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Old 02-29-2008   #161
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

This was kind of a parallel discussion in a different thread but figured I'd pull this part out and put it in here too:

Just for reference:
98.9% Chargers
98.7% Patriots
93.9% Steelers
93.4% Colts
82.3% Jaguars
69.5% Titans

These are the % of snaps taken by their Starting QB. The Titans are really an exception because they don't rely on their QB to win games. VY is IMHO almost a hinderance because of his style of play. In this league (and yes I will be doing more analysis of this) if you have you don't have consistency at the QB position you're not going to win many games.

60 different QB's started a game last year.

In fact here are the QB's to start every game for their team last season:

Hasslebeck 10
P Manning 13
E Manning 10
Farve 13
Kitna 7
Cutler 7
Romo 13
Palmer 7
Brady 16
Rivers 11
Brees 7

If you're counting, that's an average of 10.4 wins.

If you didn't have your QB start every game.... you won an average of 6.1 games. That's why I'm not so worried about a backup QB. Rather than worrying about who the backup is we need to worry about getting a quality guy and standing him upright and keeping him in there for the Majority of the year.

Mike
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Old 02-29-2008   #162
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

The history of Texans 2's and 3's"

2002:
2 Jabar Gaffney Florida
2 Chester Pitts San Diego State
3 Fred Weary Tennessee
3 Charles Hill Maryland
2003:
2 Tony Hollings Georgia Tech suplapmental
2 Ben Joppru Michigan
3 Antwan Peek Cincinnati
3 Seth Wand Northwest Missouri State
2004:
No 2nd or 3rds
2005:
3 Vernand Morency Oklahoma State
2006:
2 DeMeco Ryans Alabama
3 Charles Spencer Pittsburgh
2007:
3 Jones Jacoby Lane

The only guy on that list that is more valuable than Sage is Demeco. Had Spencer stayed healthy, then maybe he would also be more valuable than Sage.

That means they have had at best 2 players more valuable than Sage out of 12 total 2nd and 3rd round picks. So there is a 1 in 6 chance we get someone better. Sounds like a bad deal to me.
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Old 02-29-2008   #163
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

Of course, how many of those picks were made by C&C Mediocraty Factory?
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Old 02-29-2008   #164
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingBull View Post

2006:
2 DeMeco Ryans Alabama
3 Charles Spencer Pittsburgh
You left Winston off the list.
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Old 02-29-2008   #165
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

My bad...
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Old 02-29-2008   #166
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingBull View Post
The history of Texans 2's and 3's"

2002:
2 Jabar Gaffney Florida
2 Chester Pitts San Diego State
3 Fred Weary Tennessee
3 Charles Hill Maryland
2003:
2 Tony Hollings Georgia Tech suplapmental
2 Ben Joppru Michigan
3 Antwan Peek Cincinnati
3 Seth Wand Northwest Missouri State
2004:
No 2nd or 3rds
2005:
3 Vernand Morency Oklahoma State
2006:
2 DeMeco Ryans Alabama
3 Charles Spencer Pittsburgh
2007:
3 Jones Jacoby Lane

The only guy on that list that is more valuable than Sage is Demeco. Had Spencer stayed healthy, then maybe he would also be more valuable than Sage.

That means they have had at best 2 players more valuable than Sage out of 12 total 2nd and 3rd round picks. So there is a 1 in 6 chance we get someone better. Sounds like a bad deal to me.

Ok so let me get this straight. We are looking at the ENTIRE FRANCHISE history? We shouldn't maybe judge based on what the current regime has done with their picks? Say Spencer, Winston,Ryans and JJ? Since the guys who would make our picks are the ones that made those should we say that we have like an 3/4 (depending on JJ)?

I've already conceeded that its a gamble. But we're not going to get any better if one of our few claims to fame is "best backup QB".

mike
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Old 02-29-2008   #167
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

i agree that sage is worth more than a third round pick after his performances when schaub went down. however, we gotta ask ourselves "is sage the future qb of our franchise if matt doesn't work out?"

i don't think he is. while he is a capable backup, we have more pressing needs (future lt, oline depth, rb, cb, dline, olb [or maybe even mlb if we want to move demeco back outside]). if matt schaub takes another cheap shot and gets reinjured, honestly so what if SR steps in and wins us two more games? are we any closer to winning a championship with him as our signal caller? i have a lot of respect for what sage accomplished last year, but if schaub isn't the long term answer then we have more important needs than a quality backup qb.

if we get offered a 2nd rounder or the equivalent, i say take it and sign another backup, especially since this year's draft is so deep at our positions of need. otherwise we're taking steps sideways instead of forwards.
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Old 02-29-2008   #168
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox View Post
Last season Sage was at least as valuable to us as Schaub was, and we don't have enough evidence on Schaub yet to tell if that trend will continue (durability?). I wouldn't even contemplate trading Rosenfels for less than a 2nd, with the caveat that I'd have to have a good alternative available before I'd trade him period.
Can't the same be said about Sage? What has he done in his career that everyone sees him as the savior? The dude was a backup that had a few good games when the starter went down. There is no evidence that Sage is going to continue the hot streak he was on. They both could turn out to be a Kelly Holcomb/Rob Johnson type. Had a few great games and has been riding that wave ever since.
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Old 02-29-2008   #169
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

Hoth-Boy you make some excellent points. I'm with you bro. Get something while we still hold the cards. His value will either drop next year or he's going to pack up his bags and leave town. Buy low sell high concept.
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Old 02-29-2008   #170
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

What I find so interesting in this thread is how cavalier some are treating our QB situation as relates to Sage's value, Sage vs. Schaub as Texans starter and the advantage that a Qb enjoys when he is given the nod at the beginning of a season as a starter to prove or to disprove himself (which Sage has never had that opportunity) and have the offense built around his strengths, or at least with him in the melt of priorities. For all of those who were so easy to complain of the 8-8 season and to forget the 2-14 season, it seems that those same people are willing to gamble that Schaub will do well and stay healthy, not give fair "competitition between 2 QBs a chance to declare the strongest and most consistent during preseason................and to say, Oh Well, if Schaub goes down and we trade Schaub, we can always get someone in there to do the job.................and if the new backup can't hold his own in our system?...............there's always NEXT YEAR. Those same people with the cavalier attitude will be the first and loudest to deny their support of the resulting situation. At this point in the franchise history, we should not be looking to next year to REBUILD our major pieces...........we should be looking to HOLD ON TO and BUILD ON TO our present precious successes.

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Old 02-29-2008   #171
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

And the great backup QB myth continues...
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Old 02-29-2008   #172
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

I say we do and and re-sign Carr..........................Just kidding
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Old 02-29-2008   #173
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloy View Post
oh nose :/

2 second-round picks is what we paid to get our starting QB. Tell the Vikes that the price hasn't changed
Agreed: the price starts with both of their threes this year. Er do two twos equal one one ? The threes and a second in '09 would satisfy me.
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Old 02-29-2008   #174
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATRAIN View Post
I say we do and and re-sign Carr..........................Just kidding
I haven't negative reped anyone in a while...you were close.

My Team Roll the dice with the rookies in '09. Dixon @ 5th round...Josh Johnson in the seventh.
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Old 02-29-2008   #175
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
What I find so interesting in this thread is how cavalier some are treating our QB situation as relates to Sage's value, Sage vs. Schaub as Texans starter and the advantage that a Qb enjoys when he is given the nod at the beginning of a season as a starter to prove or to disprove himself (which Sage has never had that opportunity) and have the offense built around his strengths, or at least with him in the melt of priorities. For all of those who were so easy to complain of the 8-8 season and to forget the 2-14 season, it seems that those same people are willing to gamble that Schaub will do well and stay healthy, not give fair "competitition between 2 QBs a chance to declare the strongest and most consistent during preseason................and to say, Oh Well, if Schaub goes down and we trade Schaub, we can always get someone in there to do the job.................and if the new backup can't hold his own in our system?...............there's always NEXT YEAR. Those same people with the cavalier attitude will be the first and loudest to deny their support of the resulting situation. At this point in the franchise history, we should not be looking to next year to REBUILD our major pieces...........we should be looking to HOLD ON TO and BUILD ON TO our present precious successes.


All of that is true CNNNNND. But what is also true is you get at least two extra ducets to pick the guys on this draft board from 64 to 99. Lot of teams going to get into the second day and become ....desperate not filling critcal needs. Want to go to a super bowl....up grade the tallent. One way to do that is to controll a draft board. Do you trade Hershel Walker...you do if you get a shot to hold people up in the third round of a very tallented draft board. It's a huge gamble. What are you gambling a 10- 6 season if they clean up the turn overs and get lucky with the injuries this year ? Me, I take a shot at controlling the '08 and '09 draft boards. Especailly with this GM. Give Smith some wiggle room and turn him loose.
But you are correct in your assesment.
It's a huge gamble.

Quote:
Minnesota has a #3 from Denver (2007 draft trade/ DT Marcus Thomas)
http://www.gbnreport.com/trades.htm
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Old 02-29-2008   #176
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

Sage is a great back up QB to have in our system. He understands what needs to be done and the guys in the huddle accept his leadership when needed. Do not mistake a great substitute for our team's starter. Yes, we still have some questions about Schaub's ability to stay healthy. Only because it was Matt's first year being the number 1 and getting the snot knocked out of him by the Titans twice. (Was it just me, or did y'all think the Titans game planned to take Schaub out both times last year?)

Matt is our #1 QB. Kubiak and Smith are not going to let a great back-up leave town unless they get a good deal for him. We need the insurance of having consistancy at QB when Matt gets knocked out of a game. As someone said before, our QB is not Peyton Manning or Tom Brady; therefore, we need someone who can step in and get the job done.
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Old 02-29-2008   #177
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

Quote:
Originally Posted by nero THE zero View Post
I know you're talking about Peterson but I wouldn't be opposed to Chester Taylor and a third for Sage.
I would do it for Chester Taylor strait up. Would take care of our starting RB situation, and you know what you get. The potential for bust is severly reduced.
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Old 02-29-2008   #178
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

I'm glad it fell through at that price. The old saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush comes to mind. It's not like our starter has proven to have the durability of a Payton Manning. We don't know yet if we have another Chris Chandelier on our hands, or if last year was a fluke.

Nope, in this league you need two capable QB's. Sage proved his value to the team last year. We also have Schaub who set the market value on starter potential QB's without a ton of starts under his belt. It stands to reason to me that if Schaub is worth 2 #2's, and you evualate his performance vs. Rosenfels last year, then at worst Rosenfels is worth 2 #3's, if not a 2nd and a 3rd. I didn't set the market on QB's, the Texans, Bills, and many other teams have set that market value over the years. One #3 would not be market value, and in the event that Schaub were to go down, we would be handing the reins of the team in the most important position to whom exactly?

I don't think you help your team by dealing from the most important position on the team when you have depth in that area. Weakening that position for a totally unknown quantity in a draft pick makes no sense to me. Just ask Falcons fans how that worked for them. Have we learned nothing from history?
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Old 02-29-2008   #179
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
Ok so let me get this straight. We are looking at the ENTIRE FRANCHISE history? We shouldn't maybe judge based on what the current regime has done with their picks? Say Spencer, Winston,Ryans and JJ? Since the guys who would make our picks are the ones that made those should we say that we have like an 3/4 (depending on JJ)?

I've already conceeded that its a gamble. But we're not going to get any better if one of our few claims to fame is "best backup QB".

mike
So this regime has spent second and third round picks on:

Demeco Ryans - Def Rookie of the Year
Eric Winston - Our best O-lineman and RT of the future
Charles Spencer - Would have been our answer at LT if not for an injury
Jacoby Jones - Flashes of serious potential at WR and PR

Yeah........I would hate for this regime to trade a back-up for a draft pick with their success/failure rate. We may as well trade ALL of our draft picks for Free Agents at this rate.
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Old 02-29-2008   #180
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Default Re: Sage for Vikes 3rd rumor

GBNs 65 to 108.

#65 Andre Woodson QB 6-5, 230 Kentucky
#66 DeJuan Tribble CB 5-9, 190 Boston College
#67 John Carlson TE 6-5, 255 Notre Dame
#68 Marcus Harrison DT 6-3, 315 Arkansas
#69 Jason Jones DE 6-5, 272 Eastern Michigan
#70 Terrell Thomas CB 6-0, 200 USC
#71 Erik Ainge QB 6-5, 220 Tennessee
#72 Adarius Bowman WR 6-4, 220 Oklahoma State
#73 Mike Hart RB 5-9, 200 Michigan
#74 Oneil Cousins OT 6-4, 305 UTEP
#75 *Kevin Smith RB 6-1, 212 Central Florida
#76 Jonathan Hefney DB 5-9, 185 Tennessee
#77 Lawrence Jackson DE 6-5, 270 USC
#78 *Letroy Guion DT 6-4, 295 Florida State
#79 *Martellus Bennett TE 6-7, 255 Texas A&M
#80 Jamar Adams DB 6-2, 210 Michigan
#81 John David Booty QB 6-3, 210 USC
#82 Matt Forte RB 6-0, 225 Tulane
#83 Trevor Laws DT 6-1, 295 Notre Dame
#84 Martin Rucker TE 6-5, 255 Missouri
#85 Red Bryant DT 6-5, 320 Texas A&M
#86 *Geno Hayes LB 6-1, 220 Florida State
#87 Harry Douglas WR 5-10,170 Louisville
#88 Dre Moore DT 6-4, 310 Maryland
#89 Heath Benedict OT 6-5, 320 Newberry
#90 *Jerod Mayo LB 6-1, 235 Tennessee
#91 Donnie Avery WR 5-10, 190 Houston
#92 Lavelle Hawkins WR 5-10, 180 California
#93 Terrence Wheatley CB 5-9, 175 Colorado (X)
#94 Cliff Avril DE 6-3, 250 Purdue
#95 Shawn Crable LB 6-3, 245 Michigan
#96 Owen Schmitt FB 6-2, 260 West Virginia
#97 *Jake Ikegwouna CB 6-0, 200 Wisconsin
#98 Simeon Castille DB 6-0, 190 Alabama
#99 Phillip Wheeler LB 6-1, 230 Georgia Tech
#100 Quentin Demps FS 6-0, 205 UTEP
#101 Tony Hills OT 6-5, 305 Texas (X)
#102 Andre Fluellen DT 6-2, 285 Florida State
#103 Thomas DeCoud DB 6-1, 200 California
#104 Allen Patrick RB 5-11, 195 Oklahoma
#105 Dustin Keller TE 6-3, 245 Purdue
#106 Eddie Royal WR 5-9, 185 Virginia Tech
#107 Trae Williams CB 5-10, 185 South Florida
#108 Bruce Davis DE 6-3, 240 UCLA

http://www.gbnreport.com/top100.html
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