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Old 11-06-2007   #1
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Default Our First Round DLine

There are so many people whining and complaining about how our dline is not performing and how we have SO many first round picks and SO much money invested in it. Also, many people have been targetting Mario Williams, posters and the media.

Prior to this year, people had been targetting Travis Johnson, who people swore was a bust. This year, however, TJ has picked it up. He's been playing with intensity and has been making plays. This is his third year in the NFL, which many say is how long it takes for a defensive lineman to become acclimated and really show their stuff.

Hmmmm, three years for TJ to start playing well....so far it's been two years for Mario and one for Okoye. It's time to lay off the DLine and be patient. Okoye is actually already playing like a man possessed, and if the three year rule applies to Mario, then our line will be pretty stacked.
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Old 11-06-2007   #2
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

The line played pretty dang good against Oakland, don't let any one tell you they did not. The numbers don't indicate they did a good job out there last sunday because they only got one sack...but McCown ran for his life nearly every play, Raider fan will tell you that. Also Mario played really well that game despite not getting a sack.
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Old 11-06-2007   #3
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

Both of you are right.

But lets put this in perspective. It was Oakland.

Don't get me wrong. I like our line. I think they are much maligned mostly because they play with one of the worst secondaries (now with DR out the ABSOLUTE worst) in the league. Mario still needs to work on a move other than the bull rush and the run around out of the play but he has the raw tools. Our OL plays much better against the run than people give them credit for. Our OLBs however, are horrible against, well anything but the kneel down. That's just the way it is.

This line will take time to develop. Keep in mind. 3/4 of our DL doesn't have that "man strength" yet either. Those of you over about 25 know what I'm talking about.

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Old 11-06-2007   #4
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

if not mistaken I heard yesterday on the Kubiak show that Mario Williams will be playing more with his hands & head up instead of down in a three point stance. they feel it might really help him in play recognition & free him to be more of a playmaker in space.
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Old 11-06-2007   #5
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

Quote:
Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
if not mistaken I heard yesterday on the Kubiak show that Mario Williams will be playing more with his hands & head up instead of down in a three point stance. they feel it might really help him in play recognition & free him to be more of a playmaker in space.
I heard that to. Somebody called in and mentioned that he had seen Mario
upright instead of playing with his hand down in a couple of instances and
Kubiak really perked up.
Where's he going with this ? Unless they are planning on making Mario a LB,
nah I'm just kidding, but are they suggesting he may really be upright at the
"LOS" when the ball is snapped, meaning we've only got 3 DLineman with their hands down in a 4-3 defense ?
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Old 11-06-2007   #6
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

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Originally Posted by nunusguy View Post
I heard that to. Somebody called in and mentioned that he had seen Mario
upright instead of playing with his hand down in a couple of instances and
Kubiak really perked up.
Where's he going with this ? Unless they are planning on making Mario a LB,
nah I'm just kidding, but are they suggesting he may really be upright at the
"LOS" when the ball is snapped, meaning we've only got 3 DLineman with their hands down in a 4-3 defense ?
That's what I was thinking, so in a way we will be running a 3-4?
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Old 11-06-2007   #7
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

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Originally Posted by M Shadows View Post
That's what I was thinking, so in a way we will be running a 3-4?
Actually, I think they moved Clark to the pass rushing defensive end position when they moved mario, so i guess it was still technically a 4-3.
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Old 11-06-2007   #8
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

Jeez, some of the fans in this town are simply turning into excuse generators.

One 1st round pick was a bust for 3 years and is now playing well. Therefore we should allow 3 years for every 1st round pick to develop before we are allowed to criticize them.
That doesnt make a lot of sense...

The benefit of picking 1st overall in the entire NFL draft as compared to picking in the middle of the 1st or in later rounds is that you are supposed to get the player you want. You are guaranteed you can get any player you want, and you are guaranteed you can get the best overall player in the draft. He is supposed to be physically gifted, football smart, a hard worker, etc. Basically, its supposed to be as close to a risk-free pick as you can possibly make.

Looking back, there are LOADS of better players right now than Mario. He has done very, very little, and the worst part is he is constantly bashed by the media, fans, and teammates for not being an every down guy. They say he needs a fire lit under him.

If you have the 1st pick, how do you not know a guy is going to "need a fire" to ignite his play? Thats unexcusable, and until he plays up to his 1st overall status, I think its more than justified to cricitize both him and the entire Texans FO
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Old 11-06-2007   #9
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtexan02 View Post
Jeez, some of the fans in this town are simply turning into excuse generators.

One 1st round pick was a bust for 3 years and is now playing well. Therefore we should allow 3 years for every 1st round pick to develop before we are allowed to criticize them.
That doesnt make a lot of sense...

The benefit of picking 1st overall in the entire NFL draft as compared to picking in the middle of the 1st or in later rounds is that you are supposed to get the player you want. You are guaranteed you can get any player you want, and you are guaranteed you can get the best overall player in the draft. He is supposed to be physically gifted, football smart, a hard worker, etc. Basically, its supposed to be as close to a risk-free pick as you can possibly make.

Looking back, there are LOADS of better players right now than Mario. He has done very, very little, and the worst part is he is constantly bashed by the media, fans, and teammates for not being an every down guy. They say he needs a fire lit under him.

If you have the 1st pick, how do you not know a guy is going to "need a fire" to ignite his play? Thats unexcusable, and until he plays up to his 1st overall status, I think its more than justified to cricitize both him and the entire Texans FO
Hate to rain on your parade, but there are no guarantees in any draft. Its a crap shoot, any way you look at it. There have been many busts in the first round, including number one overall, and many hall-of-famers selected in the latter rounds and even undrafted. Just the way it goes.
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Old 11-06-2007   #10
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

I think that the DL definitely needs more time to develop and will take a longer time to make the same sort of impact as a stud RB or WR. I think a player like Adrian Peterson or Calvin Johnson can be more effective quicker than Amobi Okoye.

The problem lies in Mario being selected #1 overall and not #13 overall. Fans/Media expect the players in the top 3 to come into the league and automatically dominate.

As much as I want Mario to go to the pro bowl, I'm more willing to give him more time. But for fans expecting more from him should be competely understandable.

He was drafted #1 overall and there's a stigma that comes with that, that maybe they are better than any other player in the draft and shouldn't take as long to develop.
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Old 11-06-2007   #11
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

Not to make excuses for average play, but Mario was/is being held more than any player along our Dline. I know, I know, there's holding on every play, but damn I'm talking strangle holds.

I reckon we need to become a decent football team before we get much respect from the officials.
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Old 11-06-2007   #12
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

Oh by the way mario has not benn in the league 3 years gtexan, this is his scond year and last year he had the foot injury all year.

OK back to the ranting, just wanted to make sure the facts were straight.
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Old 11-06-2007   #13
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtexan02 View Post
Jeez, some of the fans in this town are simply turning into excuse generators.

One 1st round pick was a bust for 3 years and is now playing well. Therefore we should allow 3 years for every 1st round pick to develop before we are allowed to criticize them.
That doesnt make a lot of sense...

The benefit of picking 1st overall in the entire NFL draft as compared to picking in the middle of the 1st or in later rounds is that you are supposed to get the player you want. You are guaranteed you can get any player you want, and you are guaranteed you can get the best overall player in the draft. He is supposed to be physically gifted, football smart, a hard worker, etc. Basically, its supposed to be as close to a risk-free pick as you can possibly make.

Looking back, there are LOADS of better players right now than Mario. He has done very, very little, and the worst part is he is constantly bashed by the media, fans, and teammates for not being an every down guy. They say he needs a fire lit under him.

If you have the 1st pick, how do you not know a guy is going to "need a fire" to ignite his play? Thats unexcusable, and until he plays up to his 1st overall status, I think its more than justified to cricitize both him and the entire Texans FO

first of all it's rare that any player, no matter where they're drafted, come in & dominate or at least live up to the hype that is the #1 overall pick or being picked in the top 5. Since 2000, only about 15 of the top 5 in each draft (excluding '07) have even gone on ( or at least appear to be headed in the right direction) to have relatively decent careers, let alone good/great as being drafted in the top 5 would seem to signify. Of those same years, Only 1 of those guys (palmer) seems to have been worthy of the #1 overall pick in his draft with Eli,Fitzgerald, Taylor & now rivers all seemingly pretty solid & could easily make their cases for being the top overall pick in '04.

You're right it is a benefit & that's about it. But then also consider that most teams are pretty much in agreement on who's worth of top 5 status, the odds are still against you that you might miss on a pick.

The point is, whether the picks are consensus or not, all u can be fairly confident about is that you will get a decent player in the top 5, nothing more. I would say that to this point mario is at least solid.

Last edited by Mr teX; 11-06-2007 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 11-06-2007   #14
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtexan02 View Post
Jeez, some of the fans in this town are simply turning into excuse generators.

One 1st round pick was a bust for 3 years and is now playing well. Therefore we should allow 3 years for every 1st round pick to develop before we are allowed to criticize them.
That doesnt make a lot of sense...

The benefit of picking 1st overall in the entire NFL draft as compared to picking in the middle of the 1st or in later rounds is that you are supposed to get the player you want. You are guaranteed you can get any player you want, and you are guaranteed you can get the best overall player in the draft. He is supposed to be physically gifted, football smart, a hard worker, etc. Basically, its supposed to be as close to a risk-free pick as you can possibly make.

Looking back, there are LOADS of better players right now than Mario. He has done very, very little, and the worst part is he is constantly bashed by the media, fans, and teammates for not being an every down guy. They say he needs a fire lit under him.

If you have the 1st pick, how do you not know a guy is going to "need a fire" to ignite his play? Thats unexcusable, and until he plays up to his 1st overall status, I think its more than justified to cricitize both him and the entire Texans FO
But the point I was trying make was that DLinemen supposedly have a more difficult time of transitioning to the NFL, whereas Wide Recievers and Running backs might just have to get used to the speed of the game.

So, where a RB, Reggie Bush or Adrian Peterson, might come into the league and put up solid numbers in his rookie year, Dlinemen take 2-3 years to develop.

Travis Johnson, Mario Williams, and Amobi Okoye all fall into this category and will HOPEFULLY not turn out to be busts IN TIME.

And how is it "justified" to critizice Mario Williams for not playing up to his "1st overall status"? It wasn't his decision to be the first pick of the draft, that was the FO. Yes, you can justify bashing the FO for picking MW, but as far as bashing MW for not playing up to your expectations...
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Old 11-06-2007   #15
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

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Originally Posted by buddyboy View Post
So, where a RB, Reggie Bush or Adrian Peterson, might come into the league and put up solid numbers in his rookie year, Dlinemen take 2-3 years to develop.
Off topic, but one of those 2 guys just doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence with the other. You figure out which one is which.
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Old 11-06-2007   #16
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

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Originally Posted by buddyboy View Post
But the point I was trying make was that DLinemen supposedly have a more difficult time of transitioning to the NFL, whereas Wide Recievers and Running backs might just have to get used to the speed of the game.

So, where a RB, Reggie Bush or Adrian Peterson, might come into the league and put up solid numbers in his rookie year, Dlinemen take 2-3 years to develop.

Travis Johnson, Mario Williams, and Amobi Okoye all fall into this category and will HOPEFULLY not turn out to be busts IN TIME.

And how is it "justified" to critizice Mario Williams for not playing up to his "1st overall status"? It wasn't his decision to be the first pick of the draft, that was the FO. Yes, you can justify bashing the FO for picking MW, but as far as bashing MW for not playing up to your expectations...
I don't agree with this at all.

I would be fine waiting on Mario Williams to develop if thats what I thought was going to happen from day 1.

But the problem I'm having is that the Texans specifically said the 2 reasons we were bringing in Mario were:
1) To bring the heat against guys like Peyton Manning
2) Because he was the most NFL ready guy

I realize that many DL take years to develop, but why are there other DEs from the same draft class who were taken later in round 1, and even in other rounds, who are/have already out produced Mario?

Why is it that Amobi Okoye, who was actually EXPECTED to be a project, has dominated against the pass AND the run as a rookie?

Mario was supposed to be a pass rusher. Mario was supposed to be NFL ready. Mario was supposed to be one of the top DE prospects in years.

Im fully ready to give him more time, but because of the expectations I had for him, I feel its totally fair to criticize his play so far. I already see him making progress, but its his pass rushing that still bothers me. And the reason I think thats fair is because he was sold to us as Texans fans as the next great pass rusher. He even said his goal was to break the single season sack record.

If the Texans FO thinks hes that good, and if he thinks hes that good, then why can't I EXPECT him to be that good?
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Old 11-06-2007   #17
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

It's kinda funny how Kubiak kinda called out Amobi to play more consistent while praising Mario. Quite the contrast from the monday morning QB.
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Old 11-06-2007   #18
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

You know, thats something I dont really get. I'll admit, being in Virginia, i can't watch all the games. As such, a lot of my criciticism is based on the games I can watch at bars and therefore I dont always get the best view.

But from what Ive seen so far, Amobi is disruptive up the middle. Williams overpursues a lot, and when pass rushing, often just runs right by the QB.
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Old 11-06-2007   #19
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

I don't agree with this at all.

I would be fine waiting on Mario Williams to develop if thats what I thought was going to happen from day 1.

But the problem I'm having is that the Texans specifically said the 2 reasons we were bringing in Mario were:
1) To bring the heat against guys like Peyton Manning
2) Because he was the most NFL ready guy

I realize that many DL take years to develop, but why are there other DEs from the same draft class who were taken later in round 1, and even in other rounds, who are/have already out produced Mario?

Why is it that Amobi Okoye, who was actually EXPECTED to be a project, has dominated against the pass AND the run as a rookie?

Mario was supposed to be a pass rusher. Mario was supposed to be NFL ready. Mario was supposed to be one of the top DE prospects in years.

Im fully ready to give him more time, but because of the expectations I had for him, I feel its totally fair to criticize his play so far. I already see him making progress, but its his pass rushing that still bothers me. And the reason I think thats fair is because he was sold to us as Texans fans as the next great pass rusher. He even said his goal was to break the single season sack record.

If the Texans FO thinks hes that good, and if he thinks hes that good, then why can't I EXPECT him to be that good?
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I don't recall that being said about Mario at any time. Matt Leinart i believe was the guy they were saying was the most NFL ready..

& as far as Okoye, he isn't dominating anything... you guys need to stop with the over-exagerating. He looks good, but he's not dominating by any stretch of the imagination. The raiders ran all up the middle, as did the Dolphins & anybody else who had good rushing days against us. He's a rookie, i get that but he's still got a long way to go as does mario before we can say he's dominating anything.

he's only got 1 more sack than Mario & he just got that sunday. I would say that those 2 are doing their part on the D-line, the other 2 "veteran" guys on the line need to step their game up as far as production goes.

Last edited by Mr teX; 11-06-2007 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 11-06-2007   #20
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Default Re: Our First Round DLine

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtexan02 View Post
I don't agree with this at all.

I would be fine waiting on Mario Williams to develop if thats what I thought was going to happen from day 1.

But the problem I'm having is that the Texans specifically said the 2 reasons we were bringing in Mario were:
1) To bring the heat against guys like Peyton Manning
2) Because he was the most NFL ready guy

I realize that many DL take years to develop, but why are there other DEs from the same draft class who were taken later in round 1, and even in other rounds, who are/have already out produced Mario?

Why is it that Amobi Okoye, who was actually EXPECTED to be a project, has dominated against the pass AND the run as a rookie?

Mario was supposed to be a pass rusher. Mario was supposed to be NFL ready. Mario was supposed to be one of the top DE prospects in years.

Im fully ready to give him more time, but because of the expectations I had for him, I feel its totally fair to criticize his play so far. I already see him making progress, but its his pass rushing that still bothers me. And the reason I think thats fair is because he was sold to us as Texans fans as the next great pass rusher. He even said his goal was to break the single season sack record.

If the Texans FO thinks hes that good, and if he thinks hes that good, then why can't I EXPECT him to be that good?
I agree. Mario was presented as a "ready to go" DE that would only get better and take pressure off guys like Weaver. That seems to have changed. The coach should not have to call in TJ and tell him to get his weight right and get his act together and start to dominate. I am glad that TJ did but for a year he was a bust and the joke of the MB. He did not turn it around because he was a season older. He turned it around because he took to heart Kubes message and now is showing why he was drafted in first. Yes, Mario had a different path to the first round due to the Reggie issue. Having said that, he has not played up to hype. He needs to come back after the by week with a TJ attitude. I bet if he was told he was in danger of being cut, he would be a terror. Too bad some players have to be threatened.
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