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Old 11-06-2007   #21
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
Mario Williams is playing on a horrible defense.

His "mentors" are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver.

He is playing with mostly inexperienced guys and street free agents.

And an inexperienced guy is running the defense. Someone with no philosophy or track record other than saying he likes running an aggressive 4-3.

And the secondary is by most accounts the worst in the league, so you can't expect much as far as coverage sacks.

Williams does stuff that doesn't show up in stats as far as his hurries. It was interesting to see how many times that the Raiders ran away from him the last game.

That being said, you see moments of potential mixed with needing to work on technique and not overpursing.

Those who question his effort, I do not think are watching closely.

As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.
I've said it beofer and I'll say it again...the only thing the Chron staff holds against Mario is that his name is Mario Williams and not Vince Young. Or in other words they are acting more like fans then some of the most fair-weather of fans.

None of those guys have ever moved past the 2006 Draft, and from the looks of it hey never will (in what is another example of the crap journalism that comes out of the Chron's sports department).

Sorry if I sound like a broken record today.
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Old 11-06-2007   #22
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
Mario Williams is playing on a horrible defense.

His "mentors" are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver.

He is playing with mostly inexperienced guys and street free agents.

And an inexperienced guy is running the defense. Someone with no philosophy or track record other than saying he likes running an aggressive 4-3.

And the secondary is by most accounts the worst in the league, so you can't expect much as far as coverage sacks.

Williams does stuff that doesn't show up in stats as far as his hurries. It was interesting to see how many times that the Raiders ran away from him the last game.

That being said, you see moments of potential mixed with needing to work on technique and not overpursing.

Those who question his effort, I do not think are watching closely.

As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.
Way to pick our spirits up TC... SO much to look forward to..... *shoots self*



J/K TC...
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Old 11-06-2007   #23
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

Mario hasn't been a bust but he hasn't lived up to the pick we used on him or the money we pay him to play football. without a doubt.

My problem with Mario is that he lacks speed and quickness and was touted as someone who would be able to sack Peyton. Most of his sacks have been coverage sacks or sacks that have been funneled his way. He had that great one handed sack this year and he has been living off that one for some time now. He needs to improve his technique and learn to get off blocks. He spends too much time engaged and with his hands on the OL. He needs to learn to shirk those OL and get to the passer.

I saw him play with more discipline on Sunday though and more fire as well. I hope the guy progresses into a good player but I don't think anyone being critical of him is necessarily a bad fan or impatient. They are just expecting more for what we pay him and what we gave up/passed on to take him. I am not going to fault a fan for that. If we were 6-3, no one would even bring up Mario but because the team has been struggling with wins and sacks, Mario is an easy and legit target. Not so much the player, but the selection as #1 overall.

If Mario was a 3rd Round Pick, no one would be complaining nearly as much, but I doubt he would have earned the starting job.
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Old 11-06-2007   #24
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

you can't look at a stat line and figure out if a lineman is playing well or not.
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Old 11-06-2007   #25
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
you can't look at a stat line and figure out if a lineman is playing well or not.
I thought folks would have figured that out over the great debate about HWSRN....
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Old 11-06-2007   #26
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
you can't look at a stat line and figure out if a lineman is playing well or not.
True. And that's what makes it frustrating for fans because most fans don't really know how to evaluate a lineman.

And because of the emotions surrounding last year's pick, it's hard to get straight talk about Williams, without junk being talked about.

The coaches say stuff positive about him based on their tape and what they've called, and a lot of people think that is all pravda.

You can do your own evaluations, but it is semi-limited from your TV watching based on angles. You can watch it live and have a sense of things, but that's only once.

I think the truth is between outstanding and bust. I think a lot of people forget he came out as a true junior and the limitations of playing on this defense. He came onto a defense where they need him to play awesome because there is so much suck on it and the schemes are suspect.

It is interesting to read that they tried him out a little at outside linebacker in a few situations and liked what they saw. I know that he did a bit of that in college.
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Old 11-06-2007   #27
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Texan_Bill View Post
I thought folks would have figured that out over the great debate about HWSRN....
apparently not..

I also feel the whole argument that "he needs to perfect other moves.." is b/s too. I mean i watch other top DE's & they basically have 1 move or 1 thing that they're great at that leads to them getting most of their sacks.

Taylor - speed on the edge with the stiff arm
Freeney- speed spin with the occassional speed dip
Peppers - see Taylor
Strahan- see Taylor

etc.

I think it's cool that he tries them out to set guys up, but he looks best when he just bull rushes over the guy like he did in the giants game last year & like he did against KC this year.
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Old 11-06-2007   #28
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

If you are going to use stats or any other system of measurement for a player such as Strahan, Peppers or anyone, then the same system of measurement should be used for our guys. DEs are evaluated by sacks, hurries and tying up o linemen. Mario has not done that well.
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Old 11-06-2007   #29
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post
If Mario was a 2nd Round Pick, no one would be complaining nearly as much.
That's very true, but it would also be nice if the fans recognized that Mario didn't select himself 1st overall. He has work to do, but he can only do what he can. As long as he continues working and continues improving, I have no problem with Mario, even though I might have a problem with the pick itself (which I don't, personally, except he wasn't D'Brick).
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Old 11-06-2007   #30
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
That's very true, but it would also be nice if the fans recognized that Mario didn't select himself 1st overall. He has work to do, but he can only do what he can. As long as he continues working and continues improving, I have no problem with Mario, even though I might have a problem with the pick itself (which I don't, personally, except he wasn't D'Brick).
My concern is if Mario is having a Travis Johnson 2006 season? I do not compare the talents of both coming out of college, but Johnson imo has looked better than Mario this season. That is not because he has another year on Williams, it is because he got his butt chewed.

Last edited by badboy; 11-06-2007 at 04:50 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-06-2007   #31
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
True. And that's what makes it frustrating for fans because most fans don't really know how to evaluate a lineman.

And because of the emotions surrounding last year's pick, it's hard to get straight talk about Williams, without junk being talked about.

The coaches say stuff positive about him based on their tape and what they've called, and a lot of people think that is all pravda.

You can do your own evaluations, but it is semi-limited from your TV watching based on angles. You can watch it live and have a sense of things, but that's only once.

I think the truth is between outstanding and bust. I think a lot of people forget he came out as a true junior and the limitations of playing on this defense. He came onto a defense where they need him to play awesome because there is so much suck on it and the schemes are suspect.

It is interesting to read that they tried him out a little at outside linebacker in a few situations and liked what they saw. I know that he did a bit of that in college.

Texans Chick has a good point that Mario hasn't played with a lot of talent around him. I think we all get that. I just think if your the #1 overall pick you should be making players around you better and not need to have better players around you in order to excel.

I agree with everything you said though, and its obvious that the coachspeak has been a little 'Pravda' because if he was truly 'exceptional' as Kubiak labeled him post-Chargers blowout, well then why the hell would they move him to OLB. They are just trying to get him in a position where he can truly be 'exceptional' and not just be mislabeled as such by the HC in order to deflect criticism and be a homer coach.

If he was so exceptional, he wouldnt be moved around...so Gary was full of it in essence. oh well, not the first time Gary has been full of it...Kubiak claiming Carr was good enough to be the Texans QB was the first load of crap...probably wont be the last.
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Old 11-06-2007   #32
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
Mario Williams is playing on a horrible defense.

His "mentors" are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver.

He is playing with mostly inexperienced guys and street free agents.

And an inexperienced guy is running the defense. Someone with no philosophy or track record other than saying he likes running an aggressive 4-3.

And the secondary is by most accounts the worst in the league, so you can't expect much as far as coverage sacks.

Williams does stuff that doesn't show up in stats as far as his hurries. It was interesting to see how many times that the Raiders ran away from him the last game.

That being said, you see moments of potential mixed with needing to work on technique and not overpursing.

Those who question his effort, I do not think are watching closely.

As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.

I said something similar to this in another thread and when I do speak of things Mario did in a particular game I am called blind, homer or told I have a man crush.

Like the saying goes, it is hard to sore like an eagle when you are surrounded by turkeys.

TC, just curious and sorta on the same subject line with coaching. the Ravens look like they are in for one long season and a new coaching regime could be taking over. Whom out there would you like to see take over as the Texans "D" coordinator, line coach and secondary coach?

So far I think it is unanimous that Richard Smith needs to go, as does Jon Hoke; but do you think Franklin and Bush needs to go as well?
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Old 11-06-2007   #33
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoth-Boy View Post
I've said it beofer and I'll say it again...the only thing the Chron staff holds against Mario is that his name is Mario Williams and not Vince Young. Or in other words they are acting more like fans then some of the most fair-weather of fans.

None of those guys have ever moved past the 2006 Draft, and from the looks of it hey never will (in what is another example of the crap journalism that comes out of the Chron's sports department).
There are reasons why I don't pay any attention to Chronicle writers, and this is some of them. I swear, reading ill informed remarks about the Texans on ESPN and other national sites isn't near as bad as reading some of the shit I've read from the Chronicle writers.
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Old 11-06-2007   #34
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
you can't look at a stat line and figure out if a lineman is playing well or not.
True. One thing you can't see, and this comment is not directed specifically to Mario but he is affected by it, is how NFL officials are not calling holding this year. It seems as if only blitzers and speed DE's are allowed to get to the QB and anyone else is fair game. I obviously watch more Texans football than other teams, but across the board this year power DE's and DT's are getting raped and the old conventional wisdom rules are out the window. I have seen at least 15 instances this year of an OLmen with his arm around the throat of a DLmen because his body is almost or entirely behind the DLmen and there is no flag. There was a play last weekend where a guy almost saddled TJ and rode him to the ground. Also, as always--discretionary calls hurt bad teams more than superstar teams.
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Old 11-06-2007   #35
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Mario is going to be alright. We just have to be patient about it and don't set ourselves up for unrealistic expectations.
That is the trap I myself have fallen into. Impatience, and unrealistic expectations. I am wanting that Sean Jones/William Fuller combo. I fooled myself into thinking that Mario by himself could make Babin good. I forget sometimes that he is still a kid playing a grown mans game.
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Old 11-06-2007   #36
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post
Texans Chick has a good point that Mario hasn't played with a lot of talent around him. I think we all get that. I just think if your the #1 overall pick you should be making players around you better and not need to have better players around you in order to excel.
I agree with everything you said though, and its obvious that the coachspeak has been a little 'Pravda' because if he was truly 'exceptional' as Kubiak labeled him post-Chargers blowout, well then why the hell would they move him to OLB. They are just trying to get him in a position where he can truly be 'exceptional' and not just be mislabeled as such by the HC in order to deflect criticism and be a homer coach.

If he was so exceptional, he wouldnt be moved around...so Gary was full of it in essence. oh well, not the first time Gary has been full of it...Kubiak claiming Carr was good enough to be the Texans QB was the first load of crap...probably wont be the last.
And there has been my rub the whole time with him. I was never a VY or Bush guy..even though I respect both greatly and see the benefits...I was more trade down and get Mario at maybe 3. But no trades and he would have been gone from what we here. It isn't his fault he is picked there but over history that is the stigma with being the pick. The way the pick was explained to us was we had to keep up with the Colts and be a pressure D and he was the speed rusher we needed. So now we are being patient again and waiting for him to develop?That is what kills me. Its Year 6 and we are still talking patience with picks, etc.
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Old 11-06-2007   #37
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by raytex View Post

Dwight Freeny

2002- 13 Sacks
2003- 16 sacks
2004- 11 sacks
2005- 13 sacks
I have a theory on Freeney, I believe Carr is the reason why his numbers are so inflated. 02-05 Freeney would sack Carr 5-6 times a year.

06 and Kubiak takes the ball out of Carr's hands and runs the ball more and gets more production out of the Oline, he finishes the year with 5.5 sacks.

Look at this year, no Carr, only 3.5 sacks.

And if you think that is crazy Brandon, I cant think of his last name, from the Titans, sacked Carr twice a game. Thats four sacks a year just by playing against David Carr.

Just a theory. But if it can be proven then Freeney needs to hand over some of that bonus money to Carr.
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Old 11-06-2007   #38
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
you can't look at a stat line and figure out if a lineman is playing well or not.
Sure you can. I call it production. Not all stats are meaningless.

Think of these stats as his job evaluation. Is Mario doing his job? PD tells me that he is being disruptive in the passing game, getting into passing lanes and disrupting the play, Solo tackles tell me that he is staying home, playing his assignments and filling the gaps, Assist tell me that he is pursuing the play and hustling down field, Sacks mean he is doing his job as a pass rush DE.

QB stats I will agree with you that you cant judge a QB by just a stat line, and yes there are things that DE's do that don't show up, but the stat line is a good tale tell of what a Dlineman is doing.
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Old 11-06-2007   #39
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

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Originally Posted by TEXANRED View Post
I have a theory on Freeney, I believe Carr is the reason why his numbers are so inflated. 02-05 Freeney would sack Carr 5-6 times a year.

06 and Kubiak takes the ball out of Carr's hands and runs the ball more and gets more production out of the Oline, he finishes the year with 5.5 sacks.

Look at this year, no Carr, only 3.5 sacks.

And if you think that is crazy Brandon, I cant think of his last name, from the Titans, sacked Carr twice a game. Thats four sacks a year just by playing against David Carr.

Just a theory. But if it can be proven then Freeney needs to hand over some of that bonus money to Carr.
Thats actually pretty interesting.. Maybe Freeney should go to the NFC South.
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Old 11-06-2007   #40
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Default Re: Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TEXANRED View Post
I have a theory on Freeney, I believe Carr is the reason why his numbers are so inflated. 02-05 Freeney would sack Carr 5-6 times a year.

06 and Kubiak takes the ball out of Carr's hands and runs the ball more and gets more production out of the Oline, he finishes the year with 5.5 sacks.

Look at this year, no Carr, only 3.5 sacks.

And if you think that is crazy Brandon, I cant think of his last name, from the Titans, sacked Carr twice a game. Thats four sacks a year just by playing against David Carr.

Just a theory. But if it can be proven then Freeney needs to hand over some of that bonus money to Carr.
That may be true to an extent but Freeney is a damn good football player.
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