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Old 12-05-2004   #21
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I know the refs are professionals and I don't blame them for the loss. But after the grounding call.. 1st thing I though of was baseball and when a player jaws at the umpire about a strike or ball. that "gray" area of whether it is a strike or ball becomes alittle smaller and questionable calls go against you.. back to topic.. the grounding call where there is a missed route is something that is never called eventhough it is a judgement call. My feelings is that "gray" area became smaller after our coaches jawed at the refs

but that was my feelings at the time of the call.
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Old 12-05-2004   #22
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Personally, I think it was grounding.. in the technical term of it as there was not a reciever in the area (even though there was no pressue).

Hey, if the QB and WR can't get on the same page.... better go find that book and re-read it. There's gonna be a test on it every Sunday.
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Old 12-05-2004   #23
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Originally Posted by A4toZ
Personally, I think it was grounding.. in the technical term of it as there was not a reciever in the area (even though there was no pressue).

Hey, if the QB and WR can't get on the same page.... better go find that book and re-read it. There's gonna be a test on it every Sunday.
my feelings exactly
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Old 12-05-2004   #24
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From the NFL Rulebook:

Quote:
Intentional Grounding of Forward Pass

1. Intentional grounding of a forward pass is a foul: loss of down and 10 yards from previous spot if passer is in the field of play or loss of down at the spot of the foul if it occurs more than 10 yards behind the line or safety if passer is in his own end zone when ball is released.

2. Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion.

3. Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer, while out of the pocket and facing an imminent loss of yardage, throws a pass that lands at or beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including if the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or end line).
There wasn't an "imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense". For a change. Just a blown play by the Texans and a blown call by the ref. I'm hoping that this will be Tom White's last year officiating NFL games.
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Old 12-05-2004   #25
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it reminded me of a few years ago when Dan Marino took a snap and fired the ball (he was around the opponents 10 yard line) and it it the crossbar of the field goal.. they called it grounding.. and all Dan could do was laugh... There were no pressure of a sack or anything (if I recall right)
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Old 12-05-2004   #26
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Thanks Lucky for the find... I think that highlighted area can be subject to a viewpoint - doesn't the defense pretty much always bring some pressure and since Carr took some steps back to pass.....

But regardless, splitting hairs.
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Old 12-05-2004   #27
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...just imagine if Capers was'nt known as a defensive minded coach
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Old 12-05-2004   #28
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The Jets were the better team and while momentum etc. can change games dramatically, a good team would have responded to bad calls from refs by coming back harder instead of folding. So basically, the Texans proved they weren't as good a team by responding badly.

That said, there were several bad calls:

1) No blow to the head call when Carr when down. "The ball was already in the air..." What BS is that? Every roughing the passer call comes while the ball is in the air. You aren't allowed to hit a QB in the head. Earlier this year one Texan (Smith or Deloach I believe) was tagged after the ball was in the air for brushing his hand on a QB's head.

2) Block in the back on the kick. His hand touched the 5 on 54's back numbers. Don't know how that can be called on the side. Did it affect the play? Probably not, but a gazillion return penalties are called each year that didn't affect the return. Plus, it is one thing to not call a technically correct penalty that doesn't affect a play and totally another to pick the flag up after the correct call was made.

3) Carr's intentional grounding. Has to be one of the worst calls ever. As the commentators said there are 3+ plays in most games where the QB and WR miscommunicate and no one has ever called that as intentional grounding before.

The Texans had plenty of other problems today contributing to losing this game--they didn't need bad officiating on top of it.
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Old 12-05-2004   #29
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I'd argue that the Texans only TD was a gift from the officials. The illegal contact on T Buck was pretty cheesy. The int grounding was a bad call but bad calls or no-calls didn't lose this game. The Texans offense and defense was inept in the second half. Too many of these "snowballs" when on the road. Line up and beat someone for a change.
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Old 12-05-2004   #30
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We are just not experienced or good enough at all positions to win games like this. We expect way too much from this young team. Just keep it together and the necassary pieces will come.
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Old 12-05-2004   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnhcarrfans
We are just not experienced or good enough at all positions to win games like this. We expect way too much from this young team. Just keep it together and the necassary pieces will come.
What does effort have to do with experience and "good enough?"
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Old 12-05-2004   #32
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The TEXANS lost this one due to a number of reasons:

IMHO (in order of importance):

1. Inability to overcome momentum shift. Granted, it was caused by several inept / borderline calls & bad breaks (starting with the rotten bounce on the Jets punt), but we've got to overcome those, especially on the road. Texans really looked like they 'mailed it in' from there on out.

2. Poor Defensive play, esp. in run pursuit. We got absolutely HANDLED by the Jets line, and our outside contain was just horrible.

3. Poor decision-making by Carr. He could easily have ended the day with 5+ picks. AJ made him look better than he should have on several occasions.

The "Good" things I saw today:

1. The O-Line actually seemed to show up. I know the Jets lost their #1 pass-rusher to injury early, but we still looked FAR better in protection than usual.

2. DD seemed to be running with more "confidence", and showed some burst. The big one may have gotten called back, but it was still a bright spot for him personally.

3. The play-calling appeared more balanced, and more willing to take some chances. Our failures in the passing game today weren't due to bad play design, just poor execution by the QB. Maybe having Stanley injured during warmups wasn't such a bad thing.

The Refs didn't lose this one for us, though they obviously had a HUGE contribution to the momentum shift. That said, they looked like one of the worst crews in NFL history for about 5 minutes there. As for their contribution to our first TD...was it a "cheap" call?...maybe, but at least it was by the book and supposedly an "area of importance" this year. The same can't be said for the "wave-off" of the Punt return flag or the Carr "intentional grounding" calls.

Last edited by disaacks3; 12-05-2004 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 12-05-2004   #33
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Quote:
We expect way too much from this young team.
If this was 2002, or even last year with the injuries, I'd agree with you.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more than 48 yards and zero points in two quarters of football.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more than being outscored 109-34 in three consecutive road games.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more than the ineptitute and lifelessness we've seen in recent road games.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a mostly veteran defensive front to hold an opponent to under 210 rushing yards in a game.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect at least a 7-9 record from this team. They will need to win two more games to get there. This team doesn't appear to have the fortitude to win another road game. If they win fewer than 7 games this year, it will be a disappointment considering their relative lack of injuries.
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Old 12-05-2004   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj.
I'd argue that the Texans only TD was a gift from the officials. The illegal contact on T Buck was pretty cheesy. The int grounding was a bad call but bad calls or no-calls didn't lose this game. The Texans offense and defense was inept in the second half. Too many of these "snowballs" when on the road. Line up and beat someone for a change.
I agree that the better team won today. I just think that bad officiating detracts from the game and this was a bad officiating day.
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Old 12-06-2004   #35
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Curtis Martin walked all over our defense and we scored 7 points on a free play. We got our butts kicked by 22 points. The block in the back on the return really wasn't a foul. The flag never should've been thrown. The flag that gave us the free play wasn't much of a foul either. The refs were just plain goofy today, but we got killed. The way I see it, is that we were outgunned and lucky to hold on in the first half. Many, many times, a team like us will play hard and hold on in the first half against a better team, but get worn out and dominated in the second half. I don't know about you guys, but I wasn't thinking at half-time that we would win this game. I was thinking that the defense has done well in the red-zone SO FAR, but it won't last, and that we got a lucky 7 points.

If the refs had been stellar, maybe this is a closer game, but we still would've lost.

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Old 12-06-2004   #36
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Yep, we're still a year (or two) away from being a good team.

They just don't seem to overcome adversity on a consistent basis. If bad ref calls can derail your teams momentum, then it is likely that you are not a good team.

We are a pretty one dimensional team, and easy to figure out, at that. We just don't scare anybody at this point in our history and development.

Face it, we're doing alright this year to finish 6-10, and really good for us if it's 7-9.

(and I'll be content with 6-10...it's still an improvement over last year!)
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