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Old 05-22-2004   #41
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We'll never know if when the Cowboys traded down they were hoping for Bell.
You seemed pretty certain of yourself earlier. Wait, lemme see...

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Dallas was probably trying to copy the Texans and get both an offensive linemen AND their choice at running back .... TATUM BELL.
Yeah, that was you. Now it's "we'll never know"?

Here's what we do know:

1. Julius Jones was invited to Dallas before the draft...Tatum Bell was not.
2. Julius Jones was called after Dallas traded out of the first and was told that if he was there in the 2nd, they were taking him. Tatum Bell was not called.

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When the Texans traded up for Babins, it makes no sense to say 'settled'. You trade up because you have a strong conviction, like the Broncos did with Bell over Julius.
I'm referring to their failed attempt to trade up to #20 or higher to take Wilfork. Since they didn't get the player they really wanted (Wilfork), they settled on Babin (even if they still had to trade up to get him).
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Old 05-22-2004   #42
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Originally Posted by Huge
I'm referring to their failed attempt to trade up to #20 or higher to take Wilfork. Since they didn't get the player they really wanted (Wilfork), they settled on Babin (even if they still had to trade up to get him).
You dont settle on someone you trade up to get. They got Babin because he is the perfect OLB for a 34 defense and Capers saw Kevin Greene in him.
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Old 05-22-2004   #43
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I'm referring to their failed attempt to trade up to #20 or higher to take Wilfork.
Huh? Would you care to elaborate as to how you came about this bit of trivia?
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Old 05-22-2004   #44
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You dont settle on someone you trade up to get. They got Babin because he is the perfect OLB for a 34 defense and Capers saw Kevin Greene in him.
You do (settle) if he's not the player you originally wanted (Wilfork). But read on first...

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Huh? Would you care to elaborate as to how you came about this bit of trivia?
I don't know this. In fact, I highly doubt a word of it is true.

Extra credit: Can anybody guess my reasoning for posting in such a manner w/o offering something that would back up such a claim?
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Old 05-22-2004   #45
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Originally Posted by Huge
You do (settle) if he's not the player you originally wanted (Wilfork).
But Wilfork was off the board 7 picks before we made the deal to get Babin. Casserly traded up to get Babin after Wilfork was taken, so I just cant see what you mean by "they settled" on Babin. It wasnt like they traded up to 27 when 26 was on the clock and Wilfork was on the board and the 26 pick took him. They traded up knowing Wilfork wasnt there.

Maybe I can understand you a little, but not that much.
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Old 05-23-2004   #46
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But Wilfork was off the board 7 picks before we made the deal to get Babin. Casserly traded up to get Babin after Wilfork was taken, so I just cant see what you mean by "they settled" on Babin. It wasnt like they traded up to 27 when 26 was on the clock and Wilfork was on the board and the 26 pick took him. They traded up knowing Wilfork wasnt there.
If a trade doesn't happen (Texans moving up to 20th or higher) doesn't mean a team wasn't trying (going after the player they wanted).

However, the whole Wilfork ordeal is only an example of how to not make baseless statements without having anything to support it. Kind of like if somebody else was to say the Cowboys wanted Tatum Bell all along but settled on Julius Jones.

See my point?
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Old 05-23-2004   #47
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Gotcha, Huge.
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Old 05-23-2004   #48
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I still think that the cowboys wanted tatum bell with that pick.
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Old 05-23-2004   #49
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I still think that the cowboys wanted tatum bell with that pick.
I dont think so, isnt it Bell that has a fumbling problem?
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Old 05-23-2004   #50
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Originally Posted by Huge
However, the whole Wilfork ordeal is only an example of how to not make baseless statements without having anything to support it. Kind of like if somebody else was to say the Cowboys wanted Tatum Bell all along but settled on Julius Jones.

See my point?
You asked...

I don't see the point. I see weak.

If you think someone has a poor posture on an argument or is engaging in idle speculation, you feel you need to emulate it with pure fantasy in order to overcome it? The point you made (to me) is that you lack conviction in your argument, thats all. All you really told me is that you are willing to just make things up to prove your "point".
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Old 05-23-2004   #51
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I thought it was kind of a clever way to make a point. There are alternatives to brute force ...
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Old 05-23-2004   #52
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Cleaver is fine, but if you are going to fabricate stuff, what's the point? Why not just make up everything and when called out, just tell us you were kidding?
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Old 05-23-2004   #53
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It's a technique to learning, Steel Blue (Vinny?). I could sit here and just tell somebody the error of their ways. Or I could use an example that might help them see it for themselves.

I think there's a difference between me teaching somebody and somebody learning for themselves.
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Old 05-23-2004   #54
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The Logic is simple.

The Broncos trade up to have a CHOICE between Bell and Jones.

They took Bell.

I think we are all entitled to form an opinion about the Broncos abilities to evaluate RB talent. I believe HUGE injected Portis into this discussion.

When the Cowboys used their second pick, they had NO CHOICE. Bell was gone.

The Broncos should have contacted Huge before the draft and he could have explained to them that Bell fumbles.

I only suggest that the Cowboys MAY have wanted the option to draft Bell. The option the Broncos had when they traded in front of them. We will never know for sure.
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Old 05-23-2004   #55
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Originally Posted by Huge
It's a technique to learning, Steel Blue (Vinny?). I could sit here and just tell somebody the error of their ways. Or I could use an example that might help them see it for themselves.

I think there's a difference between me teaching somebody and somebody learning for themselves.
Teaching who? Mistril48 merely suggested that the Cowboys were looking at Bell based on a logical progression. You were just making up fantasy as fact. Isn't there a difference there somewhere?
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I agree with HUGE. Dallas was probably trying to copy the Texans and get both an offensive linemen AND their choice at running back .... TATUM BELL.

Bummer that the Broncos took him right before the Cowboys pick. Oh well. Maybe they can convince people they wanted Julius anyway.

Broncos ... Portis ... Tatum Bell. Now I know why Portis was on Huge's mind.
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Old 05-23-2004   #56
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Actually I injected Portis into the discussion when I posted his stats, saying that would be a good goal for DD to shoot for this year. I think that used to be the main topic of this thread.

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By Huge: Clinton Portis. And I'm assuming you brought him up because he's the RB the Texans passed on before they selected Davis
And for the record, Huge, you assumed wrong.

Last edited by aj.; 05-23-2004 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 05-23-2004   #57
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The Logic is simple.

The Broncos trade up to have a CHOICE between Bell and Jones.

They took Bell.

I think we are all entitled to form an opinion about the Broncos abilities to evaluate RB talent. I believe HUGE injected Portis into this discussion.

When the Cowboys used their second pick, they had NO CHOICE. Bell was gone.
So we all agree that Denver had Bell rated above Jones. Where we disagree is that this doesn't mean that if one team has one player rated above the other (Denver with Bell over Jones), it automatically means Dallas had him rated higher as well.

A better example than the Wilfork **** is Deangelo Hall and Dunta Robinson. Did the Texans "settle" for Robinson because Hall was taken a couple of picks before? If not, how do you know this?

And no, I wasn't the one that injected Portis into this discussion. Read on...

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If DD gets 2000 yards, that means he had 350+ carries. I'd kinda like to see him have a nice long career and that's certainly not the best way to approach it for a guy whose durability may be an issue.

His goals should look like this IMO (guess the RB):

Yds Carries Avg TD Long
1591 290 .....5.5 14 65
That's aj's post...not mine. I merely answered his question "(guess the RB)".

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I only suggest that the Cowboys MAY have wanted the option to draft Bell. The option the Broncos had when they traded in front of them. We will never know for sure.
They had the option of drafting any RB in the draft (none were taken by the time Dallas was on the clock in the first round). They chose to trade down. Even after trading down, they still had the option of Greg Jones, Michael Turner, Mewelde Moore, etc. And of all those players, Julius Jones was the only one that was invited to Dallas before the draft (this we know as fact).

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Teaching who? Mistril48 merely suggested that the Cowboys were looking at Bell based on a logical progression. You were just making up fantasy as fact. Isn't there a difference there somewhere?
There would be a difference if there was a "logical progression".
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Old 05-23-2004   #58
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Fair enough, but you did ask if we "saw your point". It was lost on me, but then again, I'm being a bit of a homer here.

I just didn't see how you can "teach a lesson" by taking a comment that was admittedly speculation and make a "factual statement" about Wilfork that you conceded was fantasy only after someone else called you on it.
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Old 05-23-2004   #59
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Had it been known that it was fantasy when I orginally made it, the point (don't make baseless statements you can't back up) would not have gotten across.
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Old 05-23-2004   #60
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Originally Posted by Huge
Clinton Portis. And I'm assuming you brought him up because he's the RB the Texans passed on before they selected Davis.
I was referring to your injection of Portis as an alternative for the Texans (just as Bell could have been an alternative for the Cowboys, had the Broncos not traded up), as opposed to the use of Portis as a benchmark for RBs.
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