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Old 01-10-2012   #481
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
They can't franchise tag him. He would cost $17 million against the cap. There is no way they can afford to do that. It is simply not possible.
You sound an awful lot like a certain not-so-liked Chronicle reporter before we went after Asomugha. Remember-- the Jets went into last offseason with not much cap room to speak of, signed Holmes to a $50 million deal and then had the cheese to sign Nnamdi.

The salary cap is a funny thing, and has been worked many different ways in the past. I would not be surprised in the least if the Texans worked a few contracts in a way that allowed us to franchise Mario and sign Foster. I'm not saying that's what I prefer to happen, but I've learned in the past that assuming things about the cap can be rather pointless.
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Old 01-10-2012   #482
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
I will settle for 2nd if MW's $$$$ are spent on an impact WR/CB/OG.

I'm interesed in seeing what Braman can do next yr. He's got unreal god given ability. In addition to adding more depth in the draft.

BTW, I'm glad that everybody that thought the defense was going to stink without MW was wrong. The #2 defense without MW speaks volumes to MW's value to this team. If MW is willing to sign on the cheap (he wont) then I'm all for re-signing him. Otherwise I would let him walk. If he re-signed I also wouldn't just give him his old job back. He would have to earn it like most of the other guys on the team.

And no I'm not a MW hater. I just dont think the Texans have missed MW very much if at all.
And what about the first few weeks without Foster? Did it say volumes about what Foster is worth?

No, but it was a few people who thought Foster was 'replaceable' because Tate played well. Now that Foster is healthy and beasting out there no one would dare say that. Tate was the guy that was getting stuffed last Saturday...Imagine if we didn't have Foster and just Tate for that Bengals game...

The same applies here. Just because the defense has been great without Mario doesn't mean they aren't BETTER with him. It's not like when Mario was on the field the defense sucked. If anything the front 7 got great pressure when he was on the field.

Also Reed is taking Barwin's old spot. Barwin is the guy who has actually replaced Mario.

I dunno bout anyone else but Mario, Cushing, Ryans, and Barwin sounds like the best group of LBs in the NFL. Not mind that Reed and Sharpton (still have faith in that guy) can sub in and out and keep guys fresh.
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Old 01-10-2012   #483
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by VTexan View Post
We will sign Arian to a big time contract and franchise Mario.. as a linebacker
His franchise tag will still be $17 million, because anyone tagged is guaranteed a 20% increase over the previous season.
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Old 01-10-2012   #484
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by Allstar View Post
You sound an awful lot like a certain not-so-liked Chronicle reporter before we went after Asomugha. Remember-- the Jets went into last offseason with not much cap room to speak of, signed Holmes to a $50 million deal and then had the cheese to sign Nnamdi.

The salary cap is a funny thing, and has been worked many different ways in the past. I would not be surprised in the least if the Texans worked a few contracts in a way that allowed us to franchise Mario and sign Foster. I'm not saying that's what I prefer to happen, but I've learned in the past that assuming things about the cap can be rather pointless.
First of all, signing Holmes and bidding on Asomugha is much different. Any deal can be manipulated and back-ended to make it relatively inexpensive in the short term. Franchise tags are quite different. That number is a hard number. Remember, the Texans are right up against the cap and had to reconfigure contracts to get Manning and Joseph done. They can get a little relief by extending Schaub but they also have guys like Myers, Dreessen, Duane Brown, not to mention Foster (whom they promised a new deal after this season) that they need to re-sign or extend for numbers north of their previous deals.

If the Texans are going to keep Mario, they will have to sign him to a long term deal. I would love to keep Mario via the franchise tag but it's not plausible. It's cut him loose or pay him for another 5 or 6 years. That is the only decision to make if the franchise number everyone is reporting for him is close to accurate.
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Old 01-10-2012   #485
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Default Re: Mario Williams

On another board a poster said he read from an insider on twitter a few weeks back that you can no longer franchise a player then trade them, per the new cba rules.......has anyone else heard about this or have a link so I can search? I know someone posted the CBA agreement on here before, so can someone link me to it again please.....
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Old 01-10-2012   #486
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Default Re: Mario Williams

Re: The Mario Issue, Let's look at it in another way

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by gafftop 4/19/11
Simplified possible Mario outcomes next season:
1. Plays good when healthy but has some type of nagging injury as last two years
2. Does not adapt to 3-4.
3. Plays great in his contract year

In 1 we get probably nothing or do we get compensation because we do not sign as we did with Dunta. Last pick in draft. LOL

In 2 same as 1

In 3, do you want to give Mario say 20+ million for the next 5 years based on his last year of performance. Say the cap is 120 million. If you divide in half, half for offense and half for defense, do you really want to give Mario 33% of all money for defense? I sure don't. DO YOU?

In reality probably no player is worth that large of % of cap. Maybe Peyton or Brady etc QBs of that caliber may be the only position that warrants that and even then it is a crap shoot because of injury.

The above is why I think IF you can get a good deal in a trade this year you do it.

It is very likely that other teams view Mario in the same way and will give nothing for him this year. I don't know. But if there are teams out that that covet him I think it should seriously be considered by the Texans.

I don't think Aso is a good deal based on reasoning above.
Just my opinion. "

12/20/11 Update on Mario situation

Here we are almost exactly 8 months from the above post. Took a lot of negative hits from this thread I started. Here we are now and where do we stand? It was my feeling that no matter what happened we would be in a bad place with Mario once the season was over.

I am reading on other threads that we trade Mario now for this and/or that. Someone please explain how we do this? Isn't he a free agent? I think we missed our chance to get something of value for MW. I still thinks he WALKS with us getting nothing but the PITY pick/consolation pick/Dunta pick etc.

Why do I think we get nothing? I don't think we can " non-exclusive " franchise and expect anyone to offer anything for Mario if it means them giving up high round draft choices. I don't think we outright franchise him because he is not worth what we would need to pay him. We can transition tag him but correct me if I am wrong, if we don't match we get nothing.

Anyone watch the game last night. Anyone see Aldon Smith. Anyone think Mario is better. I am sure there are.

Somebody make me feel better and explain how we come out of this deal whole.

I can't help but think where this team would be now if a trade would have been made and we had a real 1b WR and another real CB.

The great teams stay great by always increasing overall talent VALUE. We will lose overall value if we keep Mario or we lose overall value if we let Mario walk.

I really am ecstatic with the Texans season. It may not seem like that but I am. I just have this feeling that we could be a whole lot better if a trade was made.

You asked for it and there it is.

I think the outcome of this Mario situation will be a major factor in the future of the Texans. I think the best outcome has passed us by. That being trading him while we still had rights. We rolled the dice but my feelings were they would come up snake eyes no matter what in reference to long term. Our best situation would have been for him to play like Bruce Smith and stay healthy and help us go deep in playoffs .

Someone again please explain how we trade him and get something for him in the off season. I am just not seeing it.

1/10/12
Tired of rehashing this issue, so I just copy what was posted 9 months ago in the top section of this post.

Go Texans.
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Old 01-10-2012   #487
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Default Re: Mario Williams

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
I will settle for 2nd if MW's $$$$ are spent on an impact WR/CB/OG.

I'm interesed in seeing what Braman can do next yr. He's got unreal god given ability. In addition to adding more depth in the draft.

BTW, I'm glad that everybody that thought the defense was going to stink without MW was wrong. The #2 defense without MW speaks volumes to MW's value to this team. If MW is willing to sign on the cheap (he wont) then I'm all for re-signing him. Otherwise I would let him walk. If he re-signed I also wouldn't just give him his old job back. He would have to earn it like most of the other guys on the team.

And no I'm not a MW hater. I just dont think the Texans have missed MW very much if at all.
I don't think too many people thought our defense was goin to suck without Mario Williams I'm one of the biggest "keep Mario" proponents & I've never thought our defense would suck without Mario.

But to this day, I think we would ave a better defense with Mario than without. Yes, I think we would have the #1 defense with Mario, by a good margin.

Next year when we play more competent offenses, like Greenbay, Detroit, Chicago, New England, Miami... A better Colts team, Jags, & TItans... I'd rather have that extra edge rusher.
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Old 01-10-2012   #488
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Default Re: Mario Williams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allstar View Post
You sound an awful lot like a certain not-so-liked Chronicle reporter before we went after Asomugha. Remember-- the Jets went into last offseason with not much cap room to speak of, signed Holmes to a $50 million deal and then had the cheese to sign Nnamdi.

The salary cap is a funny thing, and has been worked many different ways in the past. I would not be surprised in the least if the Texans worked a few contracts in a way that allowed us to franchise Mario and sign Foster. I'm not saying that's what I prefer to happen, but I've learned in the past that assuming things about the cap can be rather pointless.
I'm honestly a little curious as to why the Texans didn't do something with Mario's contract this past offseason. I know they were moving him to another position, but they should know what they have in Mario & what they are going to get from him.

If they franchise him, that tells me they aren't as confident in Mario as I am.
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Old 01-10-2012   #489
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I'm honestly a little curious as to why the Texans didn't do something with Mario's contract this past offseason. I know they were moving him to another position, but they should know what they have in Mario & what they are going to get from him.
If they franchise him, that tells me they aren't as confident in Mario as I am.

What does it tell you if they let him walk.

My guess is they know what they have in Mario and they try to move him ( even though I think the chances are very slim and that option is over) or he walks. Someone with more knowledge may be able to explain how the new franchise levels work but based on the old ones I don't think the Texans will franchise him, they just can't afford to. Plus I don't think the demand out in the league is high for Mario, plus what leverage do the Texans have on Mario. I am sure they talked to Mario during the off season but he probably wanted to test FA.

The Texans rolled the dice on him and again I think the best outcome would have been if he stayed healthy and played to an All Pro caliber and still I think the Texans would have had a dilemma in regards with what to do about Mario in the upcoming season.

I don't think the odds were very good on rolling the dice and keeping Mario this season vs trading him.

Very interested to see how it all ends. I think Mario will not break the bank where ever he ends up. Just my opinion.
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Old 01-10-2012   #490
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Default Re: Mario Williams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
what free agents do we want or need? if we can keep our own (mario and foster), and sign our draft picks, we are exactly where we want to be next season. again, i guessed wrong about his being able to transition to linebacker, but folks seem to be ignoring his impact every season - including this one.

mario williams is an all-pro for good reason, everyone who talks about the texans calls him our best defensive player for good reason. we're jaded. 9 sacks and the best run stuffing DE on a busted shoulder makes him a bum. a sack per start in his transition, against the meat of our schedule isnt enough. we're not going to get a better rush linebacker OR a better defensive end ... forget about having someone who can be both at his level. we dont need 3 good players for one great, we need our all-pro with a full offseason to get healthy and training camp to take our defense from 2nd to 1st.
There is just no way you can know this. You do not have any idea of how well a draft pick can be. For example Donta Hightower and Vinn Curry could be Demeco Ryans and Mario Williams. You admit you guessed wron about Mario transitioning and you could be wrong here also. I am not advocatging a trade but would consider offers before saying yes or no.
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Old 01-10-2012   #491
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Default Re: Mario Williams

Quick comparison to a team looking at retaining their best pass rusher:

JJ Watt - 2.6 mil
Antonio Smith - 8 mil
Conner Barwin - $585k
Shaun Cody - $2.25 mil
Mario - ?

Corey Williams - 6 mil
Ndamukong Suh - 9.25 mil (salary only, couldn't find bonuses)
Kyle Vanden Bosch - 5.9 mil
Cliff Avril - ?

DL and OLB's Texans - $13.44 mil + Mario
DL Detroit - $21.15 mil
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Old 01-10-2012   #492
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Default Re: Mario Williams

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Quick comparison to a team looking at retaining their best pass rusher:

JJ Watt - 2.6 mil
Antonio Smith - 8 mil
Conner Barwin - $585k
Shaun Cody - $2.25 mil
Mario - ?

Corey Williams - 6 mil
Ndamukong Suh - 9.25 mil (salary only, couldn't find bonuses)
Kyle Vanden Bosch - 5.9 mil
Cliff Avril - ?

DL and OLB's Texans - $13.44 mil + Mario
DL Detroit - $21.15 mil
Smith got a 12.5m bonus and I think Mario could get much more and keep his cap hit about same as Antonio's. Smith is signed through 2013 and we need to draft someone eventually to replace him. Does JJ Watt have a younger brother coming out soon? Or Smith for that matter.
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Old 01-10-2012   #493
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Smith got a 12.5m bonus and I think Mario could get much more and keep his cap hit about same as Antonio's. Smith is signed through 2013 and we need to draft someone eventually to replace him. Does JJ Watt have a younger brother coming out soon? Or Smith for that matter.
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Old 01-10-2012   #494
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
Smith got a 12.5m bonus and I think Mario could get much more and keep his cap hit about same as Antonio's. Smith is signed through 2013 and we need to draft someone eventually to replace him. Does JJ Watt have a younger brother coming out soon? Or Smith for that matter.
Does the bonus they receive never go against the cap? I have a hard time believing it never counts against the cap. Someone please explain. Thanks
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Old 01-10-2012   #495
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by gafftop View Post
Does the bonus they receive never go against the cap? I have a hard time believing it never counts against the cap. Someone please explain. Thanks
Bonuses are different but when speaking in general bonus is considered "upfront" money that player gets to sign the contract. The amount is averaged over the deal. For example Smith's $12.5m over 5 yrs was subtracted from his total deal of $35.5m. His annual salary can then be divided however agent and team chooses. The bonus is divided over deal= $12.5m divided by 5= $2.5m added to each year's salary. Smith's for 2011 was $4.6 + $2.5= $7.1m total cap hit. 2012: $5.5m + 2.5= $8m. If a player is traded the entire remaining amount is applied against team total cap next season. To clarify, the total bonus "up front" is subtracted from total contract amount to get true "salary costs". $35.5m - 12.5m= $23 million over 5 years + the prorated avg of $2.5m.

This is why I believe Texans will be able to sign Mario if they choose. Dunta Robinson signed for $7m bonus BUT $25.5 m guaranteed. A combo of SMith and DR's deal for Mario: 6 year $72m with $20m upfront and first 3 seasons guaranteed.

$72m- $20(bonus)= $52m salary.
$20m divided by 6(years)= $3.4m annual cap hit. Here is where it gets good. We backload the 6 years say 1. $3m 2. $3m 3. $3m Now he has $20m in his pocket + $9m for 3 years guaranteed. The cap is $3.4( bonus)+ $3m salary = $6.4m for three seasons. His 2011 cap was $15m and we now have the difference of almost $9million.

In 2013, the new television monster deal with NFL kicks in with an extra $3Billion to be divided among 32 teams.

Mario remaining 3 seasons: $52m- $9m (1st 3 seasons)=$43m divided by remain 3 seasons = $14m which is where he stands for 2011.
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Old 01-10-2012   #496
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Default Re: Mario Williams

babboy is headed in the right direction, as usual.

Keep in mind the salary cap should be increasing over the next several years. So while we were close to it this year, next year may be a different story. It will be very interesting to watch this transpire.
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Old 01-10-2012   #497
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Does the bonus they receive never go against the cap? I have a hard time believing it never counts against the cap. Someone please explain. Thanks
Bonuses all eventually count against the cap. The variation is in timing of the cap accounting. Signing bonuses are pro-rated over the lifetime of the contract. Roster bonuses are accounted for in the cap for the league year in which they are paid.
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Old 01-10-2012   #498
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Default Re: Mario Williams

Mario's contract is going to be the Giant White Elephant in the room whenever our off-season starts.
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Old 01-10-2012   #499
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
Smith got a 12.5m bonus and I think Mario could get much more and keep his cap hit about same as Antonio's. Smith is signed through 2013 and we need to draft someone eventually to replace him. Does JJ Watt have a younger brother coming out soon? Or Smith for that matter.
I can't think of the guy's name, but there is a player from SMU that I really like as a late round draft pick.

I've also mocked Jared Crick as I think he could be good value if he slips because of his inury.
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