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Old 12-14-2007   #101
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by Mr PC View Post
Ive looked at the stats and seen both of them perform. Like I said they both did well. But there is no way to make the case that Schaub has done better than Sage. You could make the case that they have performed about equally, or that Schaub has a higher ceiling, but there is no way you can say Matt has performed better than Sage this season. In the last sentece of your post you say you hate the bandwagon mentality of proclaiming one player better than another based on a relatively small sample size. Guess what that is exactly what you are doing when you say Matt is better than Sage.
Correct: Both those guys are backups, essentially.

And I truly feel, 100%, that Sage is proving out to be just as capable a starter for THIS team as Schaub has been depicted as being.
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Old 12-14-2007   #102
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
I was off the Schaub wagon right about the Miami game. So I was off the wagon way before Sage was even breaking a sweat on the field on Sundays this season.The whole "Sage is a great backup" thing is what's really irking me, I guess. To me, it's a slap in the face of a guy (Sage) who has been a better overall solution at QB than Schaub has been.

Man, I am sorry if this rubs you wrong. But I just do NOT see what you all see in Matt Schaub. You can say I am making a snap judgment, but that's what happens when we get fed a bunch of mularkey on David Carr for 5 years.

This team has a vastly more depleted line than Schaub had, and Sage is making it work. He's just flat out lapping Schaub when it comes to getting it done.

I think we've just about worn this argument out. I think I have said all I can say, which is probably just fine with you.
Ok, fine but I've shown in the stats in page 4 that you are off about his play in those games.

It rubs me the wrong way because you are saying we were fed mularkey yet you admitted to ate it up while some of us said it wasn't true for 3 years. Now you are doing the same thing with Sage yet don't see it and are trying to throw it in our face. So how does that make sense?Obviously I'm not the only way thinking this. You are right, the circular reasoning has hit a point where there isn't much more to say.

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Originally Posted by Mr PC View Post
Ive looked at the stats and seen both of them perform. Like I said they both did well. But there is no way to make the case that Schaub has done better than Sage. You could make the case that they have performed about equally, or that Schaub has a higher ceiling, but there is no way you can say Matt has performed better than Sage this season. In the last sentece of your post you say you hate the bandwagon mentality of proclaiming one player better than another based on a relatively small sample size. Guess what that is exactly what you are doing when you say Matt is better than Sage.
Actually no. The only reason I'm in any of these arguments was within a week of Sage doing well you all were jumping on the "Sage should have been playing all along, Schaub is no good, we wasted draft picks" bandwagon. My whole argument all along was just to compare the two without the b.s. and look at the real stats without the hyperbole. I have done that yet keep hearing the railings of ALL of this horrible games while dismissing turnovers of Sage's, etc. I just think it is a b.s., back-up-loving argument. The funny part of it is I like Sage ALOT. Again, I just want the facts to be straight instead of the weak stuff I've seen thrown around which somehow makes one guy infallible.

Overall it is tiring to hear about one guy "tearing up" other teams when his stats are no better than the other one and the main reason we are winning is we are getting a complete team effort and having our D step up. I respect counter arguments on this board if everyone just takes in the whole picture. I definitely am impressed with Sage. I just am more impressed withg our team as a whole and think we have a good system for Schaub to play in and Sage to do what he is doing. We need both.

My work is done..thanks for having fun in this.
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Last edited by HoustonFrog; 12-14-2007 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 12-14-2007   #103
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post

1. Schaub is fragile no matter WHAT type of hit he takes. Nothing less than perfect oline blocking is going to allow him to be a good QB. true to a certain extent so far.. but he has taken hits

2. Schaub is slow getting away from center, giving the rushing defenders an easier chance of reaching him and disrupting the play. His footwork also gets sloppy as the game goes on, appearing ot be sluggish and uncertain of where to go as he's trying to scramble...resulting in getting waxed from the blindside.you dont seem to realise that the o-line has just played better lately.. you'll say its because of sage but most would agree that they're just improving with exp.. sage didnt look too hot when he didnt get protection v the bucs

3. Schaub is not a marathon runner--He looks good in short bursts. The guy hasn't strung together more than 1 1/2 games of fast-paced football. IMO, he was gassed after the Panthers game and didn't recover. ridiculous

4. He cannot sense blinside pressure and make the right decision because he's trying too hard to make something happen. Throw it away, and play another down, please.
1. like some1 else said- watch the bucs
2. its not even true- a small example http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d804530be

alrite ive actually been on nfl.com for the last hour look at clips of all our games so far this season.. i highly recommend everybody who thinks sage> schaub do the same because its easy to forget how good schaub was and how much more explosive our passing game was...

and look at sages other games..

i hate that i sound like im bashing sage cos thats not my intent at all.. its just to show why schaub should start over him imo

in 2 of his 3 starts (broncos and raiders) were against terrible run D's which meant we had a legit running threat that those teams had to respect giving sage more time etc and all that means we get to run the denver offence so to speak


however in those two games:
sage made a stupid throw into double (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?game_i...nter&week=REG9 41 secs into the second vid if any1 wants to se) and triple coverage something schaub has been guilty of aswell.

v the titans- sages best game eventhough he threw 4 ints.. how much did the tacks hammering us and possibly easing up have to do though?

against the bucs he had a stupid fumble too

and in the 3 games hes won he threw for 181, 209 and 200 yds.. just saying he didnt have to shoulder the load

look this post is to prove that sage, though a fine qb, makes mistakes too..

personally im not worried, gary knows who is, and will put, the best qb out there and il cheer for them.. and i think it will be schaub
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Old 12-14-2007   #104
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

We are fine at QB and there is no controversy. Schaub is the starter and Sage is showing the league that he can start for most clubs as well. All parties are enjoying the win-win situation, save for a couple of stragglers.
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Old 12-14-2007   #105
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

thinking about it...i hate this thread!

we should be enjoying this run not arguing about qb's again ... same ole texansfans
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Old 12-14-2007   #106
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by Maddict5 View Post
thinking about it...i hate this thread!

we should be enjoying this run not arguing about qb's again ... same ole texansfans
QFT..thus the fire
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Old 12-15-2007   #107
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

Houston Frog says I am only interested in forcing everyone to adopt my viewpoint, but if you check HIS last few posts on this thread...he continues to hammer away, trying to prove me wrong; trying to say HE is right. He's just as dogmatic as I am, and he thinks that throwing some stats out there is going to sway the jury for a conviction.

I'm not going to stop saying it: I like this team better when Sage is starting and has a chance to go the distance in a game.

The only stats I follow are the W-L stats, and we're rapidly approaching Sage's 4th win...which will match Schaub's win total in 11 tries.

4-7

3-0

David Carr had a few good stats, IIRC, but it was not necessarily indicative of translating into W's.

Just as a lot of you rag the media for parroting each other on the VY-RB-Mario situation for the past 1.5 years, I see a lot of similar behavior from posters on this board: "Sage is a great backup," or "Sure am glad to have a great backup like Sage."

They are BOTH backups, and one backup (IMO) is looking like more of a starter than the other.

You can't give me 2 or 3 seasons worth of Schaub as a starter to really convince me that Schaub is the better QB. I have THIS season to go by, and I don't like what I see in Schaub. So sue me.
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Old 12-15-2007   #108
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
Houston Frog says I am only interested in forcing everyone to adopt my viewpoint, but if you check HIS last few posts on this thread...he continues to hammer away, trying to prove me wrong; trying to say HE is right. He's just as dogmatic as I am, and he thinks that throwing some stats out there is going to sway the jury for a conviction.

I'm not going to stop saying it: I like this team better when Sage is starting and has a chance to go the distance in a game.

The only stats I follow are the W-L stats, and we're rapidly approaching Sage's 4th win...which will match Schaub's win total in 11 tries.

4-7

3-0

David Carr had a few good stats, IIRC, but it was not necessarily indicative of translating into W's.

Just as a lot of you rag the media for parroting each other on the VY-RB-Mario situation for the past 1.5 years, I see a lot of similar behavior from posters on this board: "Sage is a great backup," or "Sure am glad to have a great backup like Sage."

They are BOTH backups, and one backup (IMO) is looking like more of a starter than the other.

You can't give me 2 or 3 seasons worth of Schaub as a starter to really convince me that Schaub is the better QB. I have THIS season to go by, and I don't like what I see in Schaub. So sue me.
If it makes you feel better, keep trying. There are multiple people in this thread that have hammered you because of your random insistence to look blindly at our team as a whole and even evaluate the QB position objectively. I have stated multiple times that both guys have done a bang up job. My job isn't to be right, it is to actually point out the realistic stats and look objectively at the QB position. You have made up stuff about the stats, you have ignored objective posts, you have made up stuff about players like Anderson. Again, the difference between you and the rest of us is that we aren't raving about one player in order to make him better. We are counteracting a bandwagon approach that refuses to look at how well we are doing with both and that there shouldn't be a controversy. Go look at my first post and look at your response. You can't objectively look at anything because you just want to beat your chest. Let me remind you.

Me. complimenting both:
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Dear Lord people. Enjoy a TEAM win with Mario breaking out on national TV. Schaub played excellent in some losses this year without weapons and did well for us. Sage has done well also and won the last 3. Considering his background in the league I'm not jumping on any controversies. Sage did a good job tonight but wasn't the ONE who won the game for us. Schaub has done the same. Enjoy the win without the b.s. The making mountains out of molehills gets old quick.
You beating your chest:
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Typical of someone who's on the losing end of the argument.

Nice try.

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If this is how you act, then you will get these responses. Sorry.
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Last edited by HoustonFrog; 12-15-2007 at 06:49 PM.
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Old 12-15-2007   #109
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

I'm still in the camp that Schaub is our starting QB heading into next season, and that Sage is a great back-up who is worth every cent we pay him. I think comparing W-L records is a little unfair based on this year alone since Schaub was missing this teams biggest offensive weapon for 7 of his 11 starts, and wins and losses have quite a bit more to do with how the entire team plays and who you are playing than it does how one individual performs. Pulling out the W-L's as the main argument for Sage to be our starter is reminiscent of the Vinsanity followers blindly buying into the "He doesn't play that great, but he just wins," dogma.

Bottom line is we have two quarterbacks who are very capable of winning a lot of games in this league. Schaub's our starter right now, but if this season is any indication of his ability to stay healthy, Sage will be equally important to this team.

Where it gets interesting for me is if Sage plays great and we beat the Colts and the Jags in competitive games. If that happens, especially the beating the Colts part, I'd like to see at least a camp competition for the starting spot next year. I did like to see all the attention Sage was getting from his team mates at the end of the game Thursday. It was obvious to me that he is highly admired by his team, and that says a lot about him as a leader.
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Old 12-15-2007   #110
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

The thing about it, is that in January of '06, when the Texans confirmed their desire to continue on with the David Carr experiment, & when we were going over what a "Denver Style offense" needed out of the QB position to be successful, it was pretty much accepted that we didn't need a H.O.F. ProBowler at the QB position.

We needed someone who was calm under pressure, understands the game, and willing to sacrifice his body(& stat line) in order to make a play, and give us a chance to win.

Alot of us saw that in Sage from the first preseason game, and when we were in the hunt for a QB(after the obvious failure of the mitten man) many of us would have preferred to stay with Sage, instead of overpaying an over the hill free agent, or overspending ourselves to make a move in the draft to acquire a QB through the draft.

But we gave up two second round picks to acquire Matt Schaub. Weather you think that was too much, or a bargain, you've got to agree that was pretty expensive. Especially considering the contract we gave Schaub, in contrast to the what we are paying for Sage.

Now, I'm thrilled that Sage has had this opportunity to show the NFL what he can do. & I'm pleased that he's doing well.

It would be nice, if we could keep both Sage & Schuab, even though I think we were more generous than we needed to be, I think Matt will be a fine NFL QB, and he'll take us as far as this team can go.

But Sage Rosenfels is proving himself to be a rare commodity in this NFL.

Who is going to start for Baltimore in '08?? Chicago?? Miami?? Kansas City?? Philly?? Atlanta?? Carolina?? SF??

Because of Sage Rosenfels, we may, for the very first time, be in the drivers seat when the offseason rolls around, and on the good side of trade talks with other teams.

It would be great to be able to keep Sage & Matt, but wouldn't it be nice to have Chester Taylor in our backfield?? or Julius Jones?? Kenny Watson?? Jerious Norwood??


Or what would you think if we could trade Sage Rosenfels & Darius Walker for Ed Reed??
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Old 12-15-2007   #111
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post

It would be great to be able to keep Sage & Matt, but wouldn't it be nice to have Chester Taylor in our backfield?? or Julius Jones?? Kenny Watson?? Jerious Norwood??
Or what would you think if we could trade Sage Rosenfels & Darius Walker for Ed Reed??
chester taylor- i wouldnt do it but i see what you're thinking
julius jones-1) yeah that romo guy sure does stink. they'll be desperate
2) julius is a fa anyway

kenny watson-1)carson palmer?
2)kenny watson wtf? you want to give away the best backup qb in the league for kenny watson? thunderkyss casserly anyone?
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Old 12-15-2007   #112
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

Sage is not trade bait he is the franchise right now, Schaub is sceduled for surgery so it appears we have a very capable qb to start. All you trade sage guys need to look at it like trade schaub. can we get what we paid for him and if so I say do it. I do not think schaub is holding his value very well. Right now we are lucky not to be miami or San Fran or thr Ravens. We have a team that has heart. and where did they get it. I believe Sage has a lot to do with that. Do not try to throw the guy wh has stepped up the most from the bench under the bus. He is playing as good as he possibly can right now and I am thankful we are getting points on the board.
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Old 12-15-2007   #113
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Bunch of nonsense.
Sorry but I have seen many years of Sage playing. He is only "okay". His days in Miami, along with his days here in Houston has shown me that he is a backup. He is usually good for about 200 yards and and about 30 passing attempts for a game he starts. Sage does good as long as the running game is chugging along nicely and defenses can't tee off on him passing.

If Sage goes and starts for a team they will be mediocre as long as all of the pieces around him are working properly (The running game, and protection, and the defense giving him good field position). He cannot shoulder an entire team and win by himself week in and week out. It's just not going to happen with Sage and this is why he's a backup.

With Schaub there is definitely not enough evidence to show either, and people who are trying to convince you that Schaub is a bust are just trying to do like the media and have the first right opinion. I see certain posters always trying to pat themselves on the back around here for their prior posts saying "Mario was good" or "Carr was bad". There's just not enough evidence really of what Schaub can or cannot do on an offense. He has been hurt twice this season on some brutal shots. It happens. Next season will be what I consider his "sophmore" season, and we should really see some improvement (Maybe even considerable improvement) if Schaub is who we think he will be.

But saying that Schaub is nothing more than a backup is just silly and has way too much "jump the gun". People saying that Sage is great and should be a starter, have a very bad longterm memory, and are only thinking about his last 3 starts (2 of which have been against very below average defenses).

Besides that, this probably won't even be an issue come next season if we address the O-line in any way shape or form. I have a feeling that Mr. Schaub will benefit a lot more from having more than 1.3 seconds to read a defense and make a decision.
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Old 12-15-2007   #114
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Default Re: Wow....this is gonna be tough

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What's crazy is that if Sage hadn't broken his hand last season Kubes probably would've pulled Carr and we would've seen him put these performances together. Do you think we would've traded for Schaub then or let Sage have his shot?

As it is I think our qbs are interchangeable in terms of production but we hitched our wagon to Schaub in the offseason so I think we have them battle it out in training camp next season unless somebody offers us a sweet deal for Sage.
Truth!

I just found this thread and had to go thru 4 pages before someone finally said the real reason why Sage didn't start the final 2-3 games of last year. Sage broke his hand trying to make a tackle on a special teams play - a blocked FG I think.

Oh, and with that injury there goes your "Sage is not fragile" theory right out the window.

The smart thing to do is keep them both. Any player can get hurt at any time. We are in a most excellent position when our backup QB can run the offense without much drop-off in effectiveness.

Unless and until we have a third QB who can also come in and run the offense effectively, we don't let go of our insurance policy. To do anything else flies in the face of common sense.

Last edited by ObsiWan; 12-15-2007 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 12-15-2007   #115
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

I posted this on another Sage thread earlier today, but feel it is worth repeating on this one:

I have read and watched the Sage threads the last couple of weeks without commenting. Mainly because I have been disgusted with the back and forth crap that has been posted. I want to go on record with the following:

I have been thrilled to see Sage come in and play so well. Thank God we have him and he has been able to perform and get wins the last couple of games.

But I see absolutely no reason to trash Schaub, just because you like what you have seen from Sage. Can't we be happy with our QB situation? It sure is a heck of a lot better than it was last year. Just because you like one player over another, there is NO REASON to villify the other. They are both Texans and I, for one, am glad to have both of them on the team.
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Old 12-15-2007   #116
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
Sorry but I have seen many years of Sage playing. He is only "okay". His days in Miami, along with his days here in Houston has shown me that he is a backup.
So which one of those stud QBs finally saved that franchise??

Or maybe it wasn't a QB problem??
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Old 12-15-2007   #117
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by brickman View Post
100% correct!!!! You don't give Schaub the kind of $ they gave him and then sit him. If he's healthy, he's your starter......... case closed. It may be right or wrong, but it's the way it is in the NFL now.
That depends on who the coach is.
Some coaches play the best guy. Period.

Example: Do you really think Derek Anderson is making more money than Brady Quinn??
Derek Anderson is making the NFL minimum.
Some have reported that Quinn signed for $7 mil guaranteed money; somewhere in the 20 mil neighborhood total money.
Yet Quinn sits.
And WILL CONTINUE TO SIT as long as Derek plays lights out like he's doing now. Big money contract be damned.



This bickering is pointless. Lord Schaub will be our QB next season and we will crush the AFC South in one swift stroke!

Last edited by ObsiWan; 12-15-2007 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 12-15-2007   #118
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
So which one of those stud QBs finally saved that franchise??

Or maybe it wasn't a QB problem??

Why are you trying to make me throw Sage under a bus when that is not what I'm trying to do.

I can garuntee you that Miami and Houston have both seen that Sage Rosenfels is a quality BACKUP and really not too much more. This is my opinion, but if you look at his numbers, and the kind of games he has, you can tell that he is a decent game manager (somewhat) who will make costly mistakes (Interceptions) if you force him to air out the ball, or complete a lot of passes. He's not making "rookie" mistakes or any of that nonsense, that is just the type of player he is. Somebody who is good for insurance, but not the guy you want to see taking 80% of the offensive snaps in a season.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your statement, but I'm guessing is that it's not Sage's fault that Miami can't see what talent they had, and Houston is making the same mistake.

That statement is pretty much false because Sage started in at least 4 or 5 Dolphins games in his career and was mediocre at best. Like I've said before, he is a career backup. He can come in and win a few games if you need it, but he cannot strap up a team like a backpack and carry them to a playoff berth. He gives up too many interceptions, and really is a lot looser with the ball than most OC's like. And HC's. And QB Coaches. The fact that he has won 3 of his starts here, while being very good, really doesn't mean much to me, as 2 of 3 starts we were favored to win any (The TB game was very impressive).

But no, I don't think there will be a QB controversey except the one that will be maintained by the people who are never satisfied with how a Houston team is doing, and will always demand change with no research or knowledge of what they are demanding. We see it time and time again, and I think with Kubiak and Smith making the decisions I am perfectly fine with what their evaluations of talent are and why they are making the moves they do.
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Old 12-15-2007   #119
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
Why are you trying to make me throw Sage under a bus when that is not what I'm trying to do.
I'm just saying you can't use what Sage did in Miami as proof of anything, since there hasn't been a successful QB in Miami in a decade.

He's smart, he's poised, and has the ability to win within the context of a team. Which is much better than half the starters in the league today.

My argument, is that he's good trade bait, and I believe there are several GMs who are looking at Sage right now, and thinking about next year.

I doubt anyone will sign him as their starter, but they'll sign him with the intent of letting him compete for a starting job, which is better than what we will offer him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
This is my opinion, but if you look at his numbers, and the kind of games he has, you can tell that he is a decent game manager (somewhat) who will make costly mistakes (Interceptions) if you force him to air out the ball, or complete a lot of passes.
Gee... that sounds like Ben Rothlisberger, Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Tavaris Jackson, Jason Campbell, Chad Pennington, Jay Cutler, & David Garrard.

He's not Peyton Manning(who will throw 6 INTs in a game from time to time), Tom Brady, or Bret Farve.

That's fine, I'd like to have that type of QB, but it's not necessary for a running football team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0ng View Post

He's not making "rookie" mistakes or any of that nonsense, that is just the type of player he is. Somebody who is good for insurance, but not the guy you want to see taking 80% of the offensive snaps in a season.
I know I wish he was taking 100% of our snaps last year, and I bet there are several teams who'd like him to take most of their snaps this year.
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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your statement, but I'm guessing is that it's not Sage's fault that Miami can't see what talent they had, and Houston is making the same mistake.
My statement was simply to point out that no QB was successful in Miami, so you can't say that Sage is a back-up based on what he did in Miami.
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Old 12-15-2007   #120
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassHalfFull View Post
I posted this on another Sage thread earlier today, but feel it is worth repeating on this one:

I have read and watched the Sage threads the last couple of weeks without commenting. Mainly because I have been disgusted with the back and forth crap that has been posted. I want to go on record with the following:

I have been thrilled to see Sage come in and play so well. Thank God we have him and he has been able to perform and get wins the last couple of games.

But I see absolutely no reason to trash Schaub, just because you like what you have seen from Sage. Can't we be happy with our QB situation? It sure is a heck of a lot better than it was last year. Just because you like one player over another, there is NO REASON to villify the other. They are both Texans and I, for one, am glad to have both of them on the team.
Well said and a point being made over and over by many.
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