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Old 09-08-2011   #441
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
I just love Internet debates.

I say Mario is not top tier, others say he is, so I'm wrong and they're right.

I'll see what he does this year, but make no mistake about it...he will be defended (as usual) because "He's in a new system and asked to play a different role."

Previously, he was on a bad defense. Now he's on SUCH a good defense that it overshadows him and his "new role" which also provides an excuse for any lack of impact he might have this year.

A rhinestone sitting on top of a pile of horse manure sparkles, but it ain't a diamond. Mario has been the best d-linemen we've had in the Kubiak era, but that doesn't mean he's All-World. I'd even wager that had he been drafted at like pick 15 (like we normally do every year) he wouldn't be as heavily touted by everybody.

Last thing: He gains a bit of "pop" by virtue of having beaten out VY and RB in the draft. Remember how everybody thought we were dumb for taking Mario over such vaunted talents as VY and RB? That's because nobody knew Mario Williams before he became Houston's #1 pick. He wasn't a prominent NCAA player on a big-time NCAA team, and it blew people's minds when he was picked #1. By virtue of NOT being as bad as VY and RB, he gains some cred that I think is overblown.

I want to see him dominate several games in-a-row and be unblockable. Haven't seen it yet.
speaking of debates I hope this one turns out better: remember Kubiak said when he got the HC gig he would make HWMNBN a better starting NFL QB? now it's Wade turn, he might have just told Bob that he could turn Mario into a playmaking OLB in his hybrid defense.
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Old 09-08-2011   #442
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Default Re: Mario Williams

Out of the 2006 draft, who would you rather have?

Out of these, the only one i would consider would be Ngata, which wouldn't of lead to Okoye, which may of lead to Revis or Willis. I don't think Revis would of developed into what he is today, however.

*Queue butterfly effect

*only listing Probowlers, per Wiki

Williams, Mario† DT
Young, Vince † QB
Ferguson, D'Brickashaw OT
Vernon Davis TE
Jay Cutler QB
Haloti Ngata DT
Antonio Cromartie† CB
Tamba Hali† LB
Davin Joseph† G
DeAngelo Williams RB
Mercedes Lewis TE
Nick Mangold C
Joseph Addai RB
(Demeco Ryans, already drafted) LB
Roman Harper S
Marcus McNeill OT
Greg Jennings WR
Devin Hester WR/R
MJJ RB
OD (alreadt drafted) TE
Jahri Evans G
Leon WashingtonRB
Stephen Gostowski K
Brandon Marshall WR
Elvis Dumerville DE
Kyle Williams DT
Antoine Bethea S
Cortland Finnegan CB
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Old 09-08-2011   #443
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post

If he fails it won't be because he isn't like Demarcus ware as there have Been all types that have failed and all types that have done well.
Show me anyone that has played that position that isn't a ware type that has done well. Mario doesn't fit the typical type of athlete that you find at the position. This is the first time that I have heard of a player with Mario's skillset being tried at OLB.

I think Everyone would agree Mario is a great athlete for his size but compared to the Ware's of the NFL he doesn't have the first step or initial burst to blow by Olinemen. That is what makes Ware types so dangerous.

And Mario certainly hasn't shown the instincts or technique to make up for his lack of burst. That is why you see OLinemen and TE's able to lock him up so much. He is going to get his stats simply because of his size and ability but the question people like me want answered is, can he be a weapon at OLB? Unless he miraculously develops some legit moves, instincts and a killer mentality I don't see how that is possible.

Is he going to be terrible? No! Can he become the weapon that the position was designed for? We'll see but I along with others seriously doubt it.
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Old 09-08-2011   #444
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
speaking of debates I hope this one turns out better: remember Kubiak said when he got the HC gig he would make HWMNBN a better starting NFL QB? now it's Wade turn, he might have just told Bob that he could turn Mario into a playmaking OLB in his hybrid defense.
I think that by virtue of having Wade as d-coord, improving the secondary with TWO quality guys in Manning and Joseph, and the Defense-heavy draft...it pretty much is going to put Mario under the microscope.

Can he produce with all this upgraded talent around him?

Kubiak came in and improved the offense in just one season. He even reduced Carr's sack numbers in a HUGE way. A dramatic dip in sacks-taken by Carr. With a new offense, and a few upgrades on offense, even Carr looked better in just one year. However, he looked better because everything around him became better.

Can Mario make a jump up with the uprades around him? For the record, since everybody loves to parse my replies: I am NOT equating Carr and Mario, just saying that both guys were the "Feature Player/Leader" of their respective position(s) and both guys had a new coach come in and upgrade the system and the players around him.

Mario will retire a Texans player. Bob wants it, and I understand the mindset. He's not terrible, he's not mediocre. He's "good" and Bob will want him and Andre Johnson to retire Texans. Can't blame him on that one.
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Old 09-08-2011   #445
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by powerfuldragon View Post
you know what would be really cool? if every time he was about to all out rush the QB, he yelled MMMAAARRRIOOO HHHWWWILLIAMMMMS in the style of Leeroy Jenkins...
I agree with this. He would be my favorite player if he did that.
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Old 09-08-2011   #446
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Default Re: Mario Williams

I like when Wade has him up on the line with his hand down. Is this your typical OLB position? probably not, but it puts Mario in the best position to get into the backfield quickest. Teams counter by running the opposite direction, this feeds them into the teeth of Wades defensive shifts. If Mario gets a sack or tackle behind the line of scrimmage that's a bonus, bottom line is there will be more three & outs than ever allowing Texan offense to rack up significantly more scoring plays which should translate into more wins
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Old 09-08-2011   #447
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Default Re: Mario Williams

It no longer matters to me what pick Mario was or what position he played last season. He does not have to be super Mario to be successful in this defense but he has to be pretty good and soon. We have a better defense around him and arguably the best DC in NFL at the 3-4. Wade thinks he can turn Williams into a very good QB disrupter and we know he has done this with others. Against Collins, Mario should have a very good if not great game.
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Old 09-08-2011   #448
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by Section516 View Post
Semi-relevant..

I had a good laugh when reading on the Jag's forum, they figured they'd offer us a firstie and get a little Williams on their side.

in-division trade for inadequate compensation=WIN!
Pssh, he's only worth a 3rd...
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Old 09-08-2011   #449
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
Show me anyone that has played that position that isn't a ware type that has done well. Mario doesn't fit the typical type of athlete that you find at the position. This is the first time that I have heard of a player with Mario's skillset being tried at OLB.

I think Everyone would agree Mario is a great athlete for his size but compared to the Ware's of the NFL he doesn't have the first step or initial burst to blow by Olinemen. That is what makes Ware types so dangerous.

And Mario certainly hasn't shown the instincts or technique to make up for his lack of burst. That is why you see OLinemen and TE's able to lock him up so much. He is going to get his stats simply because of his size and ability but the question people like me want answered is, can he be a weapon at OLB? Unless he miraculously develops some legit moves, instincts and a killer mentality I don't see how that is possible.

Is he going to be terrible? No! Can he become the weapon that the position was designed for? We'll see but I along with others seriously doubt it.

1st, I disagree that TE's and lineman consistently lock him up. IMHO, a lot of people like to look at games and make determinations without knowing exactly what a player is trying to do. Often times D-linemen are asked to hold the point of attack in running situations. Exactly how many times have you seen Mario get pushed back and cleared out of the way?

As far as your point about showing another player like Mario being successful there hasn't been many players like him to play that position. But that's not what I said. What I said was that there have been different types of players to play the position.

I don't think your argument really holds a lot of weight because you are not taking into account innovation. If folks always did one thing the same way you wouldn't have anyone setting trends.

Maybe Mario fails. I don't know. IMOHO, I think he will succeed though. But saying that no one like him has done it before doesn't mean a whole lot to me.
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Old 09-08-2011   #450
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Default Re: Mario Williams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Section516 View Post
Out of the 2006 draft, who would you rather have?

Out of these, the only one i would consider would be Ngata, which wouldn't of lead to Okoye, which may of lead to Revis or Willis. I don't think Revis would of developed into what he is today, however.

*Queue butterfly effect

*only listing Probowlers, per Wiki

Williams, Mario† DT
Young, Vince † QB
Ferguson, D'Brickashaw OT
Vernon Davis TE
Jay Cutler QB
Haloti Ngata DT
Antonio Cromartie† CB
Tamba Hali† LB
Davin Joseph† G
DeAngelo Williams RB
Mercedes Lewis TE
Nick Mangold C
Joseph Addai RB
(Demeco Ryans, already drafted) LB
Roman Harper S
Marcus McNeill OT
Greg Jennings WR
Devin Hester WR/R
MJJ RB
OD (alreadt drafted) TE
Jahri Evans G
Leon WashingtonRB
Stephen Gostowski K
Brandon Marshall WR
Elvis Dumerville DE
Kyle Williams DT
Antoine Bethea S
Cortland Finnegan CB
Haloti Ngata. Love Mario but Ngata is a beast.
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Old 09-08-2011   #451
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
I like when Wade has him up on the line with his hand down. Is this your typical OLB position? probably not, but it puts Mario in the best position to get into the backfield quickest. Teams counter by running the opposite direction, this feeds them into the teeth of Wades defensive shifts. If Mario gets a sack or tackle behind the line of scrimmage that's a bonus, bottom line is there will be more three & outs than ever allowing Texan offense to rack up significantly more scoring plays which should translate into more wins
Great post, I agree with you too much BL. I love seeing Mario on the line of scrimmage. Whether we want to call this a 3-4, 4-3 or 5-2.... I still think Mario will be doing virtually the same thing. Maybe he stands up a little more, but it's not like he won't have his hand in the dirt either.

We're finally getting a really really solid front 7 unit. Mario, Watt, Smith, Barwin, Reed, et al... I hope we can find a stud NT this next draft and I hope we don't let these pieces get away. Build it and keep it.
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Old 09-08-2011   #452
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Default Re: Mario Williams

Eh...he sux!
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Old 09-08-2011   #453
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
1st, I disagree that TE's and lineman consistently lock him up. IMHO, a lot of people like to look at games and make determinations without knowing exactly what a player is trying to do. Often times D-linemen are asked to hold the point of attack in running situations. Exactly how many times have you seen Mario get pushed back and cleared out of the way?
This! ^^^

People will like to point at a video clip of Mario setting the edge, then say... "see! he can't even fight off that block." none of us really knows what defensive play was called in that situation. if Mario rushed the passer on every single down, offenses would simply call screens and draws his way. they have to mix it up to keep the offense guessing what he's going to do.

What makes Mario great is his versatility. He plays the run just as well as he rushes the passer... so why make him one dimensional?
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Old 09-08-2011   #454
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Default Re: Mario Williams

Damn. Nobody was more against MW moving to WOLB than me, and I let it go. The people that know what they're talking about decided to move him there, so let it be and we'll all see what it will be. I'm just glad that Kubiak doesn;t have that "just sucked on a lemon" look that Peyton has. Yes, I'm watching the game and Green Bay just recovered a Saints fumble.
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Old 01-07-2012   #455
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Default Re: Mario Williams

Seeing MW on the sidelines of todays game, I think we've seen him play his last game as a Texan. I just can't figure out how we'll be able to keep him and sign key players like AF this offseason.
MW has been very good, but I think Reed has shown that he can fill that spot admirably and Foster has earned a HUUUUUUUGE payday.
What do you guys think? I'm not all that great with cap numbers.
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Old 01-07-2012   #456
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by DocBar View Post
Seeing MW on the sidelines of todays game, I think we've seen him play his last game as a Texan. I just can't figure out how we'll be able to keep him and sign key players like AF this offseason.
MW has been very good, but I think Reed has shown that he can fill that spot admirably and Foster has earned a HUUUUUUUGE payday.
What do you guys think? I'm not all that great with cap numbers.
At the start of this season I would have thought bringing Mario back was an absolute must. Seeing the emergence of other players on the D-line makes me backtrack a little from that. I still want him back if a deal can be made that makes the finances work, but I'm not sure a bank-breaking deal is worth it for the team at this point. And I think keeping him would require a below-market deal given the other signing needs and salary cap issues.
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Old 01-07-2012   #457
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Default Re: Mario Williams

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Originally Posted by DocBar View Post
Seeing MW on the sidelines of todays game, I think we've seen him play his last game as a Texan. I just can't figure out how we'll be able to keep him and sign key players like AF this offseason.
MW has been very good, but I think Reed has shown that he can fill that spot admirably and Foster has earned a HUUUUUUUGE payday.
What do you guys think? I'm not all that great with cap numbers.
Well the Texans need to make an educated decision with MW. It can't just be a decision simply based on the hopes that guys like Brooks Reed and Connor Barwin will be even better next year. They need to research, analyze, and dissect every piece of information they have on MW and then make a decision. Personally, I think he'll be back for at least 1 more year, but with the money saved they can sign a good no.2 receiver, another pass rusher, and perhaps more help in the secondary. It's going to be a tough decision for Rick Smith to make. All we can hope for as fans is that the decision is made with due diligence.
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Old 01-07-2012   #458
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Default Re: Mario Williams

They ain't gonna let Mario walk for nothin. They'll franchise his ass first.
Could you imagine this guy with THIS defense next year? Who you gonna
double team at the line of scrimmage? They may average a sack-per-pass
attempt on defense with all the weapons the Texans will be bringing back.
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Old 01-07-2012   #459
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Default Re: Mario Williams

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBar View Post
Seeing MW on the sidelines of todays game, I think we've seen him play his last game as a Texan. I just can't figure out how we'll be able to keep him and sign key players like AF this offseason.
MW has been very good, but I think Reed has shown that he can fill that spot admirably and Foster has earned a HUUUUUUUGE payday.
What do you guys think? I'm not all that great with cap numbers.
Isn't Foster a RFA any ways? Foster isn't going any where, if anything he's looking like the franchise player on the offense.

I'd like to have Mario back. Sure Barwin has stepped in and done his thing but I think Mario is a different animal and with him we'd be one step closer to building a legendary defense. Also I think McNair will want Mario back, we know he can be a sympathetic guy and lets remember all the crap this team has taken because they picked Mario over Bush/VY...I don't see him just letting Mario walk. If Mario goes it's probably because a team opened up the bank to a number the Texans cap can't match.

I guess we'll see, it'll be the biggest story for this team in the offseason but I sure hope we won't have to think about it until February
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Old 01-07-2012   #460
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Default Re: Mario Williams

Mario is a 20 sack threat in Wade's scheme and is a mountain on run defense. BR has done well for a 2nd round pick, but he's not close to replacing a legitimate blue chip player. You don't just let an elite talent walk.

Foster is a RFA and we can keep him for peanuts.
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