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Old 11-07-2007   #101
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
Well, you have to imagine that, because it is an imaginary scenario. The truth is, there was no pot o' gold at the end of the 1st pick rainbow. The hype was just that. The so called elite prospects had questions marks all over them. And they still do.
Well all I know about it is that I watched the guy chase down a Raider WR on an end around. Now on the one hand you could say that Mario is a bust because he was out of poition and wasn't deep enough to make the TFL. On the other hand, I don't know too many 299 pound guys who can run with a Raider WR. From my tree the only thing the guy needs is some more experence. And the only thing the board needs concerning the guy is a six pack of patience. Put this foot here, put that foot there.
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Old 11-07-2007   #102
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
Well all I know about it is that I watched the guy chase down a Raider WR on an end around. Now on the one hand you could say that Mario is a bust because he was out of poition and wasn't deep enough to make the TFL. On the other hand, I don't know too many 299 pound guys who can run with a Raider WR. From my tree the only thing the guy needs is some more experence. And the only thing the board needs concerning the guy is a six pack of patience. Put this foot here, put that foot there.
Kubiak pointed to that play and made a point of saying that it was the safety's play, not Mario's play, but he ran it down anyway. I don't think the argument in bold holds much water.
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Old 11-07-2007   #103
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
32 teams passed on DeMeco Ryans. I guaran-fricken-tee you that if anyone would have known beforehand what kind of player Ryans would have turned out to be, he would have been the 5th player taken overall, and the 1st linebacker taken.

So you just never know. The draft fanatics can't stand to hear it, but draft day is a crap shoot.
I hear ya. I've always been one that thinks draftniks make the draft too hard. I'm not starting a draft thread and we have had this convo on the board before, but I've always thought a guy like DeMeco would be an easy pick...leader, works his tail off, makes plays despite speed/size, intelligent. But teams always go combine and stats. There is a reason why guys like Zach Thomas and others make it despite their combine type numbers and it has alot to do with instinct and heart. That comment has nothing to do with Mario but I think we are in a day and age of "potential" and hitting home runs instead of getting a guy who makes plays. My whole point above is that I would rather EXPECT people to be DeMeco than to take 3 years and have patience.
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Old 11-07-2007   #104
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
Well all I know about it is that I watched the guy chase down a Raider WR on an end around. Now on the one hand you could say that Mario is a bust because he was out of poition and wasn't deep enough to make the TFL. On the other hand, I don't know too many 299 pound guys who can run with a Raider WR. From my tree the only thing the guy needs is some more experence. And the only thing the board needs concerning the guy is a six pack of patience. Put this foot here, put that foot there.
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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
Kubiak pointed to that play and made a point of saying that it was the safety's play, not Mario's play, but he ran it down anyway. I don't think the argument in bold holds much water.
Mario might have pushed him further outside, but he did not make the tackle. He dove and missed the runners legs and Von Hutchins tackled him out of bounds. Kubiak did say it was the Safety's play. Mario did well by forcing him further outside for safety cleanup.

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1-10-OAK 48 (3:57) 15-J.Higgins left end to HOU 44 for 8 yards (34-V.Hutchins).
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playby...2007&week=REG9
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Old 11-07-2007   #105
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
Well, you have to imagine that, because it is an imaginary scenario. The truth is, there was no pot o' gold at the end of the 1st pick rainbow. The hype was just that. The so called elite prospects had questions marks all over them. And they still do.
Yea, since it didn't happen I obviously do have to imagine it, but I think it's foolhardy to think we couldn't have found any trade partners that would've given us relatively fair compensation.
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Old 11-07-2007   #106
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by HOU-TEX View Post
Mario might have pushed him further outside, but he did not make the tackle. He dove and missed the runners legs and Von Hutchins tackled him out of bounds. Kubiak did say it was the Safety's play. Mario did well by forcing him further outside for safety cleanup.



http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playby...2007&week=REG9
I think this is one of those plays that never show up on the stat line, but tell alot about a players ability and heart. The Coaches and Players see it. And sometimes, some of the fans do too! JMHO!
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Old 11-07-2007   #107
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Fox View Post
...but I think it's foolhardy to think we couldn't have found any trade partners that would've given us relatively fair compensation.
Foolhardy or not, I've never seen a credible (or incredible) report that suggested the Texans were offered anything for the #1 pick. On draft day, I did see something on either ESPN or NFL Network regarding an offer by the Jets to move up for the Saints pick at #2 to select Bush. The offer was the Jets pick at #4 plus a 4th round selection. There was another rumor that had Casserly calling the Jets to gauge their interest in moving from #4 to #1. Jets GM Mike Tannenbaum responded, "So what else will you give me for it?"

Fact is, the NFL was less enamored with the prospects in the '06 draft than were the fans and draftniks.
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Old 11-07-2007   #108
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
Foolhardy or not, I've never seen a credible (or incredible) report that suggested the Texans were offered anything for the #1 pick. On draft day, I did see something on either ESPN or NFL Network regarding an offer by the Jets to move up for the Saints pick at #2 to select Bush. The offer was the Jets pick at #4 plus a 4th round selection. There was another rumor that had Casserly calling the Jets to gauge their interest in moving from #4 to #1. Jets GM Mike Tannenbaum responded, "So what else will you give me for it?"

Fact is, the NFL was less enamored with the prospects in the '06 draft than were the fans and draftniks.
I think Lucky is spot-on. Thats pretty much what I remember. Not to mention that its been discussed ad naseum over many, many other threads spread out over the last year and a half...
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Old 11-07-2007   #109
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
Foolhardy or not, I've never seen a credible (or incredible) report that suggested the Texans were offered anything for the #1 pick. On draft day, I did see something on either ESPN or NFL Network regarding an offer by the Jets to move up for the Saints pick at #2 to select Bush. The offer was the Jets pick at #4 plus a 4th round selection. There was another rumor that had Casserly calling the Jets to gauge their interest in moving from #4 to #1. Jets GM Mike Tannenbaum responded, "So what else will you give me for it?"

Fact is, the NFL was less enamored with the prospects in the '06 draft than were the fans and draftniks.


Nope, it just boils down to the money factor. Teams don't want the #1 overall draft pick in any draft not only b/c it means you have to suck more than anyone else the prior year, but also b/c 1st overall picks contracts are getting too ridiculous. to trade up to get a top 3 pick means you have to have at least 30 million on reserve for that 1 player, Hence trading down from 1 to 3, or even 4 or 5 only works if you're already picking at the top b/c those guys already KNOW they're gonna be dropping at least 25 million. 5 million seems like nothing if your already dropping 20+ for a guy, but that's why those guys (owners) are rich & we aren't.
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Old 11-07-2007   #110
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Insideop View Post
I think this is one of those plays that never show up on the stat line, but tell alot about a players ability and heart. The Coaches and Players see it. And sometimes, some of the fans do too! JMHO!
True. I've chosen to regulate my criticism of Mario and the Dline until we have a decent secondary. Some blame the Dline for not putting pressure on the QB, which is fine, but a majority of the time the opposing QB is getting rid of the ball very quickly. If the DBs can hold their coverage longer than 2 seconds it'll give the Dline a better chance of getting to the QB. I'm not saying the Dline is not to blame, but if the DBs aren't doing their job the Dline can't do theirs.

Now that Dunta is gone, they're going to have to step up their game bigtime. Especially our DBs.

My .02

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Old 11-07-2007   #111
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
[/b]

Nope, it just boils down to the money factor. Teams don't want the #1 overall draft pick in any draft not only b/c it means you have to suck more than anyone else the prior year, but also b/c 1st overall picks contracts are getting too ridiculous. to trade up to get a top 3 pick means you have to have at least 30 million on reserve for that 1 player, Hence trading down from 1 to 3, or even 4 or 5 only works if you're already picking at the top b/c those guys already KNOW they're gonna be dropping at least 25 million. 5 million seems like nothing if your already dropping 20+ for a guy, but that's why those guys (owners) are rich & we aren't.
Yep, just ask the Raiders.
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Old 11-07-2007   #112
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by HOU-TEX View Post
True. I've chosen to regulate my criticism of Mario and the Dline until we have a decent secondary. Some blame the Dline for not putting pressure on the QB, which is fine, but a majority of the time the opposing QB is getting rid of the ball very quickly. If the DBs can hold their coverage longer than 2 seconds it'll give the Dline a better chance of getting to the QB. I'm not saying the Dline is not to blame, but if the DBs aren't doing their job the Dline can't do theirs.

Now that Dunta is gone, they're going to have to step up their game bigtime. Especially our DBs.

My .02

Sounds eerily familiar to the "David Carr" evaluation. As soon as we get an O-Line, then I can actually evaluate that scrub. If you want to watch how a D-Line should perform, pop in a Titans tape. MW is a physical beast with no instincts or aggressiveness. He should be blowing OT's UP Man to Man, period. He IS ON THE ROAD TO BUSTVILLE or GOOD ATHLETE/AVERAGE FOOTBALL PLAYER.
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Old 11-07-2007   #113
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Sounds eerily familiar to the "David Carr" evaluation. As soon as we get an O-Line, then I can actually evaluate that scrub. If you want to watch how a D-Line should perform, pop in a Titans tape. MW is a physical beast with no instincts or aggressiveness. He should be blowing OT's UP Man to Man, period. He IS ON THE ROAD TO BUSTVILLE or GOOD ATHLETE/AVERAGE FOOTBALL PLAYER.
Hey, whatever tugs your twig.

I'll continue to evaluate the team as a whole and form my own opinions. To each their own.
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Old 11-07-2007   #114
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
I think the point you are missing is that no player from that draft has shown to be worthy of #1 pick money. "The team made a mistake" implies that there was a correct answer to the question, "Who should the Texans take with the #1 pick?". 1 & 1/2 seasons later, that answer still isn't apparent. The "mistake" was finishing with the worst record in the NFL.
I don't think any player is worth the #1 money they are getting, so I'm usually a trade down guy. Problem is, there is no one to trade with.

In hindsight who should they have picked? D'Brickashaw. The o-line isn't good - at least he would have made a positive impact for the money.

A guy I know who has a lot of good football knowledge was adamant that D'Brickashaw was the right pick from the start. I spoke to him recently and his only other comment was, "Can you picture Andre Johnson and Reggie Bush in the same offense?" He thought they would spread the field pretty well if they used Reggie all over the place and not as a dedicated running back. I know that isn't popular here because Reggie doesn't have a Bull on the side of his helmet, but he would probably be better for the team too.
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Old 11-07-2007   #115
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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I don't think any player is worth the #1 money they are getting, so I'm usually a trade down guy. Problem is, there is no one to trade with.

In hindsight who should they have picked? D'Brickashaw. The o-line isn't good - at least he would have made a positive impact for the money.

A guy I know who has a lot of good football knowledge was adamant that D'Brickashaw was the right pick from the start. I spoke to him recently and his only other comment was, "Can you picture Andre Johnson and Reggie Bush in the same offense?" He thought they would spread the field pretty well if they used Reggie all over the place and not as a dedicated running back. I know that isn't popular here because Reggie doesn't have a Bull on the side of his helmet, but he would probably be better for the team too.

At this point, Reggie Bush just might have cracked my top twenty of guys I would have selected. Joseph Addai and Santino Holmes would have helped our O more.

I can't figure out why we promised Mario so much money. We have the leverge - everybody thought we were picking Bush. Why couldn't get talk Mario's agent down - threatening to select Bush.
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Old 11-07-2007   #116
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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At this point, Reggie Bush just might have cracked my top twenty of guys I would have selected. Joseph Addai and Santino Holmes would have helped our O more.
Good point. I was considering the most popular candidates at the time - Bush, Mario, D'Brickashaw...

Knowing what we know now (DeMeco in the 2nd), Hawk is kind of intriguing to think about. Build the defense around great linebackers; we already had a big investment in d-line without Mario.
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Old 11-07-2007   #117
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
Foolhardy or not, I've never seen a credible (or incredible) report that suggested the Texans were offered anything for the #1 pick. On draft day, I did see something on either ESPN or NFL Network regarding an offer by the Jets to move up for the Saints pick at #2 to select Bush. The offer was the Jets pick at #4 plus a 4th round selection. There was another rumor that had Casserly calling the Jets to gauge their interest in moving from #4 to #1. Jets GM Mike Tannenbaum responded, "So what else will you give me for it?"

Fact is, the NFL was less enamored with the prospects in the '06 draft than were the fans and draftniks.
The key problems are two things:

1. The rookie salaries for top of the draft picks is ridiculous. Few players can be "worth" that money. There are some who claim it is the "curse of the first pick."

2. The 2006 draft made this even more difficult because the draft was very deep at the top of the draft. That even if you didn't get #1-3, you could still get a solid guy to contribute to your team.

Though Reggie Bush was the popular consensus #1 pick, picking him really wasn't a no brainer. Because of he style of play, the way he was used at USC, and his legs. He's pals with LT, but he isn't LT.

Leinart goes #1 in 2005, but because he stayed for his senior year, he goes #10.

The draft is a crap shoot. Players get hurt.

Overall, I see Mario as a solid player, but not worth first pick money. Few players are. Maybe DeMeco is, but I really don't care whether DeMeco gets the money or Mario does at this point. Ain't my money. Imagine DeMeco being picked first and Mario being picked #33 if it makes you feel any better evaluating their performances.
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Old 11-07-2007   #118
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

When a guy like Vernon Davis is the highest paid TE ever, you know theres a huge problem in the rookie pay scale.
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Old 11-08-2007   #119
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Ain't my money. Imagine DeMeco being picked first and Mario being picked #33 if it makes you feel any better evaluating their performances.
Not really. Taking the great pick they made in with Demeco and figuring in Mario makes it about average for the first two rounds. Average in the long haul tranlsates to 8-8. Not good enough, especially since they'll have to pay Demeco the big money at some point while Mario is still rolling on that big contract.

Upon further consideration, 8-8 is a step up...
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Old 11-08-2007   #120
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner View Post
In hindsight who should they have picked? D'Brickashaw. The o-line isn't good - at least he would have made a positive impact for the money.
Ferguson has allowed 15 sacks in 25 games as a pro. You're kidding yourself if you believe he wouldn't hear his name associated with the word "bust" had he given a similar performance here.

I'm not saying that D'Brickashaw doesn't have potential and won't become a good pro, maybe even great. Before the draft, I suggested that both Ferguson and Williams may very well be considered the best of their draft class after 5 seasons. I still believe that. But, D'Brickashaw has yet to show he's worthy of the #1 overall pick. Neither has Williams. Or Young. Or Bush. And so on...and so on...
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