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Old 12-06-2004   #21
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Originally Posted by TheOgre
DCowboysGal,

You are football savy and cute, nice combo. Too bad you are a Cowboy's fan.

haha yall are turning this into a chat room !

Besides let me put this all down SHORT and clear to you guys. Ok offense gets the ball goes 3 and out, Defense comes on the field gives a little but still holds strong, so offense gets ball again 3 and out ok now the defense is back on the field and our D-Line looks like they are stuck behind a brick wall, while all this is happening the GOOD secondary we have is running all over the field getting a little worn down but they AGAIN hold the other team to just 3 points, ok so CARR gets the ball again and WOW our offense turns the ball over, so here comes the DEFENSE again well by this time they are already tired, because they have been off the field for a little over a minute.

So yall can complain about what yalld like, Our D always holds up at first, its just the O cant stay on the field long enough for the D to catch their breath, and it RESULTS in a BLOW OUT !
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Old 12-06-2004   #22
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What I am disappointed is that I expect more from a defense at this stage of the game... It isn't deloach martin and wright on the line .. it is R. Smith, Payne and Walker.. LB crew we replaced Posey with Babin .. Secondary we got rid of Stevens and got Coleman back there and moved a Rookie in the CB spot.. I don't recall getting blown out so many times this late in the season..

I recall in 2002, we where on the field a bunch, but to me we played smarter back then.. seems we played smarter on special teams and the field position battle.(BTW our offense was ranked last in 2002 and next to last in 2003) this season it is hovering in the teens but our defense only has 16 sacks and is 29th in the league..

I may be still ticked about the game and I don't expect playoffs, but I thought we would be competitive against a Denver,Indy, 2nd half of a Packers and Jets game..
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Old 12-06-2004   #23
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Originally Posted by TexansTrueFan
Besides let me put this all down SHORT and clear to you guys. Ok offense gets the ball goes 3 and out, Defense comes on the field gives a little but still holds strong, so offense gets ball again 3 and out ok now the defense is back on the field and our D-Line looks like they are stuck behind a brick wall, while all this is happening the GOOD secondary we have is running all over the field getting a little worn down but they AGAIN hold the other team to just 3 points, ok so CARR gets the ball again and WOW our offense turns the ball over, so here comes the DEFENSE again well by this time they are already tired, because they have been off the field for a little over a minute.

So yall can complain about what yalld like, Our D always holds up at first, its just the O cant stay on the field long enough for the D to catch their breath, and it RESULTS in a BLOW OUT !
That all might be good if it bore any resemblance to what happened. The Texans moved 50 yards and burned 5 and a half minutes off the clock on their first possession. On their second possession they moved 30 yards (would have been 77 but for the holding call on DD's run) and took 4 minutes off the clock. On their 3rd possession they went 75 yards for a TD and took over 6 minutes off the clock. That was the 1st half. The O had two three and out possession in the 2nd half, and they were not back to back. The D has to take responsibility for being on the field so long as well because from the opening drive of the 2nd half they didn't 3 and out or quickly get the Jets off the field--5 minutes on 1st drive, 1 minute on the second (they started on our 4), 7 minutes on the 3rd drive, etc. Yes the O could have helped them out by keeping them off the field but they could have kept themselves off the field by making plays.
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Old 12-06-2004   #24
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That all might be good if it bore any resemblance to what happened. The Texans moved 50 yards and burned 5 and a half minutes off the clock on their first possession. On their second possession they moved 30 yards (would have been 77 but for the holding call on DD's run) and took 4 minutes off the clock. On their 3rd possession they went 75 yards for a TD and took over 6 minutes off the clock. That was the 1st half. The O had two three and out possession in the 2nd half, and they were not back to back. The D has to take responsibility for being on the field so long as well because from the opening drive of the 2nd half they didn't 3 and out or quickly get the Jets off the field--5 minutes on 1st drive, 1 minute on the second (they started on our 4), 7 minutes on the 3rd drive, etc. Yes the O could have helped them out by keeping them off the field but they could have kept themselves off the field by making plays.

haha come on man i wasnt stating REAL stats i was just stating that if the O could stay on the field and score a few points it would REALLY help the D out, I know Defense wins championships but come on, they need a little help from the O ! And we are FAR away from a championship,

Hmmm we will win the state championship next season
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Old 12-06-2004   #25
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wait so your saying is the D didnt do a good job in the first half ???? Man they were completely worn out in the second and the D did give the O a chance to make some things happen !
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Old 12-06-2004   #26
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wait so your saying is the D didnt do a good job in the first half ???? Man they were completely worn out in the second and the D did give the O a chance to make some things happen !
What I am saying is that the D did not get worn out in the 1st half, they had almost equal play time as the Jets D. The Jets D came out in the 2nd and made plays to get our O off the field--our D did not make plays to get the Jets O off the field. Our D cannot control how the O performs (yes the O can help them out) but they can control their own destiny by beating the opposing O.
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Old 12-06-2004   #27
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Why didn't they march off the penalty from the spot of the illegal block on the DD TD run?

Also, how can you pick up the flag on the Moss punt return and not on the DD TD run? They seemed about the same to me.
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Old 12-06-2004   #28
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Personally with all the crud that went on with the officials, delays, the punt situation in the endzone, and so on, I think everyone including the D got plenty of rest in this game! LOL
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Old 12-06-2004   #29
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Personally with all the crud that went on with the officials, delays, the punt situation in the endzone, and so on, I think everyone including the D got plenty of rest in this game! LOL

HAHA yeah very true, i got so tired of the game, the officials were just plain DUMB !
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Old 12-06-2004   #30
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At first you blast the OL in general(as if they are all total losers), but when you discuss individual players:
McKinney is the only one who is a real mistake, the other 4 are atleast ok, show promise, and/or still adjusting to the new blocking scheme.
So then what's your conclusion on the OL - are we just one player away coupled with successfully adjusting to the new blocking scheme, or are we multiple players/light years away from having a descent OL ?

My conclusion on the offensive line is that we're finally looking at a group of players who might spend significant time together and be in the same spot two or maybe even three years from now. The offensive line is way behind where I'd hoped they'd be by now and I'm sure they're way behind where the Texans hoped they'd be by now. I'm happy with the talent they've assembled finally and dissappointed with how that talent has been performing this season. I'm not without hope but I'm lacking faith in whoever is teaching/coaching/motivating this crew.

Hey, I was an Oiler fan so I know a group of talented underachievers when I see one. I also know where to look for the reason that's happening.

Starting out the plan was (as I understood it) to have McKinney play center, and he did. The tackle positions would be held down by Boselli and Young who were plucked from the Jaguars and Jets organizations to protect the new "Boy Wonder". The Texans were hopeful in regards to Boselli's return and high on Ryan Young but niether one of them panned out. Chester Pitts was going to be the LG and grow up sandwiched between Boselli and McKinney so he'd have the support of two veterans while Fred Weary or one of a number of journeyman guards would do likewise on the right side. They intended to start a line that went something like Vet-Rookie-Vet-Rookie/Lesser Player-Vet and that was a sound plan except that niether tackle was much of a factor. Boselli never played a down and Young was hurt much of the season. When he wasn't injured he failed to impress the Texans coaches and he was let go after the season ended.

Coming out of 2002 you had a starting LT who never played a down, a starting LG who played the whole season at LT, McKinney at center who made it through his first year here at a less than impressive level, a crew of RG's who to a man stunk it up, and a RT who was supposed to be one of your bookends getting his tail tossed out the door. Obviously the Texans "plan" wasn't panning out.

Going into 2003 you had hopes of finally seeing Boselli at LT and Chester Pitts finally starting at LG. McKinney was back at center of course but as to the rest of the line we would have Fred Weary catching up and Todd Washington available. Milford Brown was there and Zack Weigert was going to play RT or RG or whatever. We were going to have some real linemen on the field for a change. Again it didn't work out exactly like the Texans had planned. Boselli was a goner and Chester Pitts was still stuck out at LT. Another year of possible work at LG went down the drain. While Pitts didn't stink it up at LT in 2003 he was getting experience at a position he wasn't destined to play. In 2003 we were a team with a lot of guards and few tackles. Weigert is a much better guard than tackle and Seth Wand was an understrength rookie from out of nowhere. This bunch did a heck of a job though. Think about this for a moment. The only real consistency they had from the previous year was from Pitts and McKinney. The LG, RG, and RT were all newcomers or at least new starters. They cut the sacks down bigtime and opened holes for the running game. Progress was being made.

Fast forward to 2004 and we're adding another tackle which we really needed to do. Todd Wade was going to give us our first look at a natural, quality RT. Seth Wand was given the go and Chester Pitts was heading for his natural position for the first time ever. McKinney was still there to man the turnstile and wave people past once he'd hiked the ball but Weigert was at his best position at RG. Nothing but good things could be on the horizon for this group. The previous season we'd seen fewer true quality players come together to play reasonably well by the second half of the year. These guys were going to do something. Or were they? The Texans decided it was time to change the way they run block and we all went "Cool, we're going to be just like the Broncos! Domanick is going to be a terror now!" but that didn't happen. There are 5 games remaining and we don't look much better than we did when the season started. What's worse the Texans line is doing a very poor job of protecting a skittish QB who's play deteriorates the moment he begins to feel like it's another 5 sack day.

The zone blocking scheme didn't screw up the pass protection. It has nothing to do with the pass protection. The pass protection just never developed at all. During the first half of the season I saw no reason why the lines play should not improve later in the year. That's almost a constant throughout the league. Given that you've got players good enough to play at this level (finally, in year 3 I can say I think we do) and given that they've played together long enough (12 games, 4 preseason games, a training camp and summer camps) you should expect to see them improve. I'm not saying they're going to be dominating the league by now but they should be better at this than they were in week 1 of the season. That's not an unreasonable expectation. That's not high hopes and homer faith. We're fielding the best players we've ever had but getting less from them than we did from the 2003 version. That's not progress.

I simply wonder whether or not our offensive line coach is capable of getting this group to play at their best. This group is underachieving right now to the detriment of the whole team.

If you think Carr is the Franchise, AJ is a future HOF reciever, and Davis has the chance to be a real franchise back then think of what they'd be like if they had quality play from the most important 5 guys on the field.
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Old 12-06-2004   #31
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Given that you've got players good enough to play at this level (finally, in year 3 I can say I think we do) and given that they've played together long enough (12 games, 4 preseason games, a training camp and summer camps) you should expect to see them improve. I'm not saying they're going to be dominating the league by now but they should be better at this than they were in week 1 of the season. That's not an unreasonable expectation. That's not high hopes and homer faith. We're fielding the best players we've ever had but getting less from them than we did from the 2003 version. That's not progress.
I simply wonder whether or not our offensive line coach is capable of getting this group to play at their best. This group is underachieving right now to the detriment of the whole team.
OK, so it looks like you're saying we've fianlly got the talent we need and they should have had adaquate time to adapt to the new blocking scheme.
And therefor you're saying it's a coaching issue, maybe not the head coach himself but the man he has chosen to coach the OL personnel.
I appreciate that explanation. Thanks.
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Old 12-06-2004   #32
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Good thread by Herv. It's great to have someone take the time to think out and express exactly what they are thinking in a well laid out manner. I have a few dissagreements, but I think you are on-target with much of this.
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Old 12-06-2004   #33
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I think that Wade and Wiegert make a good right side of the line. They are average pass blockers but good run blockers (although Wade is the better pass-blocker of the two). I don't think Wand and Pitts have enough experience in their positions to be fully graded yet. I think when Pitts gets experience, he will be an average pass blocker and good run blocker too. I would expect Wand to eventually be the best pass-blocker on the line.


McKinney IMO is a weak link. He gets manhandled and really doesn't have the potential to get any better. I'd like to see us draft or sign a C to compete with him next year. At the very least, I'd like us to begin to groom his replacement.
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Old 12-06-2004   #34
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What we have is a team that was 4-4 after 8 game and has now lost 3 out of 4, after those 8 games. An 8-8 record would be a good record because you can at least say an 8-8 team is inconsistent.
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Old 12-06-2004   #35
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very good thread. i agree with almost all that you said. that being said it might not be as bad as it sounds. hopefully a couple o-lineman and d-lineman will fix everything.

a better d-line will make the linebackers and defensive backfield better. hopefully we address the d-line with this draft.

a better o-line will make carr/davis/and the wr's better. i think the oline will be better next year without any new additions, but i think they will probally add at least one o-lineman. joppru might help or a free agent te.

overall i think we are about set at the skill positions its the line that needs help. hopefully we get that help next year and that could cause a major improvement in our team.

if we get the better line play next year and we still are not a good team thats when we really have to start worrying. then you have to look at carr/davis/the linebackers/and wr's(except aj).
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Old 12-06-2004   #36
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Originally Posted by TheOgre

McKinney IMO is a weak link. He gets manhandled and really doesn't have the potential to get any better. I'd like to see us draft or sign a C to compete with him next year. At the very least, I'd like us to begin to groom his replacement.
Agreed. If anyone still has a tape or on TIVO of the Titans game, watch the play where Carr was sacked/almost sacked in the endzone for a safety. Carr never had a chance. I forget which Titan it was, but he just ran right over Mckinney like he wasn't even there, and was on Carr in less than a second. In general our line is very passive. They just don't play physical. Capers wants a physical offense with a bunch of nice guys. We need at least one guy willing to play smash mouth imo.

As to the main part of the thread - Good stuff Herv! I know that had to take a lot of time to write, and I think in some respects we are nearing a crossroads for this franchise. I think this offseason will be the most important ever in determing where this team is headed in both the near, and longer terms. There are more questions than answers, but here are few that must be resolved if we are to head to a super Bowl - If this team is to ever progress these questions must be answered and a solid plan to correct or address these must occur.

Are the offensive line problems due to talent, scheme, coaching, or all of the above?

Why does Carr play one way at home, and another on the road?

Does Carr have the intangibles to lead a team to a Super Bowl?

Will we ever see Joppru on the field and at 100%?

Is Davis the answer at RB? Will Hollings always have a perputual hamstring injury? Do we draft a back high, go with a free agent, or is the answer on the roster?

Will Seth Payne return to his pre-injury form? Will Gary Walker ever be the player we saw in 2002?

Will Babin live up to his draft and trade status? Will Peek be able to play the run well enough to stay on the field? Who or where will the pass rush come from? Is it coaching, players, or scheme?

What direction to we take in FA and the draft? Who do we resign long term, and who do we let go?

These are some of the questions I have that really need to be addressed between now and the start of 2005. I'm sure there are others as well. I know I have the questions, but I'm not sure even they know all of the answers.
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Old 12-06-2004   #37
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That is a horrible and pathetic thing to say in that segment....Carr is NOTTTT the reason they lost....So since the Packers lost soo bad also does that mean it was Farve's fault??? I was shocked they even wrote something like that....That is the most pathetic and cruel thing i read about Carr....Well i will stand behind him no matter how bad they lose... Gosh the man feels bad enough already lets just rub salt in his wound....I still can't believe they were sooo harsh in that article..... Thats just not right....
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Old 12-06-2004   #38
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Agreed. If anyone still has a tape or on TIVO of the Titans game, watch the play where Carr was sacked/almost sacked in the endzone for a safety. Carr never had a chance. I forget which Titan it was, but he just ran right over Mckinney like he wasn't even there, and was on Carr in less than a second. In general our line is very passive. They just don't play physical. Capers wants a physical offense with a bunch of nice guys. We need at least one guy willing to play smash mouth imo.

As to the main part of the thread - Good stuff Herv! I know that had to take a lot of time to write, and I think in some respects we are nearing a crossroads for this franchise. I think this offseason will be the most important ever in determing where this team is headed in both the near, and longer terms. There are more questions than answers, but here are few that must be resolved if we are to head to a super Bowl - If this team is to ever progress these questions must be answered and a solid plan to correct or address these must occur.

Are the offensive line problems due to talent, scheme, coaching, or all of the above? new scheme/ talent

Why does Carr play one way at home, and another on the road? because he is young. and his o-line is not real good.

Does Carr have the intangibles to lead a team to a Super Bowl? yes.

Will we ever see Joppru on the field and at 100%? yes. but it will be 2006 before he can be any help to us. next year will basically be his rookie year and he's not played in two years.

Is Davis the answer at RB? yes. Will Hollings always have a perputual hamstring injury? yes. Do we draft a back high, go with a free agent, or is the answer on the roster? answer is on roster in dd.

Will Seth Payne return to his pre-injury form? Will Gary Walker ever be the player we saw in 2002? no and no

Will Babin live up to his draft and trade status? yes(i hope). Will Peek be able to play the run well enough to stay on the field? yes. Who or where will the pass rush come from? peek/babin. Is it coaching, players, or scheme? coaching/ scheme(need to blitz more.)

What direction to we take in FA and the draft? lineman/and maybe a te. Who do we resign long term, and who do we let go? let go foreman/(that ss forgot his name)/keep the rest.

These are some of the questions I have that really need to be addressed between now and the start of 2005. I'm sure there are others as well. I know I have the questions, but I'm not sure even they know all of the answers.

you want answers i got answers.
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Old 12-06-2004   #39
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Originally Posted by texansgal8
That is a horrible and pathetic thing to say in that segment....Carr is NOTTTT the reason they lost....So since the Packers lost soo bad also does that mean it was Farve's fault??? I was shocked they even wrote something like that....That is the most pathetic and cruel thing i read about Carr....Well i will stand behind him no matter how bad they lose... Gosh the man feels bad enough already lets just rub salt in his wound....I still can't believe they were sooo harsh in that article..... Thats just not right....
Carr was a VERY large reason they lost that game. Why sugarcoat it? He isn't infallible. He stunk. Several key plays defined that game for him. The two 4th down plays, the pick right before haltime, and the pick in the second half. He was generally incauurate, overthrew, underthrew, and made me want to throw up. Basically, this is his day summed up.
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Old 12-06-2004   #40
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Vinny since you agree with Herv's assessment then you have to look at the coaching staff. I'm sorry, but the coaching staff is the biggest problem with this ball club. If Casserly is barking at the officials then you know he is getting frustrated. I think we have been the victums of some very bad calls, but we also incourage those calls by being the kind of team we are and the way we play. Sorry, but the talent on this ball club is simply not being developed. I'm going to be hammered for another statement, and that is, Bradford should have been released long ago. You fill in who could have taken his place.
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