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Old 12-15-2007   #121
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I'm just saying you can't use what Sage did in Miami as proof of anything, since there hasn't been a successful QB in Miami in a decade.
Um, no, you're completely wrong. Miami hasn't had any successful QB's because they haven't had one QB with any sort of rock solid starter-material talent. Saying you can't fault Sage for being on a bad team, makes me think David Carr wasn't at fault either

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
He's smart, he's poised, and has the ability to win within the context of a team. Which is much better than half the starters in the league today.

My argument, is that he's good trade bait, and I believe there are several GMs who are looking at Sage right now, and thinking about next year.
There could be, because there are a lot of very very stupid GM's in the league who have made terrible decisions throughout there career. Anybody that is willing to give up the amount of picks the Texans would demand for Sage (Because he's still under contract, and any team who would want them would have to actually trade picks for him) is not that bright really.

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I doubt anyone will sign him as their starter, but they'll sign him with the intent of letting him compete for a starting job, which is better than what we will offer him.
This makes no sense. Again, if any team is willing to try to get him from us this off season or next, they will have to give up quite a bit to get him. He'll have to be their starter, or else they will have traded at least 2 picks (or a really high one) to get a backup?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Gee... that sounds like Ben Rothlisberger, Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Tavaris Jackson, Jason Campbell, Chad Pennington, Jay Cutler, & David Garrard.
Pennington and Jackson both have pretty much sucked the entire year. Phillip Rivers is woefully underperforming with the talent around him, and Eli is making ridiculous mistakes in a lot of his games. His cupcake schedule is whats making him look good. Jason Campbell is decidedly bleh. Ben Roethlisberger, haha. I'm sorry but Big Ben is a way better QB than Sage is due to the fact that he has a decent gun, is fairly accurate, and aside from 1 year, has never put up anything really worse than a 1.5 TD - 1 INT ration. Sage could never claim that. And the jury is still out on Jay Cutler, but for his rookie season, the kid is looking alright, but it's still his rookie season. Seriously though, aside from PIT and DEN most all of those teams are having QB issues of one sort or another, and would probably look to sign Sage if we were giving him away for next to nothing.

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He's not Peyton Manning(who will throw 6 INTs in a game from time to time), Tom Brady, or Bret Farve.

That's fine, I'd like to have that type of QB, but it's not necessary for a running football team.

I know I wish he was taking 100% of our snaps last year, and I bet there are several teams who'd like him to take most of their snaps this year.

My statement was simply to point out that no QB was successful in Miami, so you can't say that Sage is a back-up based on what he did in Miami.
The fact is, you don't want to see Sage taking all of our offensive snaps for an entire season. You will get a metric boatload of INT's some TD's (But the ratio won't be very good. 1:1 if we are lucky), and we won't have any of the real nice deep plays we've at least seen Schaub complete this season.
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Old 12-15-2007   #122
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
The fact is, you don't want to see Sage taking all of our offensive snaps for an entire season. You will get a metric boatload of INT's some TD's (But the ratio won't be very good. 1:1 if we are lucky), and we won't have any of the real nice deep plays we've at least seen Schaub complete this season.
Since you seem to take the TD:INT ratio very seriously, here's a question for ya.

12 TD to 8 INT

or

9 TD to 9 INT

Which would you prefer?
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Old 12-15-2007   #123
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by Mr PC View Post
Since you seem to take the TD:INT ratio very seriously, here's a question for ya.

12 TD to 8 INT

or

9 TD to 9 INT

Which would you prefer?
Well considering the 8 ints were in less than half the games the other one played, it would all depend now wouldn't it and that is the rub. That and the fact that this is a b.s. argument considering the need for 2 QBs and the number of guys hurt every year. That and the other numbers thrown out. But per usual the circle will continue as many decide to keep smearing one in order to make themselves feel better concerning their argument. Why can't you enjoy both without playing eraser accounting with stats?
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Old 12-15-2007   #124
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by HoustonFrog View Post
Well considering the 8 ints were in less than half the games the other one played, it would all depend now wouldn't it and that is the rub. That and the fact that this is a b.s. argument considering the need for 2 QBs and the number of guys hurt every year. That and the other numbers thrown out. But per usual the circle will continue as many decide to keep smearing one in order to make themselves feel better concerning their argument. Why can't you enjoy both without playing eraser accounting with stats?
dude I do enjoy both QBs, I have said many time that we are fortunate to have two solid QBs and I want to hang on to both players. I like Schaub, I think he will develop into Matt Hasslebeck. I like Sage, he wins games for us and plays solid football. The only reason I chime in like this is because some people continuosly slander Sage and make him sound like an inferior player when its just not the case.
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Old 12-15-2007   #125
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by Mr PC View Post
dude I do enjoy both QBs, I have said many time that we are fortunate to have two solid QBs and I want to hang on to both players. I like Schaub, I think he will develop into Matt Hasslebeck. I like Sage, he wins games for us and plays solid football. The only reason I chime in like this is because some people continuosly slander Sage and make him sound like an inferior player when its just not the case.
Here is the funny part. The only reason I ever joined these arguments was because TexanRed and GP...and sometimes you went on a 2 week bing on Sage is the man threads while putting down Schaub. I rarely have seen anyone say that they didn't like Sage last year or that Sage hasn't been a good play for us this year. Yet I continuously see people make up stats, thow out comparisons that don't fit and get game amnesia. The only argument I have ever seen against Sage is that he was on 2 other bad teams that tried him as a starter and he never made it. Which did happen. I've also seen people counteract the Schaub arguments about play since Sage's TOs have been high and his yardage lower. I love having the guy here. I just love having Schaub too and am trying to keep people straight on fantasy vs. reality concerning his games. That's it. I should probably slip out because it becomes a circle of nothing after awhile and my point all along..since my first post in this thread...is that we are playing well..Defense and Mario are helping us a ton which counteracts losing points off TOs. We are getting steady play throughout. We should be happy that it is happening and we have 2 really quality guys. I just wish Matt had the running game we have had lately and had Andre the whole time since he was 3-1 with him. I'm just happy to be a fighting 7-7.
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Old 12-15-2007   #126
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr PC View Post
dude I do enjoy both QBs, I have said many time that we are fortunate to have two solid QBs and I want to hang on to both players. I like Schaub, I think he will develop into Matt Hasslebeck. I like Sage, he wins games for us and plays solid football. The only reason I chime in like this is because some people continuosly slander Sage and make him sound like an inferior player when its just not the case.
I'm not trying to slander him like I hate the guy, because I don't. But when I say that you don't want to see him taking 100% of the snaps this season, that's just how I beleive it is. Sage is not as good as Schaub when it comes to:

1) Reading a defense in under 3 seconds
2) Pocket presence and ability to see where the blitz is coming

To me, this means that Schaub is my guy when comparing the two because Sage has had many years of experience playing for teams in a backup capacity, and Schaub has not. Schaub looks like the better QB, even from here, because of what he has had to deal with in his starts and games.

When it was announced that Sage would be starting the games vs TB, and DEN, were you happy? Did that make you think we had a better chance of winning? I didn't, because I know that Sage is liable for a few INT's a game for the most part. Yes, he does have a few games where he does not turn it over, but those games are not the norm for him.

I'm not trying to hate on the guy, but to me, he's just not what you want in a QB that will be starting for your franchise for years. He would be a stopgap at best if he were starting, and a decent backup any other time.

Nobody's trying to say that Sage is the worst thing to happen to the QB position since Chris Weinke, but I think most people who have an opinion that really matters, feels that Sage is not what you want your starting QB to be.

If you don't like that sort of talk in the "Start Sage Rosenfels" thread, then sorry, but I'm not going to say that this guy is the savior because he has won 3 games.

Oh, and I'd take Schaub's stat every day of the week and twice on Sunday. More games, with only 1 more INT is always a winner to me.
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Old 12-15-2007   #127
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by HoustonFrog View Post
I just wish Matt had the running game we have had lately and had Andre the whole time since he was 3-1 with him. I'm just happy to be a fighting 7-7.
not to split hairs, but Schaub is 3-2 with AJ. Remember we lost back to back games against Cleveland and Tennesse, virtually extinquishing our chances of going to the playoffs, and AJ was in for both games.


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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
I think most people who have an opinion that really matters, feels that Sage is not what you want your starting QB to be.
most people with an opinion that really matters? I dont know who you are but I dont think your opinion matters anymore than mine.

Quote:
If you don't like that sort of talk in the "Start Sage Rosenfels" thread, then sorry, but I'm not going to say that this guy is the savior because he has won 3 games.

Oh, and I'd take Schaub's stat every day of the week and twice on Sunday. More games, with only 1 more INT is always a winner to me.
So more games with only 1 more INT is always a winner to you, but less games with 3 more TDs is not a winner, and winning games is not a winner. Cool.
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Old 12-16-2007   #128
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by Mr PC View Post
most people with an opinion that really matters? I dont know who you are but I dont think your opinion matters anymore than mine.
NFL GM's, Coaches, players, not you, etc etc. Thanks for trying to turn it into an insult tho



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So more games with only 1 more INT is always a winner to you, but less games with 3 more TDs is not a winner, and winning games is not a winner. Cool.
Thats right, and that's pretty much because as long as Schaub is protected well he does better with long pass plays, gets more yards per pass attempt, and is not as old or experienced, but still puts up numbers that are just as good. His ceiling is way higher, and I think his tools are much better too.

But again, my opinion doesn't matter, so I don't even see why you're trying to convince me otherwise
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Old 12-16-2007   #129
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
I'm not trying to slander him like I hate the guy, because I don't. But when I say that you don't want to see him taking 100% of the snaps this season, that's just how I beleive it is. Sage is not as good as Schaub when it comes to:

1) Reading a defense in under 3 seconds
2) Pocket presence and ability to see where the blitz is coming

To me, this means that Schaub is my guy when comparing the two because Sage has had many years of experience playing for teams in a backup capacity, and Schaub has not. Schaub looks like the better QB, even from here, because of what he has had to deal with in his starts and games.

When it was announced that Sage would be starting the games vs TB, and DEN, were you happy? Did that make you think we had a better chance of winning? I didn't, because I know that Sage is liable for a few INT's a game for the most part. Yes, he does have a few games where he does not turn it over, but those games are not the norm for him.

I'm not trying to hate on the guy, but to me, he's just not what you want in a QB that will be starting for your franchise for years. He would be a stopgap at best if he were starting, and a decent backup any other time.

Nobody's trying to say that Sage is the worst thing to happen to the QB position since Chris Weinke, but I think most people who have an opinion that really matters, feels that Sage is not what you want your starting QB to be.

If you don't like that sort of talk in the "Start Sage Rosenfels" thread, then sorry, but I'm not going to say that this guy is the savior because he has won 3 games.

Oh, and I'd take Schaub's stat every day of the week and twice on Sunday. More games, with only 1 more INT is always a winner to me.
i hate "pocket presence" because i dont know what that means. i think people really mean pocket awareness. having a presence in the pocket is a bad description.

and just on numbers this year
schaub has a much higher ratio of sacks to pass attempts than sage does,
sage has over 100% better td %
sage does have a 33+% higher int %,
his % of 20+ yard plays is pretty even
and his % of 40+ plays is slightly better than schaub.

also sage has only played with 1 other team he never played for washington. he had the same number of starts that schaub had in atlanta.

their career numbers would tell you that schaub is sacked at a much higher % than sage has. so in my opinion the pocket awareness actually would go to sage on numbers alone. they both make mistakes and have a problem keeping hold of the ball when hit.

so like i said in the beginning of this thread sage is as good as schaub. everything points to this except opinions, but as of right now you cant say that schaub has done better than sage, but you can say that sage has done better than schaub.

but make no mistake about it schaub will start next year as long as hes healthy there are 47 million reasons for that. but 2 more wins could really hurt this team in the long run.

we still wont make the playoffs and then the fan based could be split down the middle on this if schaub gets off to a slow start next year. but if we keep winning no one will care who is back there, i know i wont.
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Old 12-16-2007   #130
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr PC View Post
not to split hairs, but Schaub is 3-2 with AJ. Remember we lost back to back games against Cleveland and Tennesse, virtually extinquishing our chances of going to the playoffs, and AJ was in for both games.



most people with an opinion that really matters? I dont know who you are but I dont think your opinion matters anymore than mine.



So more games with only 1 more INT is always a winner to you, but less games with 3 more TDs is not a winner, and winning games is not a winner. Cool.
You mean the Tenn game where he was 3 for 5 for 34 yards and had to leave. You are kidding right?He left with an even ballgame. This is the same stats pencil whipping that GP was trying with Anderson.

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we still wont make the playoffs and then the fan based could be split down the middle on this if schaub gets off to a slow start next year. but if we keep winning no one will care who is back there, i know i wont.
This was the same thing many of us said after people said Carr whould be Sage's backup for a 6th year here, yet it didn't matter. I find it quite funny that it was still a debate after 5 years but a guy plays 11 games and people are already turning. There is nothing in his stats that suggests he should be being treated this way. It all comes down to a bandwagon mentality of people who just like to complain. If Schaub fails next year I'm all for the change but many of us are shaking our head in disbelief that it has come about for no reason(AGAIN, GO TO PAGE 4 AND LOOK AT THE RUNDOWN) after 11 games.
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Old 12-16-2007   #131
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
Um, no, you're completely wrong. Miami hasn't had any successful QB's because they haven't had one QB with any sort of rock solid starter-material talent. Saying you can't fault Sage for being on a bad team, makes me think David Carr wasn't at fault either
Let's see.
Action/ResultWe change our QB, we're a better team.

ConclusionQB was part of the problem.

Action/REsultThey change their QB, they continue to get worse.

ConclusionQB not necessarily the problem.
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There could be, because there are a lot of very very stupid GM's in the league who have made terrible decisions throughout there career. Anybody that is willing to give up the amount of picks the Texans would demand for Sage (Because he's still under contract, and any team who would want them would have to actually trade picks for him) is not that bright really.
Let's flip the script. Let's say we were looking for a QB. We've got our eye on a 3-year back-up whose never won a game he started. Looks promising, but not proven.

We give up 2 second round picks, and trade down 4 spots in the first round. We pay this unproven career back-up like a starter, and we announce him as our starting QB.

What does that make us??
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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
This makes no sense. Again, if any team is willing to try to get him from us this off season or next, they will have to give up quite a bit to get him. He'll have to be their starter, or else they will have traded at least 2 picks (or a really high one) to get a backup?

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Pennington and Jackson both have pretty much sucked the entire year. Phillip Rivers is woefully underperforming with the talent around him, and Eli is making ridiculous mistakes in a lot of his games. His cupcake schedule is whats making him look good. Jason Campbell is decidedly bleh.
Proving my point.
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Ben Roethlisberger, haha. I'm sorry but Big Ben is a way better QB than Sage is due to the fact that he has a decent gun, is fairly accurate, and aside from 1 year, has never put up anything really worse than a 1.5 TD - 1 INT ration. Sage could never claim that. And the jury is still out on Jay Cutler, but for his rookie season, the kid is looking alright, but it's still his rookie season. Seriously though, aside from PIT and DEN most all of those teams are having QB issues of one sort or another, and would probably look to sign Sage if we were giving him away for next to nothing.
my point, with mentioning the guys I did.

Though they are starters, you can't put the ball in their hand and expect them to win the game. Nothing against them as QBs, but you're asking for trouble if you expect them to avg 30+ atts/game.
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The fact is, you don't want to see Sage taking all of our offensive snaps for an entire season. You will get a metric boatload of INT's some TD's (But the ratio won't be very good. 1:1 if we are lucky), and we won't have any of the real nice deep plays we've at least seen Schaub complete this season.
If you want to believe Schaub has a stronger arm than Sage... you go right ahead. I've not seen it.

I also don't see why you think Matt Schaub(with a 1:1TD/Int ratio) would through less INTs as a starter than Sage Rosenfels(with a 3:2 TD/Int ratio).
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Old 12-16-2007   #132
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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You mean the Tenn game where he was 3 for 5 for 34 yards and had to leave. You are kidding right?He left with an even ballgame. This is the same stats pencil whipping that GP was trying with Anderson.
I never ONCE mentioned Anderson, so I don't know what you're talking about.

LOL.

YOU accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about, yet you have me confused with another poster.

The only PLAYERS I have mentioned in this entire debate is Matt Schaub and Sage Rosenfels. I could care about AJ or Anderson or any of the other players. Know why? Because it's irrelevant. Sage has done more. Sage's arm looks better, his choices have been better (when he's not trying to rally us from 4 TD deficits), and he's (drum roll, please...) healthy and able to go another game after each Sunday. If I wanted to talk about any of the other players, I would begin by mentioning the depleted oline that Sage is somehow working well with. Let us all remember the first of the season when the oline was interviewed after Schaub's first game...it was all about how better QB play had finally excused the oline from the nasty criticism they received during the Carr era. Well, I would submit that somewhere along the way, Schaub's play grew worse and the oline began to look worse--You can't have it both ways. Either the oline is pure crap and NOBODY would flourish back there as QB, or the oline's play is reflective of the QB play. Pick one, please.

You've just cut yourself off at the knees by trying to tie me to Anderson--I suppose you're talking about the WR?. I have never mentioned the guy in probably three months or so (maybe back in camp), so you might want to sift through the posts and figure out who did.

If you get this wrong, what else are you wrong on? So much for you accusing me of typing out 100 mph replies....
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Old 12-16-2007   #133
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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I never ONCE mentioned Anderson, so I don't know what you're talking about.
LOL.

YOU accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about, yet you have me confused with another poster.

The only PLAYERS I have mentioned in this entire debate is Matt Schaub and Sage Rosenfels. I could care about AJ or Anderson or any of the other players. Know why? Because it's irrelevant. Sage has done more. Sage's arm looks better, his choices have been better (when he's not trying to rally us from 4 TD deficits), and he's (drum roll, please...) healthy and able to go another game after each Sunday. If I wanted to talk about any of the other players, I would begin by mentioning the depleted oline that Sage is somehow working well with. Let us all remember the first of the season when the oline was interviewed after Schaub's first game...it was all about how better QB play had finally excused the oline from the nasty criticism they received during the Carr era. Well, I would submit that somewhere along the way, Schaub's play grew worse and the oline began to look worse--You can't have it both ways. Either the oline is pure crap and NOBODY would flourish back there as QB, or the oline's play is reflective of the QB play. Pick one, please.

You've just cut yourself off at the knees by trying to tie me to Anderson--I suppose you're talking about the WR?. I have never mentioned the guy in probably three months or so (maybe back in camp), so you might want to sift through the posts and figure out who did.

If you get this wrong, what else are you wrong on? So much for you accusing me of typing out 100 mph replies....
Derek Anderson would like to talk about this topic.

He was up-and-down in Cleveland. There was Tim Couch, then there was Charlie Frye, then there was Derek, then it was back to Tim, and then it was Derek, and then it was Frye, and over and over and over.

And I guess Derek Anderson just somehow found a way one day.

Kind of like Sage is doing, IMO.

But you go ahead and keep your thumb down on Sage. As I have said, the same old cliches are at work here: "Sage is nothing more than a backup..."

He's a backup who has started three games and has won three games.

And this TEAM that everyone says I don't support...well, they sure seem to click with Sage at the wheel.



Maybe that's what he was talking about
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Old 12-16-2007   #134
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

We all have an opinion about this, even those of us just lurking and not speaking out. Mine is that the primary difference in the play of the two QB's has been affected by the presence (or lack of) a running game and the presence (or lack of) Andre Johnson. That along with improved play by the defense towards the end of the season (just like last year) has made the difference for us.

AJ has an obvious effect on the running game. That's indisputable.

Week 1 & 2 we have both a running game and AJ. Matt Schaub looks good and everyone is happy.

Andre Johnson nets 142 yards and 120 yards respectively.
The Texans run for 109 yards and 119 yards respectively.
The defense has no trouble holding down two fairly bad teams.

With AJ to account for and a credible running game the Texans go 2-0.

Weeks 3-5 we lose AJ and Ahman Green starts his in and out of the lineup thing due to his knee. Nobody respects Andre Davis and Kevin Walter at this point. Ron Dayne is off to his usual slow start and Samkon Gado is useless. The wheels start to come off.

Andre Johnson is out of the picture.
The Texans run for 40, 87, and 74 yards respectively.
The defense lets the Colts, Falcons, and to some extent the Dolphins go off on them.

With Schaub now on plenty of film and all of his best weapons (at this point) on the shelf the Texans go 1-2.

We are 3-2 on the season at this time. People are still happy albeit frustrated at the injuries we've sustained. You don't see anybody crying about how Schaub has played. People seem to understand that without a running game and AJ the Texans are a different team

Weeks 6-8 The competition gets tougher while the Texans continue to lose players and struggle to run the ball.

Still no Andre Johnson but others are doing their best to pick up the slack
The Texans run for 61, 39, and 115 yards respectively.
The defense allows all three of these teams to bust 30 points.

During this stretch the "Legend of Sage" is born as he puts up good stats in Jacksonville during garbage time to contrast with a bad game from Matt Schaub and engineers a 29 point fourth quarter against Tennessee after putting us in huge hole following Matt Schaub's injury. A seed of doubt gets planted. Schaub gets hurt again at San Diego and suddenly he's fragile. You might think that the Texans ran the ball "ok" at San Diego unless you note that they were far behind at the half and everybody in the NFL will let you try and run the ball when they have you by 32 points. The Texans go 0-3.

The Texans are 3-5 at this point and I'm starting to see people turn on Matt Schaub like that number 8 makes him David Carr by proxy.

Weeks 9-11 The Texans play two games with the bye week in the middle. Ron Dayne finally starts to get in gear against a bad run defense while AJ returns.

Andre Johnson returns against New Orleans and puts up 120 yards.
The Texans run for 178 and 103 yards.
The defense hold a bad Raiders team down and makes a statement against the Saints (and Saint Reggie)

The Texans go 2-0 during this stretch.

Weeks 12-13 The Texans lose a couple of games we all thought they'd win and I blow a gasket. A few board members decide they've seen enough of Matt Schaub.

Andre Johnson gets 37 and 116 yards respectively.
The Texans run for 77 and 119 yards respectively.
The defense plays ok but can't take over either game.

Against Cleveland the Texans get nothing from the running game and AJ has a rare bad day. Cleveland's defense has an answer for him and we get shut down. A few more people start mumbling about starting Sage. Then against Tennessee "fragile" Matt gets his left shoulder separated in the first quarter and Sage takes over. Despite having 119 yards rushing from the ground game and AJ getting his hundred yards the Texans still lose by 8 after leading at the half by 3.

The Texans follow their 2-0 run with an 0-2 run. This season is kind of feast or famine for us.

Weeks 14-15 The Texans win a pair we all probably thought they would lose and suddenly Sage is our starter

Andre Johnson gets 82 and 86 yards respectively.
The Texans run for 71 and 158 respectively.
The defense allows 14 and 13 points respectively.

The Texans are 7-7 at this point in the season and for some reason we're still trying to find things to argue with each other about.

Matt vs. Sage is in full swing now and for the life of me I can't see why this is even being discussed. This "debate" is a wash. The differences between them are primarily things apart from QB play. When we run the ball we tend to win more. When Andre Johnson is on the field we tend to have a better chance of running the ball well. When we don't turn over the ball non-stop we tend to win more. When the defense takes over the game we tend to win more.

Hello? Anybody getting this? Your "QB controversy" is non-existent, The Texans don't appear to even be so much as considering this. It's all taking place in your collective imaginations.
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Old 12-16-2007   #135
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
1. Schaub is fragile no matter WHAT type of hit he takes. Nothing less than perfect oline blocking is going to allow him to be a good QB.

2. Schaub is slow getting away from center, giving the rushing defenders an easier chance of reaching him and disrupting the play. His footwork also gets sloppy as the game goes on, appearing ot be sluggish and uncertain of where to go as he's trying to scramble...resulting in getting waxed from the blindside.

3. Schaub is not a marathon runner--He looks good in short bursts. The guy hasn't strung together more than 1 1/2 games of fast-paced football. IMO, he was gassed after the Panthers game and didn't recover.

4. He cannot sense blinside pressure and make the right decision because he's trying too hard to make something happen. Throw it away, and play another down, please.
1) Schaub has taken a lot more hits than Sage. Anybody can suffer a concussion from the kind of cheapshot he took. Anybody can get a dislocated shoulder when they have a 300 lb man pound them into the ground. In general Sage has gotten better protection than Schaub, and, in general, the QBs have had the most time when teams have had to respect play-action. In no game has Schaub experienced the luxurious pass protection that Sage got against the Broncos.

2) Schaub takes longer drops than Sage. But the gameplan also hasn't been the same with the two. For example, against the Tacks, for whatever reason, the coaches had Schaub taking 5-7 step drops, getting him killed in the process.

3) Schaub is essentially a rookie. All rookie QBs are going to have ups and downs, but Schaub has had far more ups than downs.

4) Sage has done the same thing in every game he's played. Against the Bucs, he hung onto the ball too long and fumbled. Last game he forced a throw into triple coverage that resulted in the Broncos' only TD. Even his incredible 4th quarter performance against the Tacks was necessitated by his earlier errors that resulted in 9 points, which could have easily been more. At least two of Schaub's interceptions weren't really his fault.

5) Sage has the benefit more than Schaub of having AJ and a running game.

6) Schaub is 4 years younger than Sage. He has more potential than Sage in the sense that what you see from Sage now is what you're going to get down the road. We don't know with Schaub. He could get worse, like Carr, but it's more likely he'll get better.

I'm not bashing Sage by countering your points. Their play has been pretty even in my opinion. But there will be no QB controversy in the coaches' minds when TC starts (or in mind for that matter). Now, in the (please, no) event that Schaub does regress or continues to get injured, we can thank our lucky stars we have Sage.
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Old 12-16-2007   #136
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
The Texans are 7-7 at this point in the season and for some reason we're still trying to find things to argue with each other about.

Matt vs. Sage is in full swing now and for the life of me I can't see why this is even being discussed. This "debate" is a wash. The differences between them are primarily things apart from QB play. When we run the ball we tend to win more. When Andre Johnson is on the field we tend to have a better chance of running the ball well. When we don't turn over the ball non-stop we tend to win more. When the defense takes over the game we tend to win more.

Hello? Anybody getting this? Your "QB controversy" is non-existent, The Texans don't appear to even be so much as considering this. It's all taking place in your collective imaginations.
Exactly.
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Old 12-16-2007   #137
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
I never ONCE mentioned Anderson, so I don't know what you're talking about.

LOL.

YOU accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about, yet you have me confused with another poster.

The only PLAYERS I have mentioned in this entire debate is Matt Schaub and Sage Rosenfels. I could care about AJ or Anderson or any of the other players. Know why? Because it's irrelevant. Sage has done more. Sage's arm looks better, his choices have been better (when he's not trying to rally us from 4 TD deficits), and he's (drum roll, please...) healthy and able to go another game after each Sunday. If I wanted to talk about any of the other players, I would begin by mentioning the depleted oline that Sage is somehow working well with. Let us all remember the first of the season when the oline was interviewed after Schaub's first game...it was all about how better QB play had finally excused the oline from the nasty criticism they received during the Carr era. Well, I would submit that somewhere along the way, Schaub's play grew worse and the oline began to look worse--You can't have it both ways. Either the oline is pure crap and NOBODY would flourish back there as QB, or the oline's play is reflective of the QB play. Pick one, please.

You've just cut yourself off at the knees by trying to tie me to Anderson--I suppose you're talking about the WR?. I have never mentioned the guy in probably three months or so (maybe back in camp), so you might want to sift through the posts and figure out who did.

If you get this wrong, what else are you wrong on? So much for you accusing me of typing out 100 mph replies....
WHOOPS, LMAOI guess you can't even keep up with you own diarrhea of the mouth...LOL..seriously, please stop. Considering Couch was gone from there in 2003, Anderson was picked up off waivers last year and played this year. Your circles are running into each other. Maybe you should remember what you decided to ramble about since you don't read and only spew. You have lost any semblance of respect you might have had after this. Go fight over something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
Derek Anderson would like to talk about this topic.

He was up-and-down in Cleveland. There was Tim Couch, then there was Charlie Frye, then there was Derek, then it was back to Tim, and then it was Derek, and then it was Frye, and over and over and over.

And I guess Derek Anderson just somehow found a way one day.

Kind of like Sage is doing, IMO.

But you go ahead and keep your thumb down on Sage. As I have said, the same old cliches are at work here: "Sage is nothing more than a backup..."

He's a backup who has started three games and has won three games.

And this TEAM that everyone says I don't support...well, they sure seem to click with Sage at the wheel.
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Last edited by HoustonFrog; 12-16-2007 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 12-16-2007   #138
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
Hello? Anybody getting this? Your "QB controversy" is non-existent, The Texans don't appear to even be so much as considering this. It's all taking place in your collective imaginations.
THANK YOU!7 pages and it is still the point that many of us have been fighting for. Heck some of the people turning on Schaub don't even remember what they wrote 3 pages ago.
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Old 12-16-2007   #139
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance_C View Post
Derek Anderson would like to talk about this topic.

He was up-and-down in Cleveland. There was Tim Couch, then there was Charlie Frye, then there was Derek, then it was back to Tim, and then it was Derek, and then it was Frye, and over and over and over.

And I guess Derek Anderson just somehow found a way one day.

Kind of like Sage is doing, IMO.

But you go ahead and keep your thumb down on Sage. As I have said, the same old cliches are at work here: "Sage is nothing more than a backup..."

He's a backup who has started three games and has won three games.

And this TEAM that everyone says I don't support...well, they sure seem to click with Sage at the wheel.



Maybe that's what he was talking about
Was just now watching the Browns game and remembered that I did mention DEREK Anderson several days ago--I've slept since then. With us having a WR named Anderson, I was confused on the issue. My bad. I CAN apologize, by the way.

But I won't apologize about how I feel about this whole deal.

I finally get to see us string together some nice wins, without Ahman Green and with an even more depleted oline, and it's been nothing but "Can't wait until Schaub is back!"

Maybe Sage isn't the long-term answer, but I seriously doubt that Matt Schaub is it either if we want to size them up side-by-side. Matt has the brains and instinct, but I'm not so sure he has the endurance and durability to last. Call me a jerk for saying it, but that's how I feel.

We'll win one of the next two, pushing us to an 8-8 record. Four of those wins were quarterbacked by Sage and four of them by Matt--But I would def argue that the Miami win was by Kris Brown's leg more than anything else. I want us to win, and we need to see which guy is the better starter for us...that would involve a lot of factors: 1. Schaub allowing an open competition in camp, 2. Kubiak and others permitting it to happen or asking for it to happen, 3. McNair looking at the possibility of having wasted draft picks and money when he had a potential starter all along, thus not endearing Kubiak to him due to the previous QB mis-calculation by Kubiak, 4. Sage even desiring to stay at all, possibly looking at asking for a trade to a team who would give him an open competition for the starting job.

I don't really enjoy the wins so much anymore because I'm perplexed as to what the long-term answer is for this team: So many holes, and now the QB spot (for me) is a mess, as well. It's a good mess, like you guys say, but it's just one more element of surprise that I'm tired of. I want stability and the comfort of the "known commodity," of having roster depth spots NAILED DOWN. Until then, we're just living on borrowed time, IMO.

Congrats to us, we've won...and we looked pretty good on NFLN...but are we for real, or are we just pretending again? Are we the trap game where we only win when teams don't take us seriously?

If Sage has a good game vs. Indy, what will that say? If Sage helps us win convincingly vs. the Jags AND the Colts, what does that mean to you? Is it a mere "Good job, Sage The Backup..." or is it "Uhh, well...ummm..."
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Old 12-23-2007   #140
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
Congrats to us, we've won...and we looked pretty good on NFLN...but are we for real, or are we just pretending again? Are we the trap game where we only win when teams don't take us seriously?

If Sage has a good game vs. Indy, what will that say? If Sage helps us win convincingly vs. the Jags AND the Colts, what does that mean to you? Is it a mere "Good job, Sage The Backup..." or is it "Uhh, well...ummm..."
That's a very well thought out post, and it contained a few ounces of humble.

We could very well be pretending. But we're pretending that we are better and more talented than we've ever been. Being .500 this late in the season is a first, so I at least see improvement over the long haul. I think that even if we lose in horrific fashion I've seen enough to be pleasantly surprised and a little more excited about next season than I was this season.

If Sage helps us win convincingly and his body of work that he puts in is really quality work then why not hold a competition? I trust the coaches opinions though and I'm not going to get all mad and think somebody was screwed if Schaub starts. It wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit because I think he has much more talent than Sage, but that's me. I'm not going to be angry if Sage turns in quality performances, but I'm not going to just completely write Schaub off as a complete failure before I see his second season starting.
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