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Old 03-11-2008   #81
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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Originally Posted by Porky View Post
I wouldn't take any of those above Sage myself.

More I think More i like the idea of Marques T. Guy is athletic and can make the bootleg rollouts Kubiak likes, has a nice arm, and has had about as much experience as Sage.

If we pushed it until draft day it is possible we could get either a second or multiple picks, heck maybe even a third and a player. Sage might want another crack at a starting job and will probably leave after this year anyway and we'll be in the same position at this time next year.Difference is at this point we'd be looking getting something for our loss and a chance to better another spot on the team.
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Old 03-11-2008   #82
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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lol i said carr was 'bad but looked like nfl backup'material.. herv said 'nearly adequate'..neither is 'ok'

how does sage 'fit the system to a tee' more than other possible qb's we could get? like i said, i believe the system is a good system that brings out the best in most qb's

all we're saying is look at the history of this staff instead of your fear theory of 'WHEN schaub goes down, the new backup WILL play crap'...

based on this staff's history, you can say:
- whoever the qb is, they'll play almost at their optimum level within the system, whatever that optimum is (carr, sage, schaub)
- our staff has shown an innate ability to hit on nearly all their draft picks.. which is why it isnt a 'shot in the dark' like with other staff's especially if we manage to land a 2nd
- our staff have shown a good ability to find serviceable street FA's.. and i believe gary will find a suitable backup qb if he has to

look you probably wont change your opinion and i understand why.. but you can see the benefits of a potential trade too
Decent points, but if they trade him, I hope they get more than a 5th round RB in exchange. If they got him plus a 3rd, I'd likely take it or 2 3rds. I would not do it for one 3rd myself or the RB alone.

Not to beat a dead horse, but sometimes something can have more value to you than it's intrisic worth on the open market. Maybe an older car that you fixed up isn't considered one of the classics that holds it value, and it's only worth $2000 out on the open market, but maybe because it's worth more to you, you would only sell it if offered $4000 and are kind of even hoping nobody meets that asking price. That's how I feel about Sage.
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Old 03-11-2008   #83
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

It's a dangerous thing falling in love with a backup QB. You think that you see something that everyone else has simply overlooked. In the vast majority of cases you're seeing an illusion. Every once in a while somebody has a Brett Favre sitting on the end of their depth chart waiting to be given a shot but it doesn't happen very often. Mostly you're looking at A.J. Feeley or Scott Mitchell or, god forbid Cody Carlson.

I'm not calling for the Texans to trade Sage. I'm not going to be upset if he stays (or goes for that matter). I'm just saying that I get the feeling he'll probably be moved before the draft. Maybe I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. I just think it's going to happen.
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Old 03-11-2008   #84
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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It's a dangerous thing falling in love with a backup QB. You think that you see something that everyone else has simply overlooked. In the vast majority of cases you're seeing an illusion. Every once in a while somebody has a Brett Favre sitting on the end of their depth chart waiting to be given a shot but it doesn't happen very often. Mostly you're looking at A.J. Feeley or Scott Mitchell or, god forbid Cody Carlson.

I'm not calling for the Texans to trade Sage. I'm not going to be upset if he stays (or goes for that matter). I'm just saying that I get the feeling he'll probably be moved before the draft. Maybe I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. I just think it's going to happen.

I don't think he is Brett Favre. I do however think he is one of the better backups in the league, at least with us. So, now your are trading a known quantity for an unknown quantity at the most important position on the field...and in which the starter has yet to prove he is durable. Does everyone forget the Texans record when Sage started last year? If the price is right, of course I would trade him. What has been stated in the media isn't enough for me though.
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Old 03-11-2008   #85
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

I agree wholeheartedly with everything Porky has been saying, most especially his point about a value for Sage. He is worth more than a 3rd round pick to us. He is someone who already knows the system and the players and can start a string of games while Schaub is out and give us a very decent probability of a few wins.

I don’t care what anybody says about Schaub, he has not yet proven he is a starter that can go the whole season.
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Old 03-11-2008   #86
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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Decent points, but if they trade him, I hope they get more than a 5th round RB in exchange. If they got him plus a 3rd, I'd likely take it or 2 3rds. I would not do it for one 3rd myself or the RB alone.

Not to beat a dead horse, but sometimes something can have more value to you than it's intrisic worth on the open market. Maybe an older car that you fixed up isn't considered one of the classics that holds it value, and it's only worth $2000 out on the open market, but maybe because it's worth more to you, you would only sell it if offered $4000 and are kind of even hoping nobody meets that asking price. That's how I feel about Sage.
Very good points Porkster.

Different teams have different needs... even if they have the same or similar needs it may be in a different capacity.

I think if anything does happen with Sage, it could be on Draft Day and could set up for a really interesting day(s).

At the same time though, if we keep him- some team may come calling during the season or next offseason needing his services more. Sage would be a FA after next season I believe. His price could go up (or go down).
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Old 03-11-2008   #87
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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Originally Posted by Maddict5 View Post
joey harrington too.. the falcons got some decent games out of him as we can attest to
Not any longer, Harrington re-upped with the Falcons today.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/Home_NFL.aspx

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Falcons re-signed Joey Harrington to an undisclosed contract, according to NFL Network's Adam Schefter.
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Old 03-11-2008   #88
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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I wouldn't take any of those above Sage myself.
But it's not just Sage, it would be Sage and a pick for a veteran QB.

The pick would have to be of the right value to make the deal work. A third would make me happy, but I can understand Rick Smith holding out for a 2nd.
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Old 03-11-2008   #89
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

Porky said it great. Rep your way. I don't think you can compare the Henson trade to this scenario at all. On a side note to all this, I was listening to Sirius NFL today and they made a statement that really jumped out at me.
According to them, HALF of the players drafted in the 1st round 6 years ago aren't even in the league anymore.That's amazing. I knew that the average NFL career was 3.5 years or so, but I guess I ASSumed that 1st and 2nd rounders would be sticking around longer and lower draft picks would have shorter careers on average.
I have no desire to trade a player who really stepped up and was a major factor in the Texans posting their best ever record. We don't have a proven
QB right now. I think Schaub could be that guy, but as of now, he's shown himself to be exactly what he is. A talented QB with little starting experience and a ton of potential. Add to that the fact that he's coming off of shoulder surgery, I wouldn't trade away Sage for less than what we got Schaub for. Next offseason, all bets are off.
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Old 03-11-2008   #90
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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Porky said it great. Rep your way. I don't think you can compare the Henson trade to this scenario at all. On a side note to all this, I was listening to Sirius NFL today and they made a statement that really jumped out at me.
According to them, HALF of the players drafted in the 1st round 6 years ago aren't even in the league anymore.That's amazing. I knew that the average NFL career was 3.5 years or so, but I guess I ASSumed that 1st and 2nd rounders would be sticking around longer and lower draft picks would have shorter careers on average.
I have no desire to trade a player who really stepped up and was a major factor in the Texans posting their best ever record. We don't have a proven
QB right now. I think Schaub could be that guy, but as of now, he's shown himself to be exactly what he is. A talented QB with little starting experience and a ton of potential. Add to that the fact that he's coming off of shoulder surgery, I wouldn't trade away Sage for less than what we got Schaub for. Next offseason, all bets are off.
That's why I think Two second rounders are in order.We got Schaub for two second rounders and he was unproven.Sage has proven that he can start in this league.
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Old 03-11-2008   #91
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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He is worth more than a 3rd round pick to us.
Really? He is worth more than a starting RT, a starting TE, a starting WR? Good guy to have but not sure I would make that definitive a statement.
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Old 03-11-2008   #92
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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Really? He is worth more than a starting RT, a starting TE, a starting WR? Good guy to have but not sure I would make that definitive a statement.
You're making assumptions that we could GET a starter at any of those positions in the 3rd round. And why do we need another starting WR or TE? He IS a very good backup QB who knows the system we run inside out AND has a good rapport with the team and, most importantly, timing and feel for the recievers. THAT makes him worth more to us than a 3rd rounder. I'm all for trading if the price is right, but Chester Taylor and a 3rd isn't the right price for me. We have needs on this team, but I don't see trading Sage at such a cheap price as a viable way of filling them.
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Old 03-11-2008   #93
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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Really? He is worth more than a starting RT, a starting TE, a starting WR? Good guy to have but not sure I would make that definitive a statement.
The problem with the draft is you don't know what you are getting until they put pads on and play against other NFL players. Reggie Bush is a prime example. I wouldn't take just a 3rd for Sage, it would have to be more.

Because if I trade Sage, I not only have to get value for the pick I traded him for, but I also have to get another QB that can step up to the plate. Frankly, he is worth more to us than he is to another team so I don't think I'd get what I wanted for him if the trade was up to me.

Which it isn't. LOL
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Old 03-11-2008   #94
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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You're making assumptions that we could GET a starter at any of those positions in the 3rd round. And why do we need another starting WR or TE? He IS a very good backup QB who knows the system we run inside out AND has a good rapport with the team and, most importantly, timing and feel for the recievers. THAT makes him worth more to us than a 3rd rounder. I'm all for trading if the price is right, but Chester Taylor and a 3rd isn't the right price for me. We have needs on this team, but I don't see trading Sage at such a cheap price as a viable way of filling them.
Well, last year at the 3 we got Jacoby Jones who everyone was ready to anoint as the next great WR to appear from a small "nowhere" school. Granted he's not a starter (yet) and he may never be if Davis and Walter continue to produce. At the 4 we got Fred Bennett who I believe ended the season as a starter and who will probably begin this coming season as one. Yes, we have had injuries. No, I don't see a lot of people upset that Fred is starting.

In 2006 we got Eric Winston and Charles Spencer back to back in the 3rd round and, but for a freak injury to Spencer we would have hit on a pair of starters in the 3rd. We also found Owen Daniels in the 4th who is a starter, or at the very least a heavy contributor.

In two drafts Kubiak and Kubiak+Smith have been 4 out of 5 in finding starters in the 3rd and 4th rounds of the draft. If Spencer comes back and can play again we will be looking at actually getting to see 4 "net" starters but I can't hold an injury against the guy's draft position.

If the Texans traded Sage for Minnesota's 3 I am pretty confident that we could get a starter there. You might have noticed that these guys we have drafting for us now are doing a pretty good job.
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Old 03-11-2008   #95
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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Well, last year at the 3 we got Jacoby Jones who everyone was ready to anoint as the next great WR to appear from a small "nowhere" school. Granted he's not a starter (yet) and he may never be if Davis and Walter continue to produce. At the 4 we got Fred Bennett who I believe ended the season as a starter and who will probably begin this coming season as one. Yes, we have had injuries. No, I don't see a lot of people upset that Fred is starting.

In 2006 we got Eric Winston and Charles Spencer back to back in the 3rd round and, but for a freak injury to Spencer we would have hit on a pair of starters in the 3rd. We also found Owen Daniels in the 4th who is a starter, or at the very least a heavy contributor.

In two drafts Kubiak and Kubiak+Smith have been 4 out of 5 in finding starters in the 3rd and 4th rounds of the draft. If Spencer comes back and can play again we will be looking at actually getting to see 4 "net" starters but I can't hold an injury against the guy's draft position.

If the Texans traded Sage for Minnesota's 3 I am pretty confident that we could get a starter there. You might have noticed that these guys we have drafting for us now are doing a pretty good job.
Yer, Herv, I'm quite aware of all of these players and their draft positions. I also realize that Winston and Spencer were both slated to go earlier in the draft and that we fortunate they were still on the board. I also realize that Reggie Bush was the greatest athelete on the planet and a can't miss-surefire Hall of Famer in 2006. The draft always has been and always will be a craps shoot. We NEED Sage as our backup QB until we have a replacement for him. I think we have a team that can win this year and make a push for a playoff spot. I think Schaub can lead us there IF he's recovered from his surgery and can stay healthy. He's proven neither as of yet. I KNOW Sage can step in and get the job done if, for some reason or another, Schaub can't start a game or several games, as happened last season. Are you comfortable with Shane Boyd being your back up QB? I'll stand pat this season.
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Old 03-11-2008   #96
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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You're making assumptions that we could GET a starter at any of those positions in the 3rd round.
No, I am looking at Kubiak and Smith's track record. But for an injury to Spencer, it is entirely likely 4 of 5 3rd and 4th round picks under their regime would have been starters last year.

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And why do we need another starting WR or TE?
Helloooooo--point wasn't we need people at those positions--those were examples of getting starters in those rounds you so casually dismiss.

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The problem with the draft is you don't know what you are getting until they put pads on and play against other NFL players. Reggie Bush is a prime example.
Yeah, and the problem with overvaluing backup QBs is they are sitting on the sideline with a clipboard.

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We NEED Sage as our backup QB until we have a replacement for him.
That is as easy as a phone call away. Take the draft pick and then get on the horn to Leftwich, Culpepper or Tuiosopopo (or however the heck you spell his name). Upgrade your team with the draft pick while at most slightly downgrading your backup QB.
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Old 03-11-2008   #97
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

One thing I tried to go into earlier in this thread was that if Schaub just explodes while walking out onto the field next year and literally there isn't a scrap of him big enough to merit burying then this team is not going to go into 2009 with Sage Rosenfels as the starter. They're going to go find someone they want as their starter be it through free agency, a trade, or more than likely the draft.

Kubiak had a chance to go with Sage as the man. He passed and he did so at a pretty high cost. Nobody will convince me that Kubiak doesn't know exactly what he has in Sage Rosenfels and that he's going to just say "Well, it's pretty bad about Matt exploding and all <thumps podium and looks at feet> but we got Sage and he's the starter now." when camp starts in 2009. It's not going to happen.

The point is that everyone says "we NEED Sage.... just in case" but in the worst version of the worst case scenario here Sage is going to be a placeholder until they can bring in their next "franchise QB". He's not going to be the replacement for Schaub. What's more is that this next hypothetical franchise QB isn't going to have a lengthy multi-year spin up time before he's ready. He won't be David Carr getting 5 years to learn the position. In the rest of the NFL, in the real world nobody does that and now neither do we. We're not going to "need" Sage until the rookie (most likely) is "ready". They're going to do a Jay Cutler on him and he'll be playing by the end of his first season. Sage will be back on the bench holding the clipboard and waiting for free agency to strike again. Then he'll sign with somebody else so he can start which he has said he wants to do and we'll get nothing for him. That's nothing as in zip, nada, zero.

And we'll be looking through that pile of scraps for our newest insurance policy that Kubiak can coach up.

The people who believe that Sage will somehow beat out Schaub for the job or take us to the playoffs if Schaub goes down have already shown me that they can't see the difference between Sage's starts and Matt's starts.

I firmly believe that David Carr's time here in Houston has done something to Texans fans ability to accurately and impartialy judge what they see.
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Old 03-11-2008   #98
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post

I firmly believe that David Carr's time here in Houston has done something to Texans fans ability to accurately and impartialy judge what they see.

What it did to me is make me appreciate the importance of solid QB play. Therefore, I don't want to add risk to the position even for a 3rd round pick. In my opinion, Jacoby Jones and Winston don't look to good on this team if we have bad QB play. So, unless there is an answer at backup QB, I don't want to trade a guy who is proven, the team believes in, and is signed cheap for two more years.

Last edited by infantrycak; 03-11-2008 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 03-11-2008   #99
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

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I don't think he is Brett Favre. I do however think he is one of the better backups in the league, at least with us. So, now your are trading a known quantity for an unknown quantity at the most important position on the field...and in which the starter has yet to prove he is durable. Does everyone forget the Texans record when Sage started last year? If the price is right, of course I would trade him. What has been stated in the media isn't enough for me though.
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Old 03-11-2008   #100
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Default Re: Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............

Do we still have him under contract for 2 more years?
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