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Old 01-14-2008   #21
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

This possibility of Pitts moving to LT really changes the offseason. If they decide to do this we'll have Pitts and Salaam as our LT's with us probably looking at another LT in lower rounds to groom. Winston has locked down the RT spot so that leaves all 3 interior spots. There seems to be some pretty decent Guards in free agency this offseason, so I wonder if they would look for immediate impact there? I'm just not so sure we overpay for an OL though.
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Old 01-14-2008   #22
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
I think this will be a pivotal year for him as well. Pitts seemed to play better at Tackle than he has a Guard. I could see him improving on the edge but when I watch him play at Guard he seems more unsure and seems to have lapses. Strangely, things happen faster at the Guard spot when it comes to hand fighting and Pitts strength is not his hands...it's his lower body. He has great feet, but Kubiak's Guards need great feet in a zone system and having great Guards may be more important to a ZBS than having great Tackles....Pitts has just has never taken that next step (playing at a high level consistently). I think next season will be an important one for Chester as well.
What do you think it would do for Pitts frame of mind if none other than Alex Gibbs comes in and recommends him as LT? I think it might motivate the young man, and possibly put a little "I told you so..." in his game.
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Old 01-14-2008   #23
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

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What do you think it would do for Pitts frame of mind if none other than Alex Gibbs comes in and recommends him as LT? I think it might motivate the young man, and possibly put a little "I told you so..." in his game.
Then we'd have one of those on both sides of the our lines......
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Old 01-14-2008   #24
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

Physically can he be what the (presumably) Denver Broncos-like Texans are going to be looking for there? The Broncos don't appear to have a tackle on their team over 305 pounds (very rudimentary search on my part, I probably missed somebody) and Chester is listed as 320. Does he have the mobility to do this? Can he lose the weight (if need be) or do it as he is?

I don't know.
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Old 01-14-2008   #25
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

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One in the same?

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Can someone please elaborate on Techno Viking......I guess I am out of touch.
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Old 01-14-2008   #26
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

Okay, now I really don't get it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1nzEFMjkI4
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Old 01-14-2008   #27
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
Physically can he be what the (presumably) Denver Broncos-like Texans are going to be looking for there? The Broncos don't appear to have a tackle on their team over 305 pounds (very rudimentary search on my part, I probably missed somebody) and Chester is listed as 320. Does he have the mobility to do this? Can he lose the weight (if need be) or do it as he is?

I don't know.

When Gibbs first took over the Broncos around '84, he had a roster of relative midget OL somewhere in the 260 to 280 range. He had to develop some approach to counter the 300+ DLs. He needed that miracle neutralizer...........there was born the "cut block." And what a great neutralizer he discovered. Later, I'm sure he had the chance to go after larger OL. However, success is hard to argue with, and it seems he stuck to his new found "stealth weapon." The Broncs, I believe last year had one or two OL around 305, but most were under 300.

What's interesting to note is during his success at Atlanta, the fact that they still carried OL over 300 (I believe, a couple in the 320 range) didn't hold his game back at all.

The DLs have also gotten bigger. I don't believe for a minute that Pitts at 320 would be ruled out of a job.......furthermore, Herveyol, like yourself, I still wonder why Pitts was not given the years to develop into what could be much more than a "serviceable" LT. I believe that given the "Carr" treatment, he would not disappoint.
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Old 01-14-2008   #28
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

I think that Butler is going to be the wild card at the T spot this offseason. The kid has all the talent and ability he needs to be succesful, and if his health is on order (and that should lead to his weight being in order) I think he might have a legit spot to sneak in to the starting line-up (if we do not draft a LT on Day 1).

Couple that with the arrival of Gibbs and I could see a "The U" reunion at the T spots for the Texans.
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Old 01-14-2008   #29
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
Physically can he be what the (presumably) Denver Broncos-like Texans are going to be looking for there? The Broncos don't appear to have a tackle on their team over 305 pounds (very rudimentary search on my part, I probably missed somebody) and Chester is listed as 320. Does he have the mobility to do this? Can he lose the weight (if need be) or do it as he is?

I don't know.
Every time I see or hear the description of a typical Broncos lineman, I immediately think of George Foster.
Foster is almost the exact opposite of what is typical of Denver's linemen, yet he played both tackle spots for several years.

Foster was a first round draft pick (#20 I think) in 2003.
I believe he weighed in around 325 when he played for the Broncos.
He was traded along with Tatum Bell and a draft pick for Dre Bly, proving again that Shanny loves cornerbacks...

I know the Broncos have a typical lineman type, but I guess there really are exceptions to every rule...
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Old 01-14-2008   #30
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

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I know the Broncos have a typical lineman type, but I guess there really are exceptions to every rule...
I'm thinking that the fact that most of Gibbs' line in Denver were smaller more because of the level of mobility that is required of them in the ZBS and less because he just likes small dudes on the o-line.

I mean, I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that if he could find a bunch of highly mobile, angry, 320-lb'ers that he'd take the first five he could get his hands on.

In short, mobility and being cranky is more important than mass in the Gibbs ZBS. Or am I wrong here?
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Old 01-14-2008   #31
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

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I'm thinking that the fact that most of Gibbs' line in Denver were smaller more because of the level of mobility that is required of them in the ZBS and less because he just likes small dudes on the o-line.

I mean, I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that if he could find a bunch of highly mobile, angry, 320-lb'ers that he'd take the first five he could get his hands on.

In short, mobility and being cranky is more important than mass in the Gibbs ZBS. Or am I wrong here?
I think your thinking is pretty much in line with what Gibbs wants. Like you say, occasionally, you find a real big hoss who can fit the system.
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Old 01-14-2008   #32
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

Chester has two years left on his contract and on the heavy side for salary, lighter on remaining signing bonus. If I recall correctly when he re-signed in 2005 he was going back to G for 2006 and appears to have been compensated as such for the contract. I do not see us renegotiating his contract nor would I want a hold out situation next year, or in 2009, should he be moved to LT and his representation make a stink.

With our most glaring need, in my opinion, at Center I would be far more comfortable with stable Guards (Weary is a question mark) next year than to have possibly four different players playing new positions (Pitts LT, new RG new C, Weary does not make it back) as opposed to the previous year.

I would like to go with a C/LT through FA or Draft and keep Winston and Pitts where they are, however, the Carr effect has shown that we may have more than meets the eye on the line. Only our coaches really know the value of the big guys and what they can bring to the table at this moment.
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Old 01-14-2008   #33
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
When Gibbs first took over the Broncos around '84, he had a roster of relative midget OL somewhere in the 260 to 280 range. He had to develop some approach to counter the 300+ DLs. He needed that miracle neutralizer...........there was born the "cut block." And what a great neutralizer he discovered. Later, I'm sure he had the chance to go after larger OL. However, success is hard to argue with, and it seems he stuck to his new found "stealth weapon." The Broncs, I believe last year had one or two OL around 305, but most were under 300.

What's interesting to note is during his success at Atlanta, the fact that they still carried OL over 300 (I believe, a couple in the 320 range) didn't hold his game back at all.

The DLs have also gotten bigger. I don't believe for a minute that Pitts at 320 would be ruled out of a job.......furthermore, Herveyol, like yourself, I still wonder why Pitts was not given the years to develop into what could be much more than a "serviceable" LT. I believe that given the "Carr" treatment, he would not disappoint.
Guys are getting bigger and faster nowadays. I think we can probably add about 10% of body mass, so everything pretty much works out the same.

Many teams now mix in the ZBS besides us, the Broncos, the Falcons, and the Packers. Look at the Raiders, the Colts, the Bucs, the Pats, etc.
And the O-linemen range between 295-315. Plus some big guys in the 320+ range.

I think the more important thing is whether they can move sideways some. The whole idea is to create a moving wall so that the defenders find it harder to find a hole to shoot through. At other times, they may find themselves shooting through vacuum where they thought the hole is.
(When it's done right, that's the thing.)

The cut block, I think, was born out of necessity.
Most or part of the O-line is moving one way. You're the last one in that continuum. A defender tries to get around you to chase the play from behind. (That guy can be bigger or faster than you.) Best thing to seal the backside is to throw yourself around his knees. All you need is maybe another 1/2 sec for the RB to find the hole.

Again, those are just my observations. And I'm learning the game continuously, as I truly enjoy it. (C&D and Herv, I really don't mean anything besides discussing football.)
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Old 01-14-2008   #34
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post

With our most glaring need, in my opinion, at Center I would be far more comfortable with stable Guards (Weary is a question mark) next year than to have possibly four different players playing new positions (Pitts LT, new RG new C, Weary does not make it back) as opposed to the previous year.
Good points, all.
I hadn't really stopped to think about the shakeup that is already possible along the line, and the fact that swapping players at other positions borders on complete overhaul, which isn't needed at all.
If I were to have one wish granted on our OL, I think I would ask for a dominant, mean and nasty center. I want a center who has such a mean/nasty side that he is a star with the general/casual fanbase.
If your starting center is a star on your team, there's a good chance that things are going well on your line...
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Old 01-14-2008   #35
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

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If I were to have one wish granted on our OL, I think I would ask for a dominant, mean and nasty center. I want a center who has such a mean/nasty side that he is a star with the general/casual fanbase.
I agree about that "mean and nasty" part. I remember the Saints game where someone got after Aaron Brooks and Kyle Turley ripped the dude's lid off and threw it. No one was going to mess with his QB (even if it was Aaron Brooks)!

Okay, so maybe "mean and nasty" with a touch of control to keep the 15 yard penalties down, but I think you can see where I'm going here.
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Old 01-15-2008   #36
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
With our most glaring need, in my opinion, at Center I would be far more comfortable with stable Guards (Weary is a question mark) next year than to have possibly four different players playing new positions (Pitts LT, new RG new C, Weary does not make it back) as opposed to the previous year.

I would like to go with a C/LT through FA or Draft and keep Winston and Pitts where they are, however, the Carr effect has shown that we may have more than meets the eye on the line. Only our coaches really know the value of the big guys and what they can bring to the table at this moment.
My guess, is they are going to take fringe players like Greg Eslinger and Chukky Okobi, and make McKinney and Hogdon compete with em. I expect more fringe player signings for the offensive line this coming offseason.
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Old 01-15-2008   #37
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

i agree with hothboy.. i think rashad is much more of a wildcard at LT than chester- if we use the ZB properly next yr (which we will) i think it'll suit chester more and they wont even consider moving him
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Old 01-15-2008   #38
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

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I think Gibbs is here mainly to tutor Benton, the line coach. I don't see Gibbs involved in any long term personnel decisions, since he'll probably go back into retirement in a couple of years.
I think they welcome Gibbs' personnel involvement for however long they have him. Part of what makes Gibbs special is his ability to identify guys in late rounds that he can quickly make good players out of- both at RB and OL. I think they promised him a lot of say in those areas and were ecstatic to do so.

His personnel ability is similar to Parcells in this respect, I think: Neither are particularly good GMs or talent assessers. However, they both have an ability to identify players specifically that they can effectively coach into good players. If Gibbs wasn't coaching, I wouldn't want him involved in personnel decisions. With him coaching, I'd give him almost anything he wants.
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Old 01-15-2008   #39
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

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i agree with hothboy.. i think rashad is much more of a wildcard at LT than chester- if we use the ZB properly next yr (which we will) i think it'll suit chester more and they wont even consider moving him
Eslinger, Butler, Spencer, Frye... my guess is we hit a homerun with at least one of these wildcards and one or two others become solid players as well. It's going to be very exciting watching the oline morph into something very different the next two years.
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Old 01-15-2008   #40
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Default Re: Early Offseason Ramblings:

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Chester has two years left on his contract and on the heavy side for salary, lighter on remaining signing bonus. If I recall correctly when he re-signed in 2005 he was going back to G for 2006 and appears to have been compensated as such for the contract. I do not see us renegotiating his contract nor would I want a hold out situation next year, or in 2009, should he be moved to LT and his representation make a stink.

With our most glaring need, in my opinion, at Center I would be far more comfortable with stable Guards (Weary is a question mark) next year than to have possibly four different players playing new positions (Pitts LT, new RG new C, Weary does not make it back) as opposed to the previous year.

I would like to go with a C/LT through FA or Draft and keep Winston and Pitts where they are, however, the Carr effect has shown that we may have more than meets the eye on the line. Only our coaches really know the value of the big guys and what they can bring to the table at this moment.
Move Chester to LT and if he squawks about his pay, threaten him with a taser.
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