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Old 12-13-2007   #41
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by HoustonFrog View Post
What are you talking about?I've been a supporter of Sage for 2 years now and because I think Schaub is quality I'm "riding" you?If you concentrated on us winning and not on your own agenda to be "right" you'd actually understand being a real fan. Is it your goal tonight to look totally like an bad fan?I made a comment in the Schaub thread because professional analyst see what alot of us see. It doesn't mean we don't appreciate Sage. Both guys are players and both guys have alot of work to do. Its a good problem to have. You don't have to make up stuff to belittle another player in order to be a fan of another.
No, no, no, no, no.

I AM concentrating on winning...which is exactly why I am quick to assess that Matt Schaub is a smarter, but vastly more fragile, version of David Carr. Where Schaub ends, Sage begins.

Had David Carr been out more, and Sage forced to start the same amount of games he's been starting lately, I wonder if we make the Schaub deal at all. Think on THAT one.

I love to win. And it's why I enjoy rooting for Sage Rosenfels--Because he is winning ballgames. In fact, he's almost willing us to win ballgames even when we seem to be out of them.

I had every belief that Sage would do what he did tonight. But when I watched Schaub earlier this season, I actually began to look for the blitzer (before the snap) and I actually was seeing Schaub getting pounded before it happened. I just knew he was dead meat.

Like I have said: Sage is running rings around Matt Schaub.

But, like it's been said: "Schaub is the starter..."

(Sigh)
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Old 12-13-2007   #42
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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No, no, no, no, no.

I AM concentrating on winning...which is exactly why I am quick to assess that Matt Schaub is a smarter, but vastly more fragile, version of David Carr. Where Schaub ends, Sage begins.

Had David Carr been out more, and Sage forced to start the same amount of games he's been starting lately, I wonder if we make the Schaub deal at all. Think on THAT one.

I love to win. And it's why I enjoy rooting for Sage Rosenfels--Because he is winning ballgames. In fact, he's almost willing us to win ballgames even when we seem to be out of them.

I had every belief that Sage would do what he did tonight. But when I watched Schaub earlier this season, I actually began to look for the blitzer (before the snap) and I actually was seeing Schaub getting pounded before it happened. I just knew he was dead meat.

Like I have said: Sage is running rings around Matt Schaub.

But, like it's been said: "Schaub is the starter..."

(Sigh)
The only comparison between Schaub and Carr is that they are both #8 for the Texans. That is where it ends.
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Old 12-13-2007   #43
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by OzzO View Post
I've been here. And he stuck around Miami for 4 years as 2nd fiddle.

Not saying he should or shouldn't be backup - but is there a possible reason he has been for the 6 years he's been in the nfl?
Derek Anderson would like to talk about this topic.

He was up-and-down in Cleveland. There was Tim Couch, then there was Charlie Frye, then there was Derek, then it was back to Tim, and then it was Derek, and then it was Frye, and over and over and over.

And I guess Derek Anderson just somehow found a way one day.

Kind of like Sage is doing, IMO.

But you go ahead and keep your thumb down on Sage. As I have said, the same old cliches are at work here: "Sage is nothing more than a backup..."

He's a backup who has started three games and has won three games.

And this TEAM that everyone says I don't support...well, they sure seem to click with Sage at the wheel.
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Old 12-13-2007   #44
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
No, you're dishing out the sarcastic little one-liners and pointless gibberish that you call "a post" on this topic.

I see you know where the "sarcasm" smiley is at, because you use it liberally to deride those who say that Matt Schaub should not be this team's starter.

You remind me of me, a long time ago when I propped up David Carr and shouted down the few posters around here who were saying what I am saying now: "The starter who was crowned, in this case Schaub, has not lived up to the expectation." I rode the Carr train all the way to the end, and then it was like I woke up from my stupor..."Wow. He wasn't that good. Oops. I was wrong."

In my posts, I go on to state WHY Matt Schaub is not a quality starter (see my THREE POINTS comments in the myriad of other posts on this topic) and you don't reply to those comments. You just shout it down with your "bandwagon fan" or any other of your endless list of pathetic character assassination hits on me, in order to avoid the arena of ideas.

Congratulations, you've been following football for 30 years. I've been following it for 25. And I still say that Matt Schaub needs no more snaps for me to know that he's not the answer here.
What are you talking about?Seriously. I can see that you were probably one of the people yelling at me when I told you Carr was no good for 3 years. Wouldn't it make more sense that since I was right about him that I may be right about Schaub and being happy with two guys who can win for us?So you screamed for 5 years about Carr, were wrong and now you are screaming about Schaub being bad and a 6 year guy who has never started being "the man" and you think all of a sudden you are right?

I've gone through all of the two guys stats with TexanRed and even went game by game with him thorugh Schaub's starts. Go look it up. They both have similar stats and both have had turnover problems. Schaub impressed me and again, he has impressed many who have watched him. I, unlike you though, don't care much for arguing over guys who are good while we are winning. Maybe Sage is your new Carr. If that is the case watch out. You just admitted you went off on people for years doing the same thing you are doing now. Does that make sense?

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
I had every belief that Sage would do what he did tonight. But when I watched Schaub earlier this season, I actually began to look for the blitzer (before the snap) and I actually was seeing Schaub getting pounded before it happened. I just knew he was dead meat.

Like I have said: Sage is running rings around Matt Schaub.

But, like it's been said: "Schaub is the starter..."

(Sigh)
Then how did our sack totals go down this year if Schaub was so bad in the pocket and was getting hit? Let me quaote something from the ESPN article today

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...ike&id=3142771

Quote:
Pocket awareness separates Schaub from most quarterbacks. His predecessor, David Carr, took 41sacks in 16 starts for Houston last season. Schaub took 16 in his first 11 starts this season.

"Get a running game with him and he's going to be tough," the NFC scout said.
Through all of this you keep missing the point. Sage is good and I like him. I just think Schaub will be our starter and has more upside. Overall it is great to have both. You are barking around the board starting fights over a problem we don't have.
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Last edited by HoustonFrog; 12-13-2007 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 12-13-2007   #45
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
No, you're dishing out the sarcastic little one-liners and pointless gibberish that you call "a post" on this topic.

I see you know where the "sarcasm" smiley is at, because you use it liberally to deride those who say that Matt Schaub should not be this team's starter.

You remind me of me, a long time ago when I propped up David Carr and shouted down the few posters around here who were saying what I am saying now: "The starter who was crowned, in this case Schaub, has not lived up to the expectation." I rode the Carr train all the way to the end, and then it was like I woke up from my stupor..."Wow. He wasn't that good. Oops. I was wrong."

In my posts, I go on to state WHY Matt Schaub is not a quality starter (see my THREE POINTS comments in the myriad of other posts on this topic) and you don't reply to those comments. You just shout it down with your "bandwagon fan" or any other of your endless list of pathetic character assassination hits on me, in order to avoid the arena of ideas.

Congratulations, you've been following football for 30 years. I've been following it for 25. And I still say that Matt Schaub needs no more snaps for me to know that he's not the answer here.

You're like that former smoker who quit and now spends all his time running around getting in other peoples faces about it. Frankly I find it kind of obnoxious. Every thread you're in here banging that drum like you discovered Rosenfels and are hoping to manage him. The guy has won three starts and looked mostly pretty good doing it. He's a gamer and a classic under-appreciated quarterback. Great, good for him. Schaub has played less than a season and mostly looked pretty good doing it. That this year didn't go according to plan is an understatement to say the least and with zero running game through most of the Schaub starts thanks to Ahman Green and his amazing "Now you see it - Now you don't" knee bruise I don't just think you don't have enough information to go on. I know it.

Gary Kubiak will play Rosenfels till the end of the year in all likelyhood. Sage will have a chance to beat the Colts and Jaguars and he'll probably have an opportunity to compete for the starting job in camp. If he wins it I'll be fine with that. If he doesn't I'll be fine with that but I fully expect to see you banging that drum again at the first incomplete pass of the 2008 season. After the last two years of "Texans History" I recognize a zealot when I see one.
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Old 12-13-2007   #46
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by tulexan View Post
The only comparison between Schaub and Carr is that they are both #8 for the Texans. That is where it ends.
Well, I think they are similar yet different:

Carr: Durable and tough; Looks like a QB; Practices well; Cannot read a defense

Schaub: Fragile; Looks like a QB; Practices well; Can read a defense

And then there's Sage: Seems to be durable; Looks like an accountant and doesn't have a QB-sounding name or presence about him; Has been holding a clipboard for a long time; Can read a defense.

I really don't like bragging. Seriously, I don't. But I cannot stand it when I see some posters INTENTIONALLY ignoring things and acting like it's no big deal. Winning is everything, and Sage is winning. So if a fan is all about winning, I'd suggest sitting back for a second and re-evaluating the Matt Schaub situation.

Even if Matt Schaub is healthy, I don't see how he just gets the job back. IMO, you always go with the hot hand. Always. Wins are hard to come by, and Sage is just playing out-of-his mind.

The media are saying "Get Schaub a running game and he'd be tough..." but I just can't shake the feeling I get when I think "Get Sage a running game and he'd be tough."

This is all for naught. Sage is leaving for starting money somewhere. So a lot of Schaub fans can have their crowned hero back next season. I just want to win games, but I see it differently: I see a backup running circles around the starter...and it frustrates me to no end that the starter is always the starter, no matter what.

To heck with that. I like winning, and Sage is winning...and he's smiling and walking upright after those wins, too. I don't have a death wish on Schaub, but it doesn;t take a rocket scientist to see that Matt Schaub is (for some reason) unable to make it through games. And Sage is. Even when healthy, it's only a matter of time before Schaub is going to get steamrolled again.

If that makes me a bad fan, then I'm a bad fan.
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Old 12-13-2007   #47
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
You're like that former smoker who quit and now spends all his time running around getting in other peoples faces about it. Frankly I find it kind of obnoxious. Every thread you're in here banging that drum like you discovered Rosenfels and are hoping to manage him. The guy has won three starts and looked mostly pretty good doing it. He's a gamer and a classic under-appreciated quarterback. Great, good for him. Schaub has played less than a season and mostly looked pretty good doing it. That this year didn't go according to plan is an understatement to say the least and with zero running game through most of the Schaub starts thanks to Ahman Green and his amazing "Now you see it - Now you don't" knee bruise I don't just think you don't have enough information to go on. I know it.

Gary Kubiak will play Rosenfels till the end of the year in all likelyhood. Sage will have a chance to beat the Colts and Jaguars and he'll probably have an opportunity to compete for the starting job in camp. If he wins it I'll be fine with that. If he doesn't I'll be fine with that but I fully expect to see you banging that drum again at the first incomplete pass of the 2008 season. After the last two years of "Texans History" I recognize a zealot when I see one.
Call me a zealot all you want.

But I have bolded a part of your comment (above) and I'd like to go ahead and say that it'd be a minor miracle if Sage makes it to camp as a Texans player.

The guy has shown that he should be the starter for the team he is on. I would think that a guy like Sage, who has been thoroughly trashed with all the "journeyman" comments and the lack of support and faith by most fans for the past few years, is going to look to cash in on the good fortune he;s enjoying this season.

In the NFL, you don't "stay put" unless you "get paid." Please tell me how I am wrong on this idea. A smart guy (like Sage) will force the situation and make Houston pony up the cash for him--no more backup, in other words--or he'll leverage his effort this year and go on to a team like the Chicago Bears who would love to have a QB like Sage on their team.

You don't think Chicago would dump those three clowns they have right now for a guy like Sage who is picking apart defenses, making Champ Bailey look like a clown?

Sage looks great. And a lot of posters continue as if Matt Schaub is set to come back and regain the form he had for HIS three games (Chiefs, Panthers, and Saints). Schaub looked awful vs. Miami...wasn't Kris Brown the one who had to win the Dolphins game for us with all his field goals?

That, coupled with the long rest before his Saints game and then the drop-off game vs. the Titans, tells me that Matt is not a distance runner. For whatever reason, he looks good for a short burst and then he tends to trickle down to a crawl.

This is amazing. I cannot believe that you guys don't see this about Matt Schaub.
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Old 12-13-2007   #48
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
Well, I think they are similar yet different:

Carr: Durable and tough; Looks like a QB; Practices well; Cannot read a defense

Schaub: Fragile; Looks like a QB; Practices well; Can read a defense

And then there's Sage: Seems to be durable; Looks like an accountant and doesn't have a QB-sounding name or presence about him; Has been holding a clipboard for a long time; Can read a defense.

I really don't like bragging. Seriously, I don't. But I cannot stand it when I see some posters INTENTIONALLY ignoring things and acting like it's no big deal. Winning is everything, and Sage is winning. So if a fan is all about winning, I'd suggest sitting back for a second and re-evaluating the Matt Schaub situation.

Even if Matt Schaub is healthy, I don't see how he just gets the job back. IMO, you always go with the hot hand. Always. Wins are hard to come by, and Sage is just playing out-of-his mind.

The media are saying "Get Schaub a running game and he'd be tough..." but I just can't shake the feeling I get when I think "Get Sage a running game and he'd be tough."

This is all for naught. Sage is leaving for starting money somewhere. So a lot of Schaub fans can have their crowned hero back next season. I just want to win games, but I see it differently: I see a backup running circles around the starter...and it frustrates me to no end that the starter is always the starter, no matter what.

To heck with that. I like winning, and Sage is winning...and he's smiling and walking upright after those wins, too. I don't have a death wish on Schaub, but it doesn;t take a rocket scientist to see that Matt Schaub is (for some reason) unable to make it through games. And Sage is. Even when healthy, it's only a matter of time before Schaub is going to get steamrolled again.

If that makes me a bad fan, then I'm a bad fan.
This is where you just get obnoxious. No one is calling Schaub a crowned hero. People like his demeanor and play. People like Sages demeanor and play. The difference between you and I is that I can see the forest through the trees and like both guys but don't think there is anything wrong with Schaub if you go back and look at his play game by game. Your goal is to discredit and be right....probably like you did with Carr. Sorry but if we are going on track records here then you are the Steven A. Smith of this place and are just screaming about guys to nobody. Sorry if I don't just trust your opinion after your admissions above.
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Old 12-13-2007   #49
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
Call me a zealot all you want.

But I have bolded a part of your comment (above) and I'd like to go ahead and say that it'd be a minor miracle if Sage makes it to camp as a Texans player.

The guy has shown that he should be the starter for the team he is on. I would think that a guy like Sage, who has been thoroughly trashed with all the "journeyman" comments and the lack of support and faith by most fans for the past few years, is going to look to cash in on the good fortune he;s enjoying this season.

In the NFL, you don't "stay put" unless you "get paid." Please tell me how I am wrong on this idea. A smart guy (like Sage) will force the situation and make Houston pony up the cash for him--no more backup, in other words--or he'll leverage his effort this year and go on to a team like the Chicago Bears who would love to have a QB like Sage on their team.

You don't think Chicago would dump those three clowns they have right now for a guy like Sage who is picking apart defenses, making Champ Bailey look like a clown?

Sage looks great. And a lot of posters continue as if Matt Schaub is set to come back and regain the form he had for HIS three games (Chiefs, Panthers, and Saints). Schaub looked awful vs. Miami...wasn't Kris Brown the one who had to win the Dolphins game for us with all his field goals?

That, coupled with the long rest before his Saints game and then the drop-off game vs. the Titans, tells me that Matt is not a distance runner. For whatever reason, he looks good for a short burst and then he tends to trickle down to a crawl.

This is amazing. I cannot believe that you guys don't see this about Matt Schaub.
How can anyone take you seriously when you completely leave out the part of of Sage coming in and basically making the Titans game almost a Titan rout with his turnovers BEFORE bringing us back. You can't have one without the other and you are selectively picking games and times without acknowledging others. I mean you just called a 16 of 27 with 200 yards and 1 TD pass and 1 int "picking apart defenses, making Champ Bailey look like a clown?" How can anyone take you seriously?Go look at Schaubs stats and that is a game line, if not better for many games. You are a walking hyperbole and I'm starting to see why talking to "Carr fan" was such an adventure.
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Last edited by HoustonFrog; 12-14-2007 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 12-13-2007   #50
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Default Re: Wow....this is gonna be tough

As Mr. Wolf said on Pulp Fiction, "Let's not start sucking each others..."

You get the point.

There are couple more games to play and let's see what happens.

If there is value, maybe get value for him and he gets another chance to start?

Maybe Rosenfels is a product of the system and Kubiak's coaching?

Unloading Rosenfels may not be as a bad as everyone thinks if Kubiak is as good as a QB coach some people think.

Good opportunity to leverage value to improve the team. Kind of like when Shanahan traded Portis for Bailey. Every one thought he was crazy for doing that.
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Old 12-13-2007   #51
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by HoustonFrog View Post
This is where you just get obnoxious. No one is calling Schaub a crowned hero. People like his demeanor and play. People like Sages demeanor and play. The difference between you and I is that I can see the forest through the trees and like both guys but don't think there is anything wrong with Schaub if you go back and look at his play game by game. Your goal is to discredit and be right....probably like you did with Carr. Sorry but if we are going on track records here then you are the Steven A. Smith of this place and are just screaming about guys to nobody. Sorry if I don't just trust your opinion after your admissions above.
So where is your analysis? Where are YOUR points?

Here's mine:

1. Schaub is fragile. Case closed. I'm not saying he is a bad guy, I am saying that his hit-to-bench ratio is STEEP.

2. He is eerily slow getting away from center, which is causing him to get pancaked by defenders who are getting to him easier than they are getting to Sage. I saw Sage get pressure tonight, and he just kinda' casually pounced forward and flung the ball for a completion to AJ, which would have had different results from Schaub because Schaub would not have even have been all the way back into his stance yet.

3. I saw Sage escape the tackle box and throw it away when we were near the goal line tonight. Schaub is trying to force it, and he's getting hammered...and usually losing the ball while he's at it, or taking us out of realistic TD scoring opportunity. Schaub's ability to know that there's defenders gaining on him, as he escapes the tackle box, is not looking good (IMO).

4. A new revelation I had tonight comes off something Hervoyel mentioned, which I responded to with this: Schaub is not a distance runner. He looks good for short bursts, and then he seems to trickle down to a crawl. His pace slows, his footwork (IMO) gets slower and choppier, making it easier for defenders to get to him. Let's look at this: 1. Chiefs game he looked AWESOME, I admit it. Panthers game he looked a little gassed, IMO, and yet he managed to bring us back from a deficit for the win. The next few games were losses (correct?) and then we win the Miami game...but how did he look? To me, he looked "off." And I think Kris Brown had lots of field goals off of stalled drives, having to win that game for us. Schaub gets knocked out of the Chargers game, once again not looking out for himself or not paying attention to the fact that there are angry men trying to level him for whatever reason, and he comes back to the game looking like the QB he appeared to be during the first game of the season vs. the Chiefs. Then, he exits the Titans game early. Same story, different opponent.

Please tell me, based on the 11 games that Matt Schaub has started vs. the 3 games that Sage has started, HOW and WHY Matt Schaub is a better QB than Sage.

Right now, I just see a lot of people calling me "obnoxious" and yet there's no in-depth ideas coming my way from you guys.
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Old 12-13-2007   #52
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by HoustonFrog View Post
How can anyone take you seriously when you completely leave out the part of of Sage coming in and basically making the Titans game almost a Titan rout with his turnovers BEFORE bringing us back. You can't have one without the other and you are selectively picking games and times without acknowledging others. I mean you just called a 16 of 27 with 200 yards and 1 TD pass and 1 int "picking apart defenses, making Champ Bailey look like a clown?" How can anyone take you seriously?Go look at Schaubs stats and that is a game line, if not better for many games. You are a wakking hyperbole and I'm starting to see why talking to "Carr fan" was such an adventure.
Our defense is not matching up well with this year's Titans offense, which is completely beyond logic and reasoning. Even I don't understand why we cannot stop the Titans. They are getting hosed by all their other opponents...I mean, even the Bengals made them look silly for crying out loud.

Sage did turn the ball over a lot, but let's also not look past the idea that Sage was JUST THEN coming out as the full time guy. I personally believe that it takes a little time (not too long, though) for the oline and the WRs/RBs/TEs to get in "sync" with another QB who just jumps in there suddenly.

This is why, as the full time guy, Sage seems to have this offense clicking. There's not a deal of yanking him out of the lineup because Schaub's ready to go. The o is practicing with Sage, full time, and they have built something over the past 3 or 4 weeks. There's a real chemistry there, IMO.

I honestly do not know why the Titans have our number this year. By all accounts, we should be hammering them. I don;t know if it's the VY thing that has Richard Smith scared and not being aggressive enough to shut them down, but I saw a lot of big time passes completed against us by VY who is not a good passer the rest of the year.
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Old 12-13-2007   #53
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Default Re: Wow....this is gonna be tough

I'd keep Schaub hands down if I have to choose.

Simply because he is younger he still has a lot of learning to do. With Sage you are pretty much getting what you see, with Matt he still has a 7+ yr carreer ahead of him if we get him a solid LT that isn't going to get his career shortened.

IMO the offense looks about the same with Schaub in there except he makes some key mistakes. But also he has played what 3 games with Andre Johnson? Still with Andre out and Schaub in there our passing game was ranked like 6th in the NFL and that is without Andre, and then there were games where we were real thin at WR and still he found open guys.

Schaub is the guy IMO, Sage is a good QB though. I'd be happy for him if he goes elsewhere to play, he deserves to start somewhere, we are just going to have to find another solid backup is all. But I feel Schaub when healthy is our best option.
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Old 12-14-2007   #54
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

Schaub vs MIA (when he was "off")

20/34 (58.8%) 294 YDS 0TD 1INT

Sage vs DEN (when he was decimating Champ Bailey etc. etc.)
16/27 (59.3%) 200 YDS 1TD 1INT

And Matt did that without Andre.

So I ask you, what has Sage done that shows he personally is that much better? And don't just say "he wins." That's a Vincophile excuse. Teams can win because of their QB, regardless of their QB, or in spite of their QB. A TEAM"S WON LOSS RECORD IS NOT DEPENDANT ON ONE PLAYER That's why when you look at QB statistics on nfl.com they don't even list the quarterback's W/L record. It is irrelevant when gauging a QB's play.

The quarterbacks have virtually identical TD/TO ratios, QB ratings, completion percentage... basically every statistic one uses to gauge QB play has these two dead even. So why exactly is Sage clearly that much better?
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Old 12-14-2007   #55
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Default Re: Wow....this is gonna be tough

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Originally Posted by adam View Post
To compare Matt Schaub to Carson Palmer is a little much isn't it? Matt Schaub has a lot of problems to get worked out before he is going to be a fantastic NFL QB. Not to say that he'll never be great, but I simply believe that Rosenfels has done more for this team than Schaub has and I think it would be a shame to see Sage go (because he definitely deserves to be starting somewhere) because some bonehead in the FO doesn't want to accept the fact that we probably invested too much into Schaub.
I think this also includes some fans who also don't want to face the music on this issue, as well.

It't so much more convenient to support the incumbent rather than to climb out on a limb and say something different.

This is exactly what it boils down to: Admitting that we blew two 2nd round picks and made a big hullabaloo about a backup (Schaub) when we probably had our own backup (Sage) all along who could have led this team.

Which is why sooooo many posters here got their panties in a wad when Haynesworth made the comments about Schaub/Sage last game between us. I didn't rag Haynesworth for it because, while it WAS tasteless for him to say it, you have to tip your hat to him for having the guts to say what's only proving to become the truth: We took a risk and it didn't work.

That's the ballgame, though. Risks don't always pay off.

I just hope we make it clear to Sage and Schaub that they will battle it out in camp for the starting role. Anything less would be uncivilized.
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Old 12-14-2007   #56
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

Let's break down wins and losses a little more finely here:

I see Schaub as 4-6: the wins coming over KC, Carolina, Miami and NO. The losses being Indy, Atlanta, Jacksonville, the first Tennessee game, San Diego and Cleveland. I'm not giving him the loss in the second Titan game because we were tied when he went out (sort of akin to a pitcher). Sage took the field with the game tied, and we lost it.

But let's break this down a little further: with Andre Johnson, Schaub is 3-1. Without him, he went 1-5. We're just not a good team without AJ--and a running game.

Schaub will improve--in his first year as a (split-time) starter in college, he went 0-5. The next year, he was the ACC player of the year over Philip Rivers (well, beating out Rivers was more impressive in 2002 than it is now, admittedly).

The fact of the matter is that the team is now making huge strides. The two west coast games saw the emergence of a defense and a running game. Sage is a good QB who is certainly not inhibiting that progress, and we're very lucky to have him. But I'm pretty sure I've seen more Schaub passes than anyone on this board (unless someone else here is also a Wahoo), and I have complete faith that he is our guy. Of course, that kind of "pulling rank" won't satisfy anyone on this board.

As for Schaub's penchant for taking big hits--recall the first TD pass he threw against Carolina. Got absolutely walloped but got a nice pass out to AJ down the field that he turned into a TD. That's the kind of plays he makes. What that means is that we'll need a solid backup for him, and I'm thrilled we have Sage to fill that role.

[Edit because I forgot the bottom line] BOTTOM LINE: The above notwithstanding, I think a healthy Sage should start while Schaub is hurt/hurting these last few games, especially given the run the team is on. No sense in messing with success. But the Texans have too much invested in Matt not to presume that he is the starter for 2008--provided, of course, Sage doesn't clearly beat him out in the preseason.
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Old 12-14-2007   #57
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Default Re: Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.

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Originally Posted by Dan B. View Post
Schaub vs MIA (when he was "off")

20/34 (58.8%) 294 YDS 0TD 1INT

Sage vs DEN (when he was decimating Champ Bailey etc. etc.)
16/27 (59.3%) 200 YDS 1TD 1INT

And Matt did that without Andre.

So I ask you, what has Sage done that shows he personally is that much better? And don't just say "he wins." That's a Vincophile excuse. Teams can win because of their QB, regardless of their QB, or in spite of their QB. A TEAM"S WON LOSS RECORD IS NOT DEPENDANT ON ONE PLAYER That's why when you look at QB statistics on nfl.com they don't even list the quarterback's W/L record. It is irrelevant when gauging a QB's play.

The quarterbacks have virtually identical TD/TO ratios, QB ratings, completion percentage... basically every statistic one uses to gauge QB play has these two dead even. So why exactly is Sage clearly that much better?
Well, I think Kris Brown was kickig long field goals all day because drives were stalling just past mid-field.

But I recall Sage leading us down to the goal line a lot tonight. Somebody has to get the team down there, and someone has to be "clutch" and not piss away the chance at a TD.

Sage was efficient. Had Denver not sustained long drives all night, mostly via Bradon Marshall on nice gains at crucial moments to sustains a drive, the score might have been even more lopsided.

Look, I am less of a stat guy...and I'm more of a perception guy. I see this offense, and its role players, looking a lot more in rhythm and operating at a better pace than I did with Schaub as the starter. I also see a defense who is pinning its ears back and making BIG PLAYS, which CAN be attributed to having Demps and Bennett coming along nicely, but has also got to be partly due to a Texans offense scoring points and allowing the defense to take chances more.

Simply put, I just feel that outside of the Chiefs game and the Saints game, Schaub has not exactly looked like a world champ (to me). I have said that it might be due to him being a first-year starter who is perhaps a little under-developed (especially pertaining to physical fitness and endurance) but yet I see a few other things that are more of just part of Schaub's style, which I don't see getting better all of a sudden.
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Old 12-14-2007   #58
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Default Re: Wow....this is gonna be tough

It has nothing to do with "supporting the incumbent instead of climbing out on a limb" and everything to do with not being hotheaded and jumping to conclusions.

Sage has been in the league 7 years and has never been elevated above the role of backup. He has looked "good" but you are ready to throw out a young QB who has also looked good so that we can start an old QB who has never looked good until now, and has made just as many, if not more, mistakes as the younger QB.

Why? Because he has 3 wins. His stats are not amazing, his physical abilities are not amazing, and his wins have been nice, but not incredible.. the only thing Sage has that Schaub doesnt is a lack of losses and a clean bill of health. You could have said the same about Young last year for the Titans and that doesnt seem to be panning out too well for them this year, does it?

I am willing to discuss and consider the possibilities of what we can do with Sage, but to sit here and act like we have just discovered a gold mine and Schaub is no longer needed... that is just stupid.

Please..for the love of god.. open your eyes and consider all the facts. Quit trying to win the argument and start thinking about what is best for the team.

I honestly think you are more interested in establishing yourself as a Sage lover, so that you can say "I LOVED HIM FIRST!" if he becomes a superstar for us, than you are in doing what is best for the team.
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Old 12-14-2007   #59
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Default Re: Wow....this is gonna be tough

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Originally Posted by Grid View Post
It has nothing to do with "supporting the incumbent instead of climbing out on a limb" and everything to do with not being hotheaded and jumping to conclusions.

Sage has been in the league 7 years and has never been elevated above the role of backup. He has looked "good" but you are ready to throw out a young QB who has also looked good so that we can start an old QB who has never looked good until now, and has made just as many, if not more, mistakes as the younger QB.

Why? Because he has 3 wins. His stats are not amazing, his physical abilities are not amazing, and his wins have been nice, but not incredible.. the only thing Sage has that Schaub doesnt is a lack of losses and a clean bill of health. You could have said the same about Young last year for the Titans and that doesnt seem to be panning out too well for them this year, does it?

I am willing to discuss and consider the possibilities of what we can do with Sage, but to sit here and act like we have just discovered a gold mine and Schaub is no longer needed... that is just stupid.

Please..for the love of god.. open your eyes and consider all the facts. Quit trying to win the argument and start thinking about what is best for the team.

I honestly think you are more interested in establishing yourself as a Sage lover, so that you can say "I LOVED HIM FIRST!" if he becomes a superstar for us, than you are in doing what is best for the team.
I can see where people would think it, but it's not based on truth.

In fact, I giggled at Sage Lovers for the past few years. I didn't even bother posting on those threads because I thought the idea was lame. If anything, I have felt (in the past) that Sage WAS "just a good backup," a guy good enough to come in and keep the damage relatively low.

But I also began too wonder why Kubiak kept him these past two years. Why did we not go after a more suitable guy who might be able to be AS GOOD a quarterback as Sage...but with the upside of being a potential starter.

That's when I perked up (over this past off-season) and finally willed myself to believe that maybe there's a very good reason that Kubiak has locked Sage down as the true No. 2 QB on our team. Although I couldn;t see it in my mind's eye--because Carr was never really OUT of games enough to see Sage in long-term situations--I had to just trust that he was here for more than backup duty.

I mean, did you SEE the look of intensity on Kubiak's face at about 1:32 left in the fourth quarter? I've seen him smile at then end of a won game, but I have never seen the guy look like he did tonight. And the camera panning over to a smiling Sage Rosenfels, with a bandage on his chin, and the guys cutting up with him, well...it was a pretty fitting picture IMO.

Nah, I want this team to win. And I don't see it happening with Schaub as the all-out starter just as soon as he's ready to go for us.

Look, I've posted my points as to WHY I feel the way I feel.

If Schaub DOES get the job done, then that's great. It really is. And I will have been wrong, and I will willfully admit so. I did the same thing when I saw that my defense of David Carr for 4 1/2 years was wrong--I admitted to ALL OF YOU on the boards that I was wrong.

Just ask yourself this:

"Which Texans team have I enjoyed watching more: Schaub's Texans team or Sage's Texans team?"

I have felt a lot better about this TEAM when Sage has been the starter and has thus been able to really have this team under his leadership for long stretches of time.

Done.

Hopefully a lot of you DO see my heart on this.
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Old 12-14-2007   #60
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Default Re: Wow....this is gonna be tough

Sage might as well finish out this season as the starter. You cant take him out if he hasnt lost a game. Sage has earned the start for these last two matches, and next season I think the QBs should compete in camp for the starting spot.
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