What is Sage's value?--Sage Frustrated

[GP]

Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger

GP, I tried give you rep but must spread.

Well, you and probably one other poster has actually been brave enough to come out and agree/understand what I have been thinking and posting.

For this supposedly being an "opinion" board...I am laughing at how little tolerance the majority of posters have for things that go against them. HoustonFrog is a guy who relentlessly tracks me down and even gets personal with me (in his responses to my posts). And then others follow suit and pile onto me. Makes a guy feel like he's really welcomed around here!

We have two backup QBs trying to solidify a starting position. Period.

[GP]

Originally Posted by Hoth-Boy

Yup, Sage's 12 INTs were sure better then Schaub's 9...right?

We have two backup QBs trying to solidify a starting position.

One question: If Sage outplayed Schaub in the preseason, would you be behind him and support Sage as the starter in Game 1?

If Schaub outplayed Sage and won the gig...I'd be behind the starter.

[otisbean]

Originally Posted by Hoth-Boy

Yup, Sage's 12 INTs were sure better then Schaub's 9...right?

Additionally, he threw multiple balls that should have been picked off but the opposing DBs dropped. You can also argue that Schaub didn't get the benefit of AJs services which would have undoubtedly improved his stats. I like Sage and I think he is a good backup but I would trade him in a heartbeat for the right deal. Then I would go the Bucs and trade a low pick for one of the 37 QBs as my back up or try to draft Dixon in the late rounds. I think his knee injury is going to push him down in the draft quite a bit.

[Errant Hothy]

Originally Posted by GP

We have two backup QBs trying to solidify a starting position.

One question: If Sage outplayed Schaub in the preseason, would you be behind him and support Sage as the starter in Game 1?

If Schaub outplayed Sage and won the gig...I'd be behind the starter.

If they had equal time against the opposing 1st team Ds, and the coaches said that Sage was the better option..I would absolutly support him.

If the FO staff said that moving Sage for a draft pick was the best move for the team, would you support the move?

[otisbean]

Originally Posted by GP

And I also said last year "I don't think McNair is in this to really challenge for a title. I think he's a 'business owner' who watches the bottom line and desires to keep this franchise as profitable as possible. We're the LA Clippers of the NFL."

For that, I was roasted and flamed to no end: "How dare you accuse the guy who brought NFL back to Houston as someone who doesn't want to win?!"

My response was: Well, let's see how much of this HUGE cap space we'll actually use. Clock is ticking...

I'm not a troll, but I've been painted as one. I just have no ability to go along with the majority anymore. We're better than we were before Kubiak and Smith. But we have a looooooong way to go.

Elevating Schaub to the throne is not in the overall best interests of this team, especially as we look at our recent past history with this sort of thinking. It's just not. True competition is what helps a team get BETTER.

History has shown that you have to be careful with cap space. Lots of teams have spent big $$$ with little to no results - SF, Wash, ect...

I don't think using cap space is the determining factor for the owner being dedicated to winning. He let Kubes get rid of Carr and I believe that cost us some money. He let Casserly spend quite a bit during FA (of course most of it was spent unwisely). I think Mc Nair is one of the better owners.

As far as Schaub be anointed as starting QB I think he has definitely looked better then Sage. Comparing Stats isn't fair because the majority of Schaub's games came with out the services of AJ.

[maddogmrb]

Originally Posted by otisbean

Additionally, he threw multiple balls that should have been picked off but the opposing DBs dropped. You can also argue that Schaub didn't get the benefit of AJs services which would have undoubtedly improved his stats. I like Sage and I think he is a good backup but I would trade him in a heartbeat for the right deal. Then I would go the Bucs and trade a low pick for one of the 37 QBs as my back up or try to draft Dixon in the late rounds. I think his knee injury is going to push him down in the draft quite a bit.

So, if we had traded Sage last year and brought in Zabranski or whatever other no-name we had on the practice squad when Schaub went down, we would have finished 8-8 and been optomistic about this year.... right? WRONG!

[Errant Hothy]

Originally Posted by maddogmrb

So, if we had traded Sage last year and brought in Zabranski or whatever other no-name we had on the practice squad when Schaub went down, we would have finished 8-8 and been optomistic about this year.... right? WRONG!

If we had traded Sage last year, do you really think that Kubiak would have relied on a rookie to be his back-up? I quess we've already answered this question inyour post.

They would have signed another veteran to be the back-up, just like they can if they trade Sage this year.

[ObsiWan]

Originally Posted by maddogmrb

I think ObsiWan missed the point. I don't believe there is another team in the league that would give us 2-2nd round picks and change places in the 1st round for Schaub now, and I don't think anyone else would've done it when we made the trade ...... we were just desperate. Okay, name me one other #2 QB in the league right now that you would give up what we did for Schaub.

No argument there.
I'm convinced that the reason we made the deal for Schaub was Sage's hand injury. If Sage had been healthy during the last month of the 06 season, Kubiak would have benched Carr to see what he had in Rosenfels. And I would be willing to bet that Sage would have won the #1 QB job.

And regarding your last statement, no #2 QB in the league today is as good as Schaub. So none of them are worth what Schaub was worth.

Maaaybe Kurt Warner. But if you think Schaub is fragile....

Cleo Lemon is probably the next best back-up. And you see how quick Del Rio snapped him up when he became available.

Tell ya what, gimme your list of #2s that are as good as Schaub then we'll talk about what they're worth. Remember, for this to be an apples-to-apples comparison, this #2 has to be ready to step in and start. That's what we were looking for when we dealt for Schaub.

[ChampionTexan]

Originally Posted by gafftop

Do you think anybody would make the deal we made to get Schaub now??
Could we get (2) 2nds and move up in the first round if we traded Schaub now? Would you do this? I would in a heartbeat, but I know there is no one out there that would do this. Why did we??? I think we could have gotten him for a lot less. Would you trade Schaub for (2) 2nds and a better position in the 1st round??

First off, I don't know what we could get for Schaub, and I'm not here to say he's the next great (or even really, really good) QB, because I don't know that either. But, it's a little unfair to ask one year later what could we get for him, since given the fact that the Texans weren't a playoff team in '07, and it was Schaub's first year as a full-time starter, it's not surprising if his stock has dropped. The majority of QB's don't live up to the hype in their first year of starting, and while Schaub certainly hasn't lived up to our elevated hopes so far, I saw some flashes of potential over his 11 games that I didn't see over Carr's five years. I also saw a couple of things that concerned me, and will be anxiously watching next year to see how year two goes. Look at Mario after year one and now. As we are more than aware, there were a whole bunch of people saying about Mario last year what you appear to be saying about Schaub now. I also think that even at this point, if Atlanta had it to do over again, there's no way they'd make the same deal now.

As to whether we could have gotten him for alot less - well, I'm pretty sure they tried, and didn't just give the Falcons whatever their first offer consisted of, but this is a trade that if Schaub's successful (Which for lack of a better measuring stick, I'll define as being a Top 10 NFL QB) will be more than worth it at twice what they paid. If Schaub's not successful, trading a 5th round pick for him would have been overpaying.

As much as most of us don't like it, and as much as it reminds us of an extremely painful (and unsuccessful) similar situation, the reality is that you can't determine if this was a good trade for at least another year - probably two (but maybe we've at least learned it shouldn't take five).

[HoustonFrog]

Originally Posted by GP

Yes we do.

Of the two QBs we have right now, we don't have a definitive starter.

We have two backups who are on the verge of being a starter. Schaub was not a starting QB with years of starting experience when we traded for him. People are PRETENDING that we acquired a starter in Matt Schaub. We didn't.

We speculated that he could start. A lot of Falcons fans tried to tell us he wouldn't be mobile enough...and we sorta' laughed them off. I see a guy who played the first game and looked sharp getting away from center--crisp steps, good footwork--and then he just began to slow down and the pass rush was on him wayyyy to quickly over the next few games.

Seeing Sage come in and rescue a season that was lloking to be flushed down the drain...well, it was a relief. The whole offense seemed to pick it up a step; there was a confidence in the huddle and on the field. Granted, Sage knows the offense and the players a lot better.

If anything makes me laugh, it's the "games" we play--and the games coaches play--when the proverbial "We don't have a QB controversy" comments start rolling out. As soon as THOSE comments start rolling out, then you absolutely 100% know you have a competition going on. You don't hear the words "QB controversy" in Indy or New England...it's not even in the dictionary in those two places.

When you have to openly "deny" that there's a QB controversy...there IS one. Period.

Geesh, I'd think that Texans fans wouldn't care WHO started as long as it was the MAN who deserved to have the gig. After 5 years of David Carr, we kinda' need to let go of this pipe dream of being able to pencil in a starter and defend him to no end. You guys do realize that you're doing the same thing with Schaub that a lot of us (including ME) did with David?

Sitting around trashing people like me who just want SOMEONE to win the job and do it consistently, and therefore defending a backup QB like Schaub as if he's been a starter for years, is puzzling.

I am a Texans fan. Not a Sage fan. Not a Schaub fan. I think they shold battle it out. And I think there's a lot of truth to what the Titans' Haynesworth said when he said "I bet Sage would have liked to have seen some of that starting money!" We rolled the dice on Schaub, and I supported it when it happened, but I'm retreating on it...I don't think Schaub is the guy for the long term. I just don't. Out of the two backup QBs we have, I'd say they're pretty even in the race for the starting job right now.

8-8 is a lot better than 2-14. Kubiak and Smith are doing a great job. I'm glad we have Sage-Schaub to argue about...and not who our next HC shold be and why our GM is such a moron. Thank God THOSE days are gone.

GP, do you have selctive memory considering the made up facts you posted at the end of last season and all of the trash you talked that was disputed. Are you son of Hulk, brother of Sage?Seriously. I don't get where you are coming from. Its like you recharged your batteries and decided Sage needed help again.

Look at the bolded above. How did he save the season?He threw more ints in limited time. This kept teams in games. Teammates said Schaub was a leader and he didnt have AJ in starts. Yet he was Top 10 in 8 categories up until his injuries.

Sage is not a starter in the league. He isn't our starter or they wouldn't be entertaining trades. Sorry, you are wrong...again.

[Brando]

Also, the Vikings are still asking the Houston Texans about backup quarterback Sage Rosenfels. The Texans, though, won't consider a deal, unless the stakes include at least a second-round pick. With longstanding issues at quarterback — David Carr, a former No. 1 pick, was a major disappointment — the Texans are content with Rosenfels as a backup to Matt Schaub.

Rosenfels would be a solid backup in the event starter Tarvaris Jackson struggles at training camp or early in the season. Rosenfels was 4-1 as a starter last season when Schaub was hurt.

In addition, Cleo Lemon, Josh McCown and Billy Volek no longer are available.

"If there's something out there that we think can help our roster, whether it comes through trade or this free agency or if we wait until the draft to address it . . .," Spielman said, noting that the club has nine draft picks, including two in the third round. "Hopefully, we'll have the same success as we did last year."

twincity.com

[Specnatz]

Originally Posted by GP

Yes we do.

Of the two QBs we have right now, we don't have a definitive starter.

We have two backups who are on the verge of being a starter. Schaub was not a starting QB with years of starting experience when we traded for him. People are PRETENDING that we acquired a starter in Matt Schaub. We didn't.

We speculated that he could start. A lot of Falcons fans tried to tell us he wouldn't be mobile enough...and we sorta' laughed them off. I see a guy who played the first game and looked sharp getting away from center--crisp steps, good footwork--and then he just began to slow down and the pass rush was on him wayyyy to quickly over the next few games.

Seeing Sage come in and rescue a season that was lloking to be flushed down the drain...well, it was a relief. The whole offense seemed to pick it up a step; there was a confidence in the huddle and on the field. Granted, Sage knows the offense and the players a lot better.

If anything makes me laugh, it's the "games" we play--and the games coaches play--when the proverbial "We don't have a QB controversy" comments start rolling out. As soon as THOSE comments start rolling out, then you absolutely 100% know you have a competition going on. You don't hear the words "QB controversy" in Indy or New England...it's not even in the dictionary in those two places.

When you have to openly "deny" that there's a QB controversy...there IS one. Period.

Geesh, I'd think that Texans fans wouldn't care WHO started as long as it was the MAN who deserved to have the gig. After 5 years of David Carr, we kinda' need to let go of this pipe dream of being able to pencil in a starter and defend him to no end. You guys do realize that you're doing the same thing with Schaub that a lot of us (including ME) did with David?

Sitting around trashing people like me who just want SOMEONE to win the job and do it consistently, and therefore defending a backup QB like Schaub as if he's been a starter for years, is puzzling.

I am a Texans fan. Not a Sage fan. Not a Schaub fan. I think they shold battle it out. And I think there's a lot of truth to what the Titans' Haynesworth said when he said "I bet Sage would have liked to have seen some of that starting money!" We rolled the dice on Schaub, and I supported it when it happened, but I'm retreating on it...I don't think Schaub is the guy for the long term. I just don't. Out of the two backup QBs we have, I'd say they're pretty even in the race for the starting job right now.

8-8 is a lot better than 2-14. Kubiak and Smith are doing a great job. I'm glad we have Sage-Schaub to argue about...and not who our next HC shold be and why our GM is such a moron. Thank God THOSE days are gone.

From what I can tell no one is really trashing you they think you logic is flawed and they make point to suggest that, just like I am about to do.

When Coach Kubiak says Schuab is our starting QB, that means we have a starter and a backup period. There is no debate, there is no lets see which one wins, it is Schuab is the starting QB. As far as you saying that as soon as a Coach says there is no Qb controversy then there is one, is kinda silly. what is Kubiak suppossed to do ignore John McLame asking retarded questions he can use in his next music video. If the question is asked even if it is not relavent it has to be answered.

I am not sure who these a lot of Falcons fans are that you are referring to that said Matt was to slow and that he was not worth the trade, but if you had gone to their message board you would have seen a lot of fans saying the traded the wrong QB. Now saying Matt is not mobile enough is kinda hard to determine, because he is more mobile than Payton Manning about equal to Tom Brady and no where near as mobile as Bret Favre and Tony Romo.

On this board you are going to get people who think they know more than they do, you get some all they do is rant and others who actually no a great deal about each position. When you make points expect them to be picked apart worse than a dead carcas on the side of the road.

[steelbtexan]

I think Mr. McNair wants to win & make money ala New England.

Atl. has 2 2nd rd. picks, I'm sure we could trade Schaub back to them.

I wouldn't do this trade although I'm sure some on this board would.

I trust RS & Kubes judgement more than GP's, CND's & Maddogs

KUBES has been playing or coaching QB's professionally for 25 years?

[CloakNNNdagger]

Has anyone given thought to the possibility that the FO is trying to establish a possible offer value for if they wish to resign Sage for the long term, possibly as a starter, depending on how the upsoming season shakes out?

[TexansSeminole]

Originally Posted by GP

We have two backup QBs trying to solidify a starting position.

One question: If Sage outplayed Schaub in the preseason, would you be behind him and support Sage as the starter in Game 1?

If Schaub outplayed Sage and won the gig...I'd be behind the starter.

Are you still lobbying for Sage as the starter.

My god, give it a break. It's like Hulk75 trying to get us to beleive that Carr doesn't suck.

[Kaiser Toro]

Some say collegiate all-star games, combines, pro days and the draft bridge our want for more football. Not me I like to be front and center for this Theater of the Absurd. Anything can happen, anything can be said and everyone has an opinion.

Lastly, Sage is a back up QB. Dispute the facts, dispute the historicals, dispute the investment made, dispute what the market will bear for each QB, but understand that a healthy Schaub is our starter.

[Kaiser Toro]

Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger

Has anyone given thought to the possibility that the FO is trying to establish a possible offer value for if they wish to resign Sage for the long term, possibly as a starter, depending on how the upsoming season shakes out?

Sure that is a possibility, but much less than trying to get a second round pick to help the team.

[Brando]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro

Some say collegiate all-star games, combines, pro days and the draft bridge our want for more football. Not me I like to be front and center for this Theater of the Absurd. Anything can happen, anything can be said and everyone has an opinion.

Lastly, Sage is a back up QB. Dispute the facts, dispute the historicals, dispute the investment made, dispute what the market will bear for each QB, but understand that a healthy Schaub is our starter.

Yes he is. A good back up to have but Schaub is our starter. If Minnesota is trading for him to be a back up to Jackson that should close the case.

[Errant Hothy]

Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger

Has anyone given thought to the possibility that the FO is trying to establish a possible offer value for if they wish to resign Sage for the long term, possibly as a starter, depending on how the upsoming season shakes out?

Sure, but if Minnesota is going to offer a 3rd or better, then Sage's contract is below what his value might be (to a team like Minnesota). If I'm the Texans I don't even think about re-working his deal now...it would only lead to an increase in his cost against the cap. If Sage and his agent feel this way, he could be a camp hold-out (mad about either the money or missing a chance to truly compete for a starting gig).

[Nighthawk]

Originally Posted by GP

Yes we do.

Of the two QBs we have right now, we don't have a definitive starter.

We have two backups who are on the verge of being a starter. Schaub was not a starting QB with years of starting experience when we traded for him. People are PRETENDING that we acquired a starter in Matt Schaub. We didn't.

We speculated that he could start. A lot of Falcons fans tried to tell us he wouldn't be mobile enough...and we sorta' laughed them off. I see a guy who played the first game and looked sharp getting away from center--crisp steps, good footwork--and then he just began to slow down and the pass rush was on him wayyyy to quickly over the next few games.

Seeing Sage come in and rescue a season that was lloking to be flushed down the drain...well, it was a relief. The whole offense seemed to pick it up a step; there was a confidence in the huddle and on the field. Granted, Sage knows the offense and the players a lot better.

If anything makes me laugh, it's the "games" we play--and the games coaches play--when the proverbial "We don't have a QB controversy" comments start rolling out. As soon as THOSE comments start rolling out, then you absolutely 100% know you have a competition going on. You don't hear the words "QB controversy" in Indy or New England...it's not even in the dictionary in those two places.

When you have to openly "deny" that there's a QB controversy...there IS one. Period.

Geesh, I'd think that Texans fans wouldn't care WHO started as long as it was the MAN who deserved to have the gig. After 5 years of David Carr, we kinda' need to let go of this pipe dream of being able to pencil in a starter and defend him to no end. You guys do realize that you're doing the same thing with Schaub that a lot of us (including ME) did with David?

Sitting around trashing people like me who just want SOMEONE to win the job and do it consistently, and therefore defending a backup QB like Schaub as if he's been a starter for years, is puzzling.

I am a Texans fan. Not a Sage fan. Not a Schaub fan. I think they shold battle it out. And I think there's a lot of truth to what the Titans' Haynesworth said when he said "I bet Sage would have liked to have seen some of that starting money!" We rolled the dice on Schaub, and I supported it when it happened, but I'm retreating on it...I don't think Schaub is the guy for the long term. I just don't. Out of the two backup QBs we have, I'd say they're pretty even in the race for the starting job right now.

8-8 is a lot better than 2-14. Kubiak and Smith are doing a great job. I'm glad we have Sage-Schaub to argue about...and not who our next HC shold be and why our GM is such a moron. Thank God THOSE days are gone.

This is the best assessment of our situation I've read on the board. "Two backups" says it best, though it probably has to be said that the edge right now goes to Sage for being able to stay healthy.