can't denigrate the pick itself too much. But trading down when we could have drafted Jamaal Brown or Derrick Johnson?

THE BAD PICKS (this will take awhile)
Jabar Gaffney--Dallas took Andre Gurode five picks later. Wouldn't it have been nice to get an All-Pro to anchor your young O-line?
Jonathan Wells--Alex Brown was one of many, many decent-to-great DEs we missed out on during the Casserly era. Would have been great value for a fourth-round pick.
Jarrod Baxter--only a 5th round pick, but did an expansion team need to draft a fullback in its first draft? Andra Davis--a decent LB--was taken a few picks later.
Bennie Joppru--to get the benefit of the Mathis Rule, you have to show something, anything on the field. The list of players taken shortly thereafter is heartbreaking: Ken Hamlin, Drayton Florence (thug), Kawika Mitchell, Osi Umenyiora, Anquan Bolden. Probably should be in the next category.
Seth Wand--at least we were trying to fix the OL. Not alot drafted right behind him, but Ricky Manning was a good corner.
Glenn Earl--on another team, he probably doesn't stick. Jared Allen went four picks later. Another great pass-rusher passes us by . . .
Ramon Walker--Never heard of him, but you might have heard of the guy taken three picks later: Aaron Kampmann

WHY, GOD? WHY?!?
David Carr--add Julius Peppers to the list of pass-rushers that we were too sexy for.
Charles Hill--inexcusable for an expansion team to draft a guy in the third round who can't make the team. Anyone think that Akin Ayodele or (gulp) Brian Westbrook could have helped us?
Antwan Peek--OK, he was somewhat productive for us, but Lance Briggs and Jason Witten were the next two picks.
Dave Ragone--what a waste of a first-day pick. If you wanted a QB project, a far-better lefty (Chris Simms) was on the board. Or, if you wanted a useful player at another position, you could have had Chris Brown, Angelo Crowell or Justin Fargas
Jason Babin--this is more for the trade as the picks immediately behind Babin were nothing to write home about. But, oh, if we'd have kept our second-rounder, we could have done the entire NFL a favor and snatched Bob Sanders away from the Colts.
Vernand Morency--and there goes another pass-rusher, this time, Justin Tuck. Basically, we passed on the entire New York Giant front seven (minus Strahan).


TOO SOON TO TELL:
Charles Spencer
The Class of 2007

Little wonder we only just now notched our first non-losing season. And, yes, I know that some of those DEs we passed on would not have fit a 3-4. But that was some wretched drafting. And I'm going to grimace whenever I see a highlight of those Giant defenders pounding on Tom Brady during the Super Bowl.

Last edited by Hooston Texan; 04-18-2008 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 04-18-2008   #47
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

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Originally Posted by Hooston Texan View Post
THE BEST OF THE BEST
Demeco Ryans--a near-immediate Pro-Bowler in the second round.
Owen Daniels--a solid starter in the fourth round
Domanick Williams/Davis--another fourth round find
Mario--memo to the rest of the world: go screw yourselves. This gets rated ahead of AJ's pick because of all the assumptions that we'd take Bush or Vince!.

GOOD, SOLID PICKS
Andre Johnson--you should get a great player with the #3 pick
I would switch Mario and Andre. It's too early to say Mario is one of the best picks the Texans have made. He's had one very good season and one "meh" season. Andre Johnson is one of the best receivers in the NFL.
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Old 04-18-2008   #48
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

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Originally Posted by TexanSam View Post
I would switch Mario and Andre. It's too early to say Mario is one of the best picks the Texans have made. He's had one very good season and one "meh" season. Andre Johnson is one of the best receivers in the NFL.
A fair criticism, but I'm giving them more credit for Mario because of the way they bucked the near-universally prevailing wisdom. Still, the story of the 2006 draft is still unfolding . . .
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Old 04-18-2008   #49
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

A quick list of 5 on both sides and a defense of player I've seen mentioned a few times:

Good:

1. Andre Johnson
2. Mario Williams
3. Dunta Robinson
4. Owen Daniels
5. Eric Winston

Bad:
1. David Carr
2. Jason Babin
3. Tony Hollings
4. Charles Hill
5. Dave Ragone

My defense of Jabar Gaffney:
I've seen him listed a few times as a bad pick, but there's no reason to believe that. He was a solid player here who had a lot of potential and would have been, at least, a solid slot receiver here, or at best a good compliment to AJ. We're using the same type of player in that role now with Kevin Walter. Gaffney was a great value at 33 (he had been projected as high as 9th overall), but he was a victim of poor QB play. We know how bad Carr was at progressing through his reads. Gaffney made his mistakes, like all young players are, but he was 21 through most of his rookie year and needed a bit of maturing. Once he got to a team with a good QB, look what happened. If anyone wants to bring up "OMG we could have had Portis", you should be questioning the Pitts selection, since Portis was taken right after him and Pitts had very little football experience.
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Old 04-19-2008   #50
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooston Texan View Post
A couple of my personal groundrules in this analysis:
1. The Hakeem Rule: if you get a good player with your pick, it is not a bad pick even if there is (arguably) a better player available. The difference must be tremendous.
2. The Tom Brady Rule: I won't denigrate a pick unless the "shoulda drafted" player was taken shortly thereafter.
3. The Mathis/Spencer rule: injuries or legal problems are forgiven unless the player had a known history at the time of the pick.
4. The I'm Trying to Have a Life Rule: didn't look at 6th round or later. Also didn't undo trades or supplemental picks.

With those rules, here's my roll-call:

THE BEST OF THE BEST
Demeco Ryans--a near-immediate Pro-Bowler in the second round.
Owen Daniels--a solid starter in the fourth round
Domanick Williams/Davis--another fourth round find
Mario--memo to the rest of the world: go screw yourselves. This gets rated ahead of AJ's pick because of all the assumptions that we'd take Bush or Vince!.

GOOD, SOLID PICKS
Andre Johnson--you should get a great player with the #3 pick
Dunta Robinson--thank goodness the Falcons had a thing for Hokies and thus saved us from drafting Me-Angelo.
Jerome Mathis--the Mathis Rule keeps this from being a dud.
Eric Winston--did some good medical investigative work to land a guy once projected as a first-rounder
Fred Weary--not a stunningly great pick, but none of the next 15 or so picks were very distinguished, so under the Tom Brady Rule, this goes down as a decent pick.

QUESTIONABLE
Chester Pitts--in a liberal reading of the Hakeem Rule, I overlook the fact that Clinton Portis went a couple of picks later.
Travis Johnson (the pick, not the trade)--the latter half of the first round that year was a wasteland (best of the rest: Jason Campbell, Aaron Rogers, Fabian Washington), so I can't denigrate the pick itself too much. But trading down when we could have drafted Jamaal Brown or Derrick Johnson?

THE BAD PICKS (this will take awhile)
Jabar Gaffney--Dallas took Andre Gurode five picks later. Wouldn't it have been nice to get an All-Pro to anchor your young O-line?
Jonathan Wells--Alex Brown was one of many, many decent-to-great DEs we missed out on during the Casserly era. Would have been great value for a fourth-round pick.
Jarrod Baxter--only a 5th round pick, but did an expansion team need to draft a fullback in its first draft? Andra Davis--a decent LB--was taken a few picks later.
Bennie Joppru--to get the benefit of the Mathis Rule, you have to show something, anything on the field. The list of players taken shortly thereafter is heartbreaking: Ken Hamlin, Drayton Florence (thug), Kawika Mitchell, Osi Umenyiora, Anquan Bolden. Probably should be in the next category.
Seth Wand--at least we were trying to fix the OL. Not alot drafted right behind him, but Ricky Manning was a good corner.
Glenn Earl--on another team, he probably doesn't stick. Jared Allen went four picks later. Another great pass-rusher passes us by . . .
Ramon Walker--Never heard of him, but you might have heard of the guy taken three picks later: Aaron Kampmann

WHY, GOD? WHY?!?
David Carr--add Julius Peppers to the list of pass-rushers that we were too sexy for.
Charles Hill--inexcusable for an expansion team to draft a guy in the third round who can't make the team. Anyone think that Akin Ayodele or (gulp) Brian Westbrook could have helped us?
Antwan Peek--OK, he was somewhat productive for us, but Lance Briggs and Jason Witten were the next two picks.
Dave Ragone--what a waste of a first-day pick. If you wanted a QB project, a far-better lefty (Chris Simms) was on the board. Or, if you wanted a useful player at another position, you could have had Chris Brown, Angelo Crowell or Justin Fargas
Jason Babin--this is more for the trade as the picks immediately behind Babin were nothing to write home about. But, oh, if we'd have kept our second-rounder, we could have done the entire NFL a favor and snatched Bob Sanders away from the Colts.
Vernand Morency--and there goes another pass-rusher, this time, Justin Tuck. Basically, we passed on the entire New York Giant front seven (minus Strahan).


TOO SOON TO TELL:
Charles Spencer
The Class of 2007

Little wonder we only just now notched our first non-losing season. And, yes, I know that some of those DEs we passed on would not have fit a 3-4. But that was some wretched drafting. And I'm going to grimace whenever I see a highlight of those Giant defenders pounding on Tom Brady during the Super Bowl.
First, let me compliment you on a fantastic post. Excellent work!
But I do have a couple of nits to pick.

First, I must agree that Andre Johnson belongs with the "Best of the Best" no matter where he was picked. We of ALL people should know that being picked in the top five or ten is no guarantee of success.

Second, pencil me in as another defender of Jabar Gaffney. He sure looks solid with Tom Brady chucking to him. Perhaps he wasn't the bad pick but was paired with a suspect QB.

Third, I'm going to give Fred Bennett and Jacoby Jones the benefit of the doubt and place them with the "Good" bunch. For sure Bennett, for sure, has earned his way out of the "Too Soon to Tell" class and there isn't another place to put him. Maybe Jones hasn't quite yet, but I'm feeling generous. :o)

Lastly, you do realize this exercise will drive us all crazy. Every draft is going to have some hits and some misses.
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Old 04-19-2008   #51
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

Worst pick....selecting Tony Bosselli off the Fa board. However CC spins it, that killed this club progress. Set the club up to Fail in mutipul ways. We still haven't recovered from it.
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Old 04-19-2008   #52
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

A couple of replies here on my late-night magnum opus:

1. Comparisons to other teams. I completely agree that all teams have great picks and busts in some combination. You could play this game for any team. So I can't say if our homerun-to-bust ratio is different from that of other teams. But I suspect we'd be in the bottom half over that time period.

2. Jabar Gaffney. We're going to have to agree to disagree on him. The guy has topped out as a #4 receiver, catching 36 passes last year for the best offense in league history. That's not the stuff of the #33 pick. I agree he may not have been a reach when we drafted him and we did him no favors by saddling him with Carr, but we needed some immediate production out of the second draft pick in franchise history. Even by 2002, the world knew that WRs out of Florida were fools' gold.

3. Hindsight is 20/20. You bet it is. Still, McNair pays his front office tall money to have as much foresight as possible. It appears that he is only now seeing a return on that expenditure.
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Old 04-19-2008   #53
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

best:
Andre Johnson
Mario Williams
DeMeco Ryans
Owen Daniels
Fred Bennet


worst:
D. Carr
R. Hollings
B. Joppru
J. Babin
D. Anderson (selected before just before Colston in the 7th round)
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Old 04-19-2008   #54
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

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Originally Posted by Mr PC View Post
best:
Andre Johnson
Mario Williams
DeMeco Ryans
Owen Daniels
Fred Bennet


worst:
D. Carr
R. Hollings
B. Joppru
J. Babin
D. Anderson (selected before just before Colston in the 7th round)
Anderson one of the worst picks? No way pards...just because one guy had something in him no other team saw doesn't make Anderson a bad pick....using that logic every team in the NFL drafted busts a few years back because nobody drafted Priest Holmes.
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Old 04-19-2008   #55
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

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Anderson one of the worst picks? No way pards...just because one guy had something in him no other team saw doesn't make Anderson a bad pick....using that logic every team in the NFL drafted busts a few years back because nobody drafted Priest Holmes.

Agreed. It's pretty much impossible for a 7th round pick to be a bust.
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Old 04-19-2008   #56
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

I didnt say Anderson was a bust, did I? The question is what are the best/worst draft picks the Texans have made. The Texans were looking for a WR in the 7th round, and we could have had a probowler, but we got David Anderson instead. In my mind, thats a really bad decision.
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Old 04-19-2008   #57
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

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I didnt say Anderson was a bust, did I? The question is what are the best/worst draft picks the Texans have made. The Texans were looking for a WR in the 7th round, and we could have had a probowler, but we got David Anderson instead. In my mind, thats a really bad decision.
Everyone in the NFL passed up Colston. He was the LAST player taken in the draft.
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Old 04-19-2008   #58
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

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Originally Posted by Mr PC View Post
I didnt say Anderson was a bust, did I? The question is what are the best/worst draft picks the Texans have made. The Texans were looking for a WR in the 7th round, and we could have had a probowler, but we got David Anderson instead. In my mind, thats a really bad decision.
You're splitting hairs, and it's still a weak argument. David Anderson is a 7th round pick who's played in 17 games over two years, and is on the roster as we speak. Regardless of who went one pick after him, it's not a bad pick.
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Old 04-19-2008   #59
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

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THE BAD PICKS (this will take awhile)
Jabar Gaffney--Dallas took Andre Gurode five picks later. Wouldn't it have been nice to get an All-Pro to anchor your young O-line?
Jonathan Wells--Alex Brown was one of many, many decent-to-great DEs we missed out on during the Casserly era. Would have been great value for a fourth-round pick.
Jarrod Baxter--only a 5th round pick, but did an expansion team need to draft a fullback in its first draft? Andra Davis--a decent LB--was taken a few picks later.
Bennie Joppru--to get the benefit of the Mathis Rule, you have to show something, anything on the field. The list of players taken shortly thereafter is heartbreaking: Ken Hamlin, Drayton Florence (thug), Kawika Mitchell, Osi Umenyiora, Anquan Bolden. Probably should be in the next category.
Seth Wand--at least we were trying to fix the OL. Not alot drafted right behind him, but Ricky Manning was a good corner.
Glenn Earl--on another team, he probably doesn't stick. Jared Allen went four picks later. Another great pass-rusher passes us by . . .
Ramon Walker--Never heard of him, but you might have heard of the guy taken three picks later: Aaron Kampmann

WHY, GOD? WHY?!?
David Carr--add Julius Peppers to the list of pass-rushers that we were too sexy for.
Charles Hill--inexcusable for an expansion team to draft a guy in the third round who can't make the team. Anyone think that Akin Ayodele or (gulp) Brian Westbrook could have helped us?
Antwan Peek--OK, he was somewhat productive for us, but Lance Briggs and Jason Witten were the next two picks.
Dave Ragone--what a waste of a first-day pick. If you wanted a QB project, a far-better lefty (Chris Simms) was on the board. Or, if you wanted a useful player at another position, you could have had Chris Brown, Angelo Crowell or Justin Fargas
Jason Babin--this is more for the trade as the picks immediately behind Babin were nothing to write home about. But, oh, if we'd have kept our second-rounder, we could have done the entire NFL a favor and snatched Bob Sanders away from the Colts.
Vernand Morency--and there goes another pass-rusher, this time, Justin Tuck. Basically, we passed on the entire New York Giant front seven (minus Strahan).
Anyone find it interesting that those picks were all from the first regime?

And then there's "crap shoot" and "crystal ball".

Must be draft time.
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Old 04-19-2008   #60
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Default Re: Texans best and worst draft picks

wonder why Wali Lundy didn't make anyone's list...? Is he exempt because he was a 7th round guy? If so, then David Anderson is exempt also.
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