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Old 02-13-2008   #81
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

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Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post
Boy, its sure ironic how posters blamed the OL for sacks during Carr's time here but now do the polar opposite and blame all the sacks on Schaub.

Which is it? I just think its sad that one guy gets 5 years of failed promise and parades of excuses while the other guy gets blamed for shortcomings even in his first year as a starter.

Some people just think that once you draft an OT in teh 1st Round, that your line just magically transforms into pro bowl caliber. It's not that simple. It takes drafting guys in the later rounds like Pitts, Winston, Spencer, and Weary and making those guys into something. I don't think Gibbs is lobbying for the 1st Round pick to be used on OT. Go look at the OL around the league. It's painfully obvious you don't have to be some 5 star 1st Round pick to succeed and help your team compete. You just need good coaching and a good scheme....which I believe we have in Gibbs in regards to OL.
Yeah like Joe Thomas did last year for Cleveland? Half a sack his rookie year. Suddenly Jamal Lewis looks like old Jamal Lewis and you've got a QB controversy between what to do with Quinn after Anderson had a great year.Not saying he necessarily did it single-handed but I'm more then sure having that left side shut down helped IMMENSELY. Keep in mind that's the same division as Baltimore's D and Pitt's too. 4 times a year. Half a sack.

It's been posted before SH. Of the playoffs teams this year most went 1st and 2nd round. Do you have to go there to compete? nope. But it's no coincidence those teams are in the playoffs.

Ole Miss. Totally agree Man AP would've looked great in a Texan's Uni. Trading down is one thing but IMO to move up you got to be in several situations.

1. Need Franchise QB - Most important position and most often hard to find.
2. Targeting a player who won't cost you more then it's worth to move a spot or two to secure.
3. Multiple playoff berths and target one guy you feel will get you over the hump and into the SB. So it's worth any ammo to move up.

We already did part one. We got our guy at QB. Otherwise this franchise hasn't made the playoffs and long term it's possible the AP pick would've hurt more then helped.
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Old 02-13-2008   #82
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

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Originally Posted by Dallas_Texan View Post
Why is everyone still trying to make predictions on the draft? Until FA is over, you may as well be guessing on the 2012 Draft. If we sign a LT, or CB, or RB then everyone's theories are shot. Be patient and have faith in the FO. There will be at LEAST one surprise this offseason, I'm confident in that. Then we can have fun speculating on what needs we'll need to fill. You never know...we may get a RB, AND a CB in FA, and then it's fairly obvious we go for BPA in the 1st as far as LT or OLB.
Here is why:
IMO there is no LT in FA that we can sign to be our starter over Salaam.
There is no significant upgrade at RB that will come in as our starter that will be a reasonable purchase.

There are two very good to excellent CBs now that Asomugha has been franchised; Asante Samuel who will probably ask for $60-80 million AKA Nate Clements deal; and then Trufant who will be more affordable and a good target. Then some good CBs left. I would target Trufant but so will others and we may have to go CB in draft. Having said this;

1. At #18 no LT is projected to be available. Maybe Baker but maybe not. I do not think any tackle we select at #18 will beat out Salaam initially and will be the back up. If that is true why spend a high pick when a lower round LT can back up and get the attention of Gibbs and line coach? I would rather a third round LT sit and work his way in than a #18 LT sit and work in.

2. RB is needed and two possible franchise type backs may be @ #18, Mendenhall and Stewart (my choice). Some say lower rou8nd can bring a starter but a franchise type back?

3. Cb if not bought in FA imo instantaneously becomes the #1 pick. Fortunately, we should be able to land a very good CB in first round. Folks, regardless of our preferences, we should sign two, maybe three starters in draft and maybe one in FA. That is a pump!.
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Old 02-13-2008   #83
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

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Yeah like Joe Thomas did last year for Cleveland? Half a sack his rookie year. Suddenly Jamal Lewis looks like old Jamal Lewis and you've got a QB controversy between what to do with Quinn after Anderson had a great year.Not saying he necessarily did it single-handed but I'm more then sure having that left side shut down helped IMMENSELY. Keep in mind that's the same division as Baltimore's D and Pitt's too. 4 times a year. Half a sack.
That's one side of the spectrum.

On the other side though, you can look a D'Brick who went around the same spot one year earlier...

It's the tale of two tackles...
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Old 02-13-2008   #84
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

It's ridiculous to think that you have to take a certain position in a certain round to have a certain amount of success...

Great LT's don't win games by themselves anymore than great RB's or CB's do...
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Old 02-13-2008   #85
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

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It's ridiculous to think that you have to take a certain position in a certain round to have a certain amount of success...

Great LT's don't win games by themselves anymore than great RB's or CB's do...
It is good to know that we can sign a LT, RB and CB in rounds 1,3 and 4 that could be starters this next season. That is without a trade down or free agency.
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Old 02-13-2008   #86
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

Well sometimes I go back to look at the line that our old Oilers used to have. I could swear they were all 1st and 2nd round players. I know that Bruce Matthews and Mike Munchak were 1st rounders, and I'm pretty sure that Steinkhuler was at least a 2nd. I know many of them were high picks though.

That success became 7 straight years of playoffs and from what I can remember, Warren Moon had a very good career.
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Old 02-13-2008   #87
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

There are few positions on the team that if the Texans went first round, I'd be ticked. QB, TE, WR, G - I'd be scratching my head if the Texans went first round with one of those. But LT? CB? S? RB? DE? DT? LB? I think an arguement could be made for any of those.

Part of me thinks that the Texans might be willing to give their RBs one more season. That they might go as high as third round to pull in a running back, but that it isn't the number one priority.

The same goes for tackle. Is it needed? Absolutely. Is it needed today? The Texans will look at Salaam's productivity and lack of injuries and say they can operate one more season. Take a risk on Spencer and Frye and see what happens.

Defensive Secondary, though? Totally different. Reducing that turn-over ratio is the number one priority. I think the Texans believe that with a year under his belt, Schaub will work out his interception-itis. So the other way to fix this is to cement the defensive backs. That's why I think it's best CB available with the first pick.
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Old 02-13-2008   #88
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

I think it's just BPA, as long as it's not a position on your list there (QB, TE, WR, G).

I'm assuming that we're assuming Ryans can move to the outside, and that's why MLB isn't a non-potential pick as well.
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Old 02-13-2008   #89
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

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Originally Posted by El Tejano View Post
Well sometimes I go back to look at the line that our old Oilers used to have. I could swear they were all 1st and 2nd round players. I know that Bruce Matthews and Mike Munchak were 1st rounders, and I'm pretty sure that Steinkhuler was at least a 2nd. I know many of them were high picks though.
With Mike Holovak pretty much running the draft from 1981-1993, the Oilers selected 10 offensive linemen on the 1st day:

Mike Munchak - G - 1st round (#8 overall) - 1982
Bruce Matthews - G - 1st round (#9 overall) - 1983
Harvey Salem - T - 2nd round (#30 overall) - 1983
Dean Steinkuhler - T - 1st round (#2 overall) - 1984
Don Maggs - T - 2nd round (#29 overall) - 1984 (USFL supplemental)
Mike Kelley - C - 3rd Round (#82 overall) - 1985
David Williams - T - 1st round (#23 overall) - 1989
John Flannery - C - 2nd Round (#44 overall) - 1991
Kevin Donnalley - G - 3rd round (#79 overall) - 1991
Brad Hopkins - T - 1st round (#13 overall) - 1993

Holovak believed in building a team from the inside out. He didn't miss on many, either.
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Old 02-13-2008   #90
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
With Mike Holovak pretty much running the draft from 1981-1993, the Oilers selected 10 offensive linemen on the 1st day:

Mike Munchak - G - 1st round (#8 overall) - 1982
Bruce Matthews - G - 1st round (#9 overall) - 1983
Harvey Salem - T - 2nd round (#30 overall) - 1983
Dean Steinkuhler - T - 1st round (#2 overall) - 1984
Don Maggs - T - 2nd round (#29 overall) - 1984 (USFL supplemental)
Mike Kelley - C - 3rd Round (#82 overall) - 1985
David Williams - T - 1st round (#23 overall) - 1989
John Flannery - C - 2nd Round (#44 overall) - 1991
Kevin Donnalley - G - 3rd round (#79 overall) - 1991
Brad Hopkins - T - 1st round (#13 overall) - 1993

Holovak believed in building a team from the inside out. He didn't miss on many, either.
In 6 years the Texans have drafted 5 Offensive Lineman on the first day. The exact same ratio as Holovak's numbers with the Texans. The Texans have yet to spend a 1st Round pick on an OL but they have spent valuable picks on guys and last year 3 were starters while one was on IR. Not that bad. We just havent hit any home runs at OL in the later rounds. We can all thank Casserley for that.


On top of that we have spent 6 picks on the DL during our 6 first draft days. I call that building from the inside out, but Holovak was far superior to Casserley and that hurt us. Charles Hill anyone?
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Old 02-13-2008   #91
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

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In 6 years the Texans have drafted 5 Offensive Lineman on the first day. The exact same ratio as Holovak's numbers...
Right. And the Texans have been snake bit with the Spencer injury. What I'm really addressing is the current notion that the offensive line can be addressed exclusively in the later rounds and coached up. That hasn't been proven, yet many believe it to be true.
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Old 02-13-2008   #92
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

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Right. And the Texans have been snake bit with the Spencer injury. What I'm really addressing is the current notion that the offensive line can be addressed exclusively in the later rounds and coached up. That hasn't been proven, yet many believe it to be true.
Agreed. You gotta take shots early on and sometimes even in the 1st Round to be successful. You can't exclusively use 2nd day picks to build a line, but I don't think the Texans are guilty of that even though they havent spent a 1st Rounder yet. Due to lots of bad trades, we have given up too many picks and just havent made the most of the draft picks we have used on OL. That looks to be turning around under Smith.
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Old 02-13-2008   #93
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
With Mike Holovak pretty much running the draft from 1981-1993, the Oilers selected 10 offensive linemen on the 1st day:

Mike Munchak - G - 1st round (#8 overall) - 1982
Bruce Matthews - G - 1st round (#9 overall) - 1983
Harvey Salem - T - 2nd round (#30 overall) - 1983
Dean Steinkuhler - T - 1st round (#2 overall) - 1984
Don Maggs - T - 2nd round (#29 overall) - 1984 (USFL supplemental)
Mike Kelley - C - 3rd Round (#82 overall) - 1985
David Williams - T - 1st round (#23 overall) - 1989
John Flannery - C - 2nd Round (#44 overall) - 1991
Kevin Donnalley - G - 3rd round (#79 overall) - 1991
Brad Hopkins - T - 1st round (#13 overall) - 1993

Holovak believed in building a team from the inside out. He didn't miss on many, either.
That list pretty much brings a tear to my eye.. The only name that I don't recall doing anything is Mike Kelley.

Two HOF'ers. One who's career should have wound up in the HOF but injuries got the better of him. Hopkins was great. Maggs, Williams, Flannery and Donnalley had good careers (not world beaters - but good).

Also, just a couple of years after Hopkins was drafted, the Oilers also picked up John Runyan who stuck around the league for 12 or 13 years. Although he was a later round pick.
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Old 02-13-2008   #94
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
With Mike Holovak pretty much running the draft from 1981-1993, the Oilers selected 10 offensive linemen on the 1st day:

Mike Munchak - G - 1st round (#8 overall) - 1982
Bruce Matthews - G - 1st round (#9 overall) - 1983
Harvey Salem - T - 2nd round (#30 overall) - 1983
Dean Steinkuhler - T - 1st round (#2 overall) - 1984
Don Maggs - T - 2nd round (#29 overall) - 1984 (USFL supplemental)
Mike Kelley - C - 3rd Round (#82 overall) - 1985
David Williams - T - 1st round (#23 overall) - 1989
John Flannery - C - 2nd Round (#44 overall) - 1991
Kevin Donnalley - G - 3rd round (#79 overall) - 1991
Brad Hopkins - T - 1st round (#13 overall) - 1993

Holovak believed in building a team from the inside out. He didn't miss on many, either.

How many Super Bowls did those Oilers teams win?
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Old 02-13-2008   #95
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

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How many Super Bowls did those Oilers teams win?
better yet , how many have we won ?
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Old 02-13-2008   #96
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

There is a definite difference between those Oilers picks and the Texans picks. Most of the Oilers picks I saw were first and second rounders. The Texans are all second and third-rounders. I have no qualm with picking linemen up later. But IMO, it's worth the gamble to put first-round stock in your left tackle. It's the cornerstone of the whole line. And that's where the Texans and I differ. Obviously, they don't think that cornerstone needs to be set with a first-rounder, or they think they can push it off yet another year.
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Old 02-13-2008   #97
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

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Obviously, they don't think that cornerstone needs to be set with a first-rounder, or they think they can push it off yet another year.
Is it really that obvious? Other than Travis Johnson, who would you give back and for whom? Carr may not have worked out but neither have Williams and McKinnie. Want to turn back AJ or Dunta, Mario or Okoye? It is easy to say spend a 1st in a vacuum but you are always giving up another possible selection. I'll cheer for a LT who is BPA in the 1st, but not for forcing one and passing up better talent.
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Old 02-14-2008   #98
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

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It's ridiculous to think that you have to take a certain position in a certain round to have a certain amount of success...

Great LT's don't win games by themselves anymore than great RB's or CB's do...

well that is preciecly the point...the histroy suggests that for every day two guy or TE guy who makes the jump to a starter quality OLT or LG there are litterally hundreds who don't. And for every round you let them slip by, there is a bust factor by a FACTOR of ten added on to the guy. Look it up. You take a guy late you except the risk that the guy in all probality will not make it out of camp. If he makes the PS you did prety good.

But what we found out in the super bowl....they can darn sure lose a few for you. It wasn't the Patties Cb nor the RB...the left tackle and the left gaurd couldn't block the speed of the Giants DL. The olt is not going to fall into their laps. They gotta go get him. And that means one of these drafts they are going to have to do something that's going to sting....take a canidate early. Other wise they are doing to MS the very same damn thing they did to HWSNBN. And what I'm posting...it's just a matter of time before Salaam gets hurt. That's when the team will pay the price for being short sighted....for the second time. Enjoy it.
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Old 02-14-2008   #99
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

does rashad butler have any potential at LT- i thought he might have a shot now that his illness was being treated.. judging by kubiaks comments, im thinking not
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Old 02-14-2008   #100
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Default Re: Truth & Rumors: Texans' draft plans include tackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
But what we found out in the super bowl....they can darn sure lose a few for you. It wasn't the Patties Cb nor the RB...the left tackle and the left gaurd couldn't block the speed of the Giants DL.
You keep picking horrible examples to make your point. Matt Light is wearing 3 SB rings he won as a starter and came pretty darn close to getting a 4th.

Seriously how far do you take your point?--if 6 OT's go off the board before #18, but the #1 CB and #2 RB both of whom grade out far higher are still there, do you really insist on picking the 7th OT?
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