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Old 12-03-2007   #101
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
You are making Schaub out to be a scapegoat. Going into a season with Sage and nobody would have been a laughable plan. When the team had a chance to be honest with themselves and not extend Carr to the max and draft a big strong QB they passed. We now have a workable tandem till the rest of the team is built. You can get all bent over the Schaub deal but the QB situation is fine with both of those guys here for now. Sure they should have drafted Culter or Young, but we can't do anything about that and they did the right thing in bringing in Schaub since he brought some credible QB'ing to the franchise (it's almost impossible to win in the NFL with bad quarterbacking...just look at our old teams and the Panthers). This team can win with those guys but won't ever win with the many holes in the roster we see today. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if we had Boyd start in a couple of years.....but I don't regret making the Schaub deal even if he was hurt a few times this season. Schaub is still a young QB in my eyes and the jury is out, but he deserves another camp and another shot to lead the team when it has more players.
Not trying to make Schaub out to be a scape goat. Carr had to go I don't disagree with that.

The question comes down to, was Schaub worth what we paid? Now keep in mind I am not only comparing his play but also his ability to stay healthy. I said it many posts back, you can be the greatest QB ever but if your not on the field it means nothing.

Also, IMO, when Sage comes into the game I do not see the play from our QB go up or down. So to me that says we already had our replacement for Carr without having to give anything up. With our second round pick the Falcons picked up Chris Houston, a position that was and is in a desperate need of attention.

If Schaub would have been able to start all 16 games I might not feel the way I do now. Its the fact that he has only 17 sacks playing 10 games. Out of that he has been knocked out 3 times and kept out of 1.

He is like a heavy weight fighter who can't stay off the mat.
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Old 12-03-2007   #102
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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Originally Posted by Mailman View Post
I don't agree with this sentiment at all. The team that started off 2-0 and played Indy tough is not the same team we're seeing now. I think it's unfair to compare the 2007 Texans with last year's team considering the way the surgeon's scalpel has gutted the roster.

You are assuming that with all those injuries, the Texans would have won if those guys played in those games.

There are only 2 injuries I would concede were very determinental, AJ and Dunta.

The two victories at the beginning of the year were against teams that are not very good.

My opinion, you are just making excuses. Sure, injuries hurt, but that doesn't mean the Texans were going to win anyway. Please tell me, what other teams are going start McKinney, Weary, Pitts, and Salem anyway?

There is a bigger picture to look at.

For the record, I think Schaub can be a good QB, but probably not for the situation he was brought into with the Texans.
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Old 12-03-2007   #103
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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Originally Posted by TEXANRED View Post
The question comes down to, was Schaub worth what we paid? Now keep in mind I am not only comparing his play but also his ability to stay healthy. I said it many posts back, you can be the greatest QB ever but if your not on the field it means nothing.

Also, IMO, when Sage comes into the game I do not see the play from our QB go up or down. So to me that says we already had our replacement for Carr without having to give anything up. With our second round pick the Falcons picked up Chris Houston, a position that was and is in a desperate need of attention.
Very valid points and I agree with your discussion.

What you posted there, were my exact concerns regarding trading for Schaub. It was too expensive considering the situation.
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Old 12-03-2007   #104
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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BTW, you will never be happy with our QB if Manning and Brady are your standards of comparison.
Winning makes me happy and is the standard that I compare the QB to. Your signature says it best, 29-63.

I learned my leason from the Carr years, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, its a probably a duck.(I know thats cheese, couldn't help it.)
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Old 12-03-2007   #105
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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Note to TEXANRED: 30 other teams are unhappy with their QBs when comparing them to Manning and Brady.

You said it yourself: "Hell even Gafney is open..." What could possibly be giving Gaffney enough time to get open? Oh yeah, protection.

BTW, you will never be happy with our QB if Manning and Brady are your standards of comparison.
So true.

Schaub is the best QB that the Texans have fielded. He has helped our WR corps grow more than I ever saw with Carr. He helps cut down on sacks because of his quick timing. He still doesn't have a full season starting under his belt. How many games has he started now? Not very many, yet he throws for a good average and completes a good percentage of his passes. Wait until he gets really settled down, behind a line that he can feel confident behind.
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Old 12-03-2007   #106
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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Boyd is on the practice squad, correct?

That means ANY team can sign him away from us.

Doesn't look to promising, IMO, to see him on this team in 2-3 years. it would take BOTH of our QBs getting hurt simultaneously.

I really liked watching Boyd when we played the Cardinals in the preseason. He was moving the ball down the field with his arm AND his legs.

We're soooooooo far away from being a good team. It's almost depressing just thinking about how many moves it takes for us to jump up to playoff contender.
I'm just using him as an example in calling for patience with the situation and how guys like Tony Romo or Johnny Unitas rise from the back of the pack (Johnny U was cut from the Steelers) sometimes. Sure enough Boyd won't work out and even make the team next year but things are going on deep in the back of the complex so I guess I'm just saying not to forget these guys. I'm using big name comparison as extreme examples but I think Schaub has played well for a first year starter and if he can get past this injury thing he will be fine. If not we have TEXANRED's Rosenfels-at-QB plan as an acceptable Gifford Neilson style back up plan.
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Old 12-03-2007   #107
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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Originally Posted by TEXANRED View Post
I learned my leason from the Carr years, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, its a probably a duck.(I know thats cheese, couldn't help it.)
Your taking this too far now. Schaub is not Carr. Schaub has the talent, tools, and probably the work ethic to be a good QB.

However, he is not overwhelmingly talented to carry a team if it a has to slide 2 spots in the first round from 8 to 10 and give up two 2nd round draft picks to get him due to the talent issue on the team.
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Old 12-03-2007   #108
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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Originally Posted by TEXANRED View Post
If Schaub would have been able to start all 16 games I might not feel the way I do now. Its the fact that he has only 17 sacks playing 10 games. Out of that he has been knocked out 3 times and kept out of 1.

He is like a heavy weight fighter who can't stay off the mat.
Bro, Schaub got body slammed by Albert Haynesworth, who by the way has gotten alot of media attention for his play this year. He got cheap shotted by a Charger in the head. Concussion. You act like he got touched and he crumpled to the ground. This last game was just one of those where it looked like he just fell on it wrong. Everybody gets injured. Unlucky season for him, behind a line with mostly washed up veterans.
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Old 12-03-2007   #109
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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Not trying to make Schaub out to be a scape goat. Carr had to go I don't disagree with that.

The question comes down to, was Schaub worth what we paid? Now keep in mind I am not only comparing his play but also his ability to stay healthy. I said it many posts back, you can be the greatest QB ever but if your not on the field it means nothing.

Also, IMO, when Sage comes into the game I do not see the play from our QB go up or down. So to me that says we already had our replacement for Carr without having to give anything up. With our second round pick the Falcons picked up Chris Houston, a position that was and is in a desperate need of attention.

If Schaub would have been able to start all 16 games I might not feel the way I do now. Its the fact that he has only 17 sacks playing 10 games. Out of that he has been knocked out 3 times and kept out of 1.

He is like a heavy weight fighter who can't stay off the mat.
Did you ever think that Sage is good when he can come in as a backup to do what he has to or chunk it around because we are already behind? He did the same in Miami and other places and then failed as a starter when given the chance. The backup is always the most popular guy. Schaub still performed better than Sage. People seem to see TDs when we are behind and forget his ints too.

BTW, why do people keep equating sacks to injuries?If you release the ball 30 times a game and get driven to the turf or hit 25 of them and there are no recorded sacks, you are still getting hit. The hurt doesn't go away and it doesn't make the protection any better for you.

You keep dancing around different arguments...like the ones saying Brady and others have open receivers because they have all day to throw. Then you change and make it about the injuries...another protection issue. Then you say people blame protection when these SB Bs have laser arms and can hit receivers. I mean which argument in this circle is it?
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Old 12-03-2007   #110
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

surprised Kubiak released Craig Nall seemd like he had upside, not just a career back-up. now I'd run into a to have him back.
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Old 12-03-2007   #111
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

I am kind of thinking about this situation financially. I'm all for giving the guy more time to prove what he can accomplish, but at what cost? If there is an "out" in the contract does he only get the guaranteed $$$. If he is traded then you possibly get a good draft pick and you don't risk the chance of paying a potential career backup - starter money. If you give him another year to prove himself, do we then have to eat the whole contract? I'm just wondering if anyone knows more about the money side of the deal?

I think this has been good discussion, but we will keep Schaub in my opinon because I think Kubiak's cart is tied to this horse. Let's just hope he continues to improve as we fill the holes on the roster with great talent before he develops the CARR syndrome (Combusted After Repeated Ransacking).

Hopefully we use all our draft picks next year on O-linemen and a running back and we fill other holes in free agency.
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Old 12-03-2007   #112
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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luckily there are tons of good quarterbacks just lying around out there so it'll be very easy to replace him.


Yep, let's start reeling'em in!!!!
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Old 12-03-2007   #113
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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surprised Kubiak released Craig Nall seemd like he had upside, not just a career back-up. now I'd run into a to have him back.
He had his strong suits, but was said to be terrible in practice. If we IR Schaub (which I think we will), we should probably promote Shane Boyd. He has a good enough arm and is wonderful on his feet (which is always a plus with our o-line).
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Old 12-03-2007   #114
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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Great franchises also have great offensive lines. Period. End of story.

Put Brady or Manning behind our current line, and I'd be willing to be that they would not have the success that they have with their teams. Matter of fact, I have no doubts that they would struggle, as well.

Win the battle of the trenches, and even mediocre QBs can make plays. It's football fundamentals.
THIS IS WHAT I WAS SAYING B4 THE SCHAUB TRADE.
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Old 12-03-2007   #115
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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You keep dancing around different arguments...like the ones saying Brady and others have open receivers because they have all day to throw. Then you change and make it about the injuries...another protection issue. Then you say people blame protection when these SB Bs have laser arms and can hit receivers. I mean which argument in this circle is it?
I think you are getting your posts mixed up, I say player X is great and others come back with "Well there line is a wall."

It is about the injuries, that is my chief concern. He got hurt in the third week of the season and has been hurt ever since. Some guys are just tougher than others.

Plus he has just played average. 9 TDs. 19th in the league tied with Huard, and Griese.

So right now we have ourselves an injury prone average QB.
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Old 12-03-2007   #116
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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So true.

Schaub is the best QB that the Texans have fielded. He has helped our WR corps grow more than I ever saw with Carr. He helps cut down on sacks because of his quick timing. He still doesn't have a full season starting under his belt. How many games has he started now? Not very many, yet he throws for a good average and completes a good percentage of his passes. Wait until he gets really settled down, behind a line that he can feel confident behind.
That's a pretty weak argument considering that the only QB's the Texans have fielded by choice (not because of an injury) have been Carr and Schaub. Schaub is certainly superior to Carr. Hell, Sage would have been an improvement on Carr. Being better than Carr is not really much of an accomplishment.
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Old 12-03-2007   #117
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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I'm just using him as an example in calling for patience with the situation and how guys like Tony Romo or Johnny Unitas rise from the back of the pack (Johnny U was cut from the Steelers) sometimes. Sure enough Boyd won't work out and even make the team next year but things are going on deep in the back of the complex so I guess I'm just saying not to forget these guys. I'm using big name comparison as extreme examples but I think Schaub has played well for a first year starter and if he can get past this injury thing he will be fine. If not we have TEXANRED's Rosenfels-at-QB plan as an acceptable Gifford Neilson style back up plan.
I am just having a hard time trusting the moves that we make.

Boselli. Carr. Buchanon. Gado. And now, Matt Schaub.

These are all guys who were brought in to "firm up" a weak area which needs to be solid for us to do well in the NFL, and yet we're no better off after the deal.

Kubiak hit pay-dirt with Charles Spencer, so I'll give him that one. Mario might end up being OK. Amobi is faring well for an interior rookie lineman. But the secondary is a complete joke. If Fred Bennett is the future, then we got a problem. I don't see nearly as much of a future for him as I think we could see from Dunta (the quickness, the toughness, the knack for being near the ball all the time).

We need a HOME RUN of a draft. We need that much-talked-about free'd up cap space to be used to the last penny on STAR QUALITY players at key positions, and we need Bob's wallet to open up for quality assistants if Gary Kubiak is to have any chance at all.

Then I'll buy into the idea of watching the "moves which are being made in the complex."

I am severely underwhelmed by Bob McNearly.
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Old 12-04-2007   #118
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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I am just having a hard time trusting the moves that we make.

Boselli. Carr. Buchanon. Gado. And now, Matt Schaub.

These are all guys who were brought in to "firm up" a weak area which needs to be solid for us to do well in the NFL, and yet we're no better off after the deal.

Kubiak hit pay-dirt with Charles Spencer, so I'll give him that one. Mario might end up being OK. Amobi is faring well for an interior rookie lineman. But the secondary is a complete joke. If Fred Bennett is the future, then we got a problem. I don't see nearly as much of a future for him as I think we could see from Dunta (the quickness, the toughness, the knack for being near the ball all the time).

We need a HOME RUN of a draft. We need that much-talked-about free'd up cap space to be used to the last penny on STAR QUALITY players at key positions, and we need Bob's wallet to open up for quality assistants if Gary Kubiak is to have any chance at all.

Then I'll buy into the idea of watching the "moves which are being made in the complex."

I am severely underwhelmed by Bob McNearly.
I am with ya, man except I will give Bennett a little love as he is a rookie and shouldnt even be out there. He has gotten burned but he has also made some plays and that is just about what you are looking for out of a rookie CB.

Everything else I think you are spot on. We gotta get some TOP TIER players at some key positions and we have to get some better coaching and if Kubiak can't make that happen then we need to get a head coach who can put together a quality coaching staff because currently its an embarassment.

Rushing 3 DL against VY on 3rd and Long is just ridiculous. How many times do you see like 2 or 3 players in the middle of the field covering NO ONE with our defense. Just pathetic philosophy and a complete disaster. Richard Smith should be fired the morning after the season ends. Get to work early on securing a quality replacement and spare no expense. Spend the $$$.
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Old 12-04-2007   #119
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
I am just having a hard time trusting the moves that we make.

Boselli. Carr. Buchanon. Gado. And now, Matt Schaub.

These are all guys who were brought in to "firm up" a weak area which needs to be solid for us to do well in the NFL, and yet we're no better off after the deal.
nooooo... Boselli was an expansion draft guy and Carr was our first EVER pick - one was damaged goods and the other was waaay over-rated. Point is, since they came in year one of our franchise, how could they "firm up a weak area" that didn't exist??

I'm not sure if Buchanon was a dumb move or a bad fit. I say "bad fit" because he seems to be doing well under Gruden in TB. And TB prides itself on a keeping a good defense so if he wasn't bringing something to the table Gruden would kick him to the curb.

Gado was a desperation move (just like Ron Dayne was) made when we figured out Domanick wasn't ever going to play again. You might have noticed that the guy we traded for Gado isn't really contributing either. I'd call that trade a lose/lose because neither team got any sustained value from it.

Schaub is the only guy of those you listed that actually fits the catagory of "brought in to be a positional upgrade". And considering who he replaced, I'd say he fits that bill.

Now did we need him bad enough to give up two first day picks while we were in rebuild mode? That's a different question. As I keep saying, while he's two picks better than Carr, I'm not convinced he's two picks better than Sage.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
Kubiak hit pay-dirt with Charles Spencer, so I'll give him that one. Mario might end up being OK. Amobi is faring well for an interior rookie lineman. But the secondary is a complete joke. If Fred Bennett is the future, then we got a problem. I don't see nearly as much of a future for him as I think we could see from Dunta (the quickness, the toughness, the knack for being near the ball all the time).
I find it interesting that even though Charles Spencer has only played two games in two years but he's a "home run". How come he's not a "glass boy" or "injury prone"? At the most he should have the same "incomplete" that some folks are giving Schaub.

Our secondary needs improvement; doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to see that. But ease up on Fred Bennett; he is a ROOKIE. He will get better.
When Dunta was drafted we already had two of the best CBs in the league at the time in Marcus Coleman and Pro Bowler Aaron Glenn (made the Pro Bowl with the Texans no less!). My point is that Dunta, as a rookie, had two of the best in the league at their positions to watch and learn from. Who does Bennett get to watch? Petey Faggins. Its a wonder the kid can cover at all.

But I have to I agree, in its present state, the secondary is somewhat sad. Just ease up off of Freddy B. I think that if Dunta comes back to his old self and Bennett isn't totally scarred for life from the Faggins influence , we should have a decent set of CBs. Not as good as Glenn & Coleman but pretty good.
Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing us draft a true, ball-hawking FS in the upcoming draft. Because we have a bunch of SS trying to play FS and its not working. I am curious to see if Brandon Harrison pans out at all. I wouldn't bet on it. He got to camp late (some silly NCAA rule) then got hurt. He has a big incomplete IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
We need a HOME RUN of a draft. We need that much-talked-about free'd up cap space to be used to the last penny on STAR QUALITY players at key positions, and we need Bob's wallet to open up for quality assistants if Gary Kubiak is to have any chance at all.
That's one thing I'll agree with; we need to make some changes starting with the defensive coordinator. A new O-line coach wouldn't hurt either.

And I'll argue that the '06 draft WAS a home run.. Think about it. If you get two or three quality players out of your seven rounds, that's usually a good draft. We got five.
Ryans (interesting that you neglected to list the Rookie of the Year among Kubiak's moves)
Daniels (or him)
Winston (...or him)
Williams
Spencer (by your evaluation)

The jury is still out on the 07 class but I'd say it gets at least a B-
Okoye, J. Jones, Bennett, & Zack Diles
All have contributed positively.
Studdard, Frye, Brandon Harrison
Jury is still out because all three got hurt in camp and have yet to see any playing time.

But again, four keepers out of seven picks. Not bad. Maybe not a "home run" but surely a ground rule double.
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Old 12-04-2007   #120
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Default Re: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

Sorry, couldn't help but notice that you said Zac Diles contributed. What has he done so far, I haven't seen or heard of him much since he was drafted.
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