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Old 10-27-2007   #1
Marcus
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Default Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

People are calling in on talk shows, writing to the newspaper, posting on blogs and message boards, all complaining about Kubiak's "stubbornness" in his playcalling, in that he continues to stick with running the ball, even though it's been unsuccessful so far.

I've heard Kubes state numerous times in his press conferences and interviews, that if he were to abandon the running game and "throw the ball 50 times, I'm going my quarterback hurt." Now, I know there are excuses for everything, but since we all know that the offensive line isn't that good, especially after losing McKinney, my question is that if he sincerely feels that he would put his quarterback in more danger, why is his reason for not giving up on the running game so hard to accept? Seems like a pretty legitimate reason, if you ask me.

Now, I know that Green Bay and Favre, and Philadephia and McNabb, each throw the ball way more than they run, or in other words "throw the ball to set up the run", but they each have much better offensive lines that are capable of handling the pass protection load.

But with this team's offensive line, that's not an option.

Last edited by Marcus; 10-27-2007 at 04:48 AM.
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Old 10-27-2007   #2
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
I've heard Kubes state numerous times in his press conferences and interviews, that if he were to abandon the running game and "throw the ball 50 times, I'm going my quarterback hurt."
That is kind of "sound bite-ish", I think. There are ways to set up the run with the pass, or simply pass a lot without just having the QB dropping straight back every play and stand in the pocket (and I use that term loosely with this team) with a target on his chest. He's simply a conservative coach and his style is to run first.

Anyway, the sound bite he used is better than this one: "I've been here two years, and the offense can neither run the ball nor pass it without high risk to the QB's health".

That's what it boils down to, anyway.
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Old 10-27-2007   #3
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

It seems like a lame excuse from Kubiak, seeing as how Schaub is already hurt despite all of Kubiak's worthless run attempts. All of those run attempts, didn't seem to "protect" Schaub, now did they? Am I to believe that if Kubiak abandoned the run, then Schaub would be hurt worse than he currently is?
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Old 10-27-2007   #4
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

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That is kind of "sound bite-ish", I think. There are ways to set up the run with the pass, or simply pass a lot without just having the QB dropping straight back every play and stand in the pocket (and I use that term loosely with this team) with a target on his chest. He's simply a conservative coach and his style is to run first.

Anyway, the sound bite he used is better than this one: "I've been here two years, and the offense can neither run the ball nor pass it without high risk to the QB's health".

That's what it boils down to, anyway.
Kind of ironic that you hear him say that now, after all the bologne we've been force fed about how the OL is a strength of the team and isnt a problem and doesnt require first round talent
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Old 10-27-2007   #5
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

kubiak is just a bad offensive coordinator and only a slightly better coach. he is better than capers but he lacks the fire and emotion you need in today's NFL. he is a flatliner and is too stooped in the old 'wive's tales' of football. if you can't run the ball, you don't run the ball. it's like beating your head against the wall sometimes with this guy.

maybe the guy will take the job at A&M and get us off the hook. then we can go back up the Brinks truck and hire Cowher. Cowher would bring a pantheon of quality assistants with him as well....and maybe even a few players comes here to play for him. Kubiak brought nothing but trash.
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Old 10-27-2007   #6
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

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Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post
kubiak is just a bad offensive coordinator and only a slightly better coach. he is better than capers but he lacks the fire and emotion you need in today's NFL. he is a flatliner and is too stooped in the old 'wive's tales' of football. if you can't run the ball, you don't run the ball. it's like beating your head against the wall sometimes with this guy.

maybe the guy will take the job at A&M and get us off the hook. then we can go back up the Brinks truck and hire Cowher. Cowher would bring a pantheon of quality assistants with him as well....and maybe even a few players comes here to play for him. Kubiak brought nothing but trash.
Seriously what do you think the chances are of McNair sacking Kubiak at the end of this season if Kubiak has say fewer wins than last year ?
The thing is McNair was patient & predictable with Capers, but he may be in no mood to keep Kubiak around more than 2 years if the record regresses.
I suspect by now Bob McNair is desperate to win, and especially if a HC is available who's got a winning record in the NFL he may surprise us and make a move ?
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Old 10-27-2007   #7
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

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Originally Posted by nunusguy View Post
Seriously what do you think the chances are of McNair sacking Kubiak at the end of this season if Kubiak has say fewer wins than last year ?
The thing is McNair was patient & predictable with Capers, but he may be in no mood to keep Kubiak around more than 2 years if the record regresses.
I suspect by now Bob McNair is desperate to win, and especially if a HC is available who's got a winning record in the NFL he may surprise us and make a move ?

it would be nice. hiring a Slocum protege to be your offensive whiz is probably wishful thinking at best.
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Old 10-27-2007   #8
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

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Originally Posted by nunusguy View Post
Seriously what do you think the chances are of McNair sacking Kubiak at the end of this season if Kubiak has say fewer wins than last year ?
The thing is McNair was patient & predictable with Capers, but he may be in no mood to keep Kubiak around more than 2 years if the record regresses.
I suspect by now Bob McNair is desperate to win, and especially if a HC is available who's got a winning record in the NFL he may surprise us and make a move ?
I do believe that kubiak and sherman are pushing the short yardage passes to in effect replace the run game . This is clearly upsetting schaub to the point that he is strong arming passes like that and deliberately failing to be successful . This head butting is what is the biggest downfall of the texans so far this season that coupled with the fact that the coaches are clearly pushing there scheme instead of scheming to the strengths of the players .

ps this head butting started after the carolina game and it seems familiar to me as a symptom seen from carr that speaks volumes i think .

Last edited by pappy; 10-27-2007 at 11:03 AM. Reason: ps
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Old 10-27-2007   #9
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
People are calling in on talk shows, writing to the newspaper, posting on blogs and message boards, all complaining about Kubiak's "stubbornness" in his playcalling, in that he continues to stick with running the ball, even though it's been unsuccessful so far.

I've heard Kubes state numerous times in his press conferences and interviews, that if he were to abandon the running game and "throw the ball 50 times, I'm going my quarterback hurt." Now, I know there are excuses for everything, but since we all know that the offensive line isn't that good, especially after losing McKinney, my question is that if he sincerely feels that he would put his quarterback in more danger, why is his reason for not giving up on the running game so hard to accept? Seems like a pretty legitimate reason, if you ask me.

Now, I know that Green Bay and Favre, and Philadephia and McNabb, each throw the ball way more than they run, or in other words "throw the ball to set up the run", but they each have much better offensive lines that are capable of handling the pass protection load.

But with this team's offensive line, that's not an option.
Gee, it felt like (to me) that when Sage and the entire t-e-a-m woke up from their pity party they had been throwing for themselves...and therefore starting to actually play as a team and make some first downs in the last game...that everything opened up.

Oh, I know...I know...it was because Tennessee was playing "prevent," right?

Well, whatever the case...Ahman Green was busting 10-yard runs for first downs AFTER the pass game was finally making connections and establishing the threat of moving the ball through the air.

Suddenly, LBs and CBs were no longer breaking off of WRs and TEs to gang up on Sage and Ahman.

I saw a difference AFTER the pass game was finally clicking and making progress.

And I saw our first two wins coming from the same result: The pass game was eating up defenses and they were not able to contain Ahman due to the strain it placed on them to play the in-between game: "Do I key on the WR or do I support the run? Oh crap! It's Ahman coming down the pipe and I'm 10-yards out!"

THEN what happened in game 3?

We ran the ball three straight times on our first possession, went three out and never looked the same after that. Kubiak went "cute" with the playcalling, trying to see if he could dominate with our run game early on.

I won't place ALL the blame on playcalling, but I do think it's fair to say that Kubiak did get cute with the run-heavy attitude and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that we're not a running team.

We're a passing team that uses the pass to set up a mediocre running attack which is only successful if it can fool defenses into guessing run or pass.

And when Kubiak doesn't start out a game with a heavy pass attack tha's geared to overwhelm LBs and DBs...well, you get the picture.

So, Marcus, I don't buy that this o line is retarded. Losing McKinney was worse than I imagined. Call it "the surprise of the century" if you will.

Kubiak needs to do what we do well: Pass and overwhelm, then trip 'em up with the run when applicable.

Is it THAT hard to see?
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Old 10-27-2007   #10
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

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Originally Posted by nunusguy View Post
Seriously what do you think the chances are of McNair sacking Kubiak at the end of this season if Kubiak has say fewer wins than last year ?
The thing is McNair was patient & predictable with Capers, but he may be in no mood to keep Kubiak around more than 2 years if the record regresses.
I suspect by now Bob McNair is desperate to win, and especially if a HC is available who's got a winning record in the NFL he may surprise us and make a move ?
But the truth is, that's all just a 'wishful think' on your part since you were against the Kubiak hire from the very beginning.
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Old 10-27-2007   #11
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

So far I have seen one guy bust Kubiack for having beena coach at A&M (not surprising since he dools after bevo) and we have another person saying what ever about a prevent defense and the offense being able to move the ball.

Lets take Mr Prevent does not mean crap guy.

Quote:
Gee, it felt like (to me) that when Sage and the entire t-e-a-m woke up from their pity party they had been throwing for themselves...and therefore starting to actually play as a team and make some first downs in the last game...that everything opened up.

Oh, I know...I know...it was because Tennessee was playing "prevent," right?

Well, whatever the case...Ahman Green was busting 10-yard runs for first downs AFTER the pass game was finally making connections and establishing the threat of moving the ball through the air.

Suddenly, LBs and CBs were no longer breaking off of WRs and TEs to gang up on Sage and Ahman. I saw a difference AFTER the pass game was finally clicking and making progress.
In a prevent defense you are not putting as many guys on the line and you not getting as much pressure on the QB and the RB does not have to deal with as many guys stopping the run. This creates running lanes and time for the QB to find an open receiver and the open DB (in Seages case both). If you do not get any sort of pass rush consistantly most NFL QBs will be able to pick you apart (Like Joey Harrington did).

Now onto bashing of Kubiak and his bringing in trash and wishing he was gone. Your
Quote:
it would be nice. hiring a Slocum protege to be your offensive whiz is probably wishful thinking at best
comment is a direct attempt to slap Kubiak about where he started out.

Kubiack brought nothing but trash? Don't you mean he inherriated trash and brought in some back-ups with no cap room to work with? Clark is not trash, not a super star but not trash. Losing 2 DBs early in the season, put the team on its heals and they scrambled for Safeties, granted what we picked up what not what was expected when they brought them in but at last they did not sit on their hands, plus they did not mortgage the future for bandaids.

I am not saying Kubiak is perfect and there have been threads that actually discuss issues the some have with the play calling but it was done without being an Ass, which I am learning certain people can not do. Forget discussing schemes, lets just say he sucks and brings in trash and doing it like it is a smacktalk forum.

Quote:
Kubiak is just a bad offensive coordinator and only a slightly better coach. he is better than capers but he lacks the fire and emotion you need in today's NFL.
No fire or emotion? This is not college where you have a rah rah guy on the sidelines. Bill Belichick and Tony Dungy are not fire and emotion guys they are even steady minded guys who keep their cool during the course of the game. No I am not saying Kubiak is at there level yet. Everyone thought Belichick sucked in cleveland, but maybe that had more to do with the GM and personel than it did with his techniques.

Everyone called Sean Payton a genius after one season in NO, and now is he trash and a complete moron?

I am not completely happy with the play calling on offense but I am more disappointed with the play calling on defense than I am with the Offense.
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Old 10-27-2007   #12
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

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Originally Posted by pappy View Post
I do believe that kubiak and sherman are pushing the short yardage passes to in effect replace the run game . This is clearly upsetting schaub to the point that he is strong arming passes like that and deliberately failing to be successful .
Sounds like some mighty fine strychnine laced LSD that your poppin there, pappy. Enjoy the trip!
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Old 10-27-2007   #13
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

is it just me or am I the only one who has noticed that we pass more than we run?
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Old 10-27-2007   #14
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
People are calling in on talk shows, writing to the newspaper, posting on blogs and message boards, all complaining about Kubiak's "stubbornness" in his playcalling, in that he continues to stick with running the ball, even though it's been unsuccessful so far.

I've heard Kubes state numerous times in his press conferences and interviews, that if he were to abandon the running game and "throw the ball 50 times, I'm going my quarterback hurt." Now, I know there are excuses for everything, but since we all know that the offensive line isn't that good, especially after losing McKinney, my question is that if he sincerely feels that he would put his quarterback in more danger, why is his reason for not giving up on the running game so hard to accept? Seems like a pretty legitimate reason, if you ask me.

Now, I know that Green Bay and Favre, and Philadephia and McNabb, each throw the ball way more than they run, or in other words "throw the ball to set up the run", but they each have much better offensive lines that are capable of handling the pass protection load.

But with this team's offensive line, that's not an option.
Alot of teams with worse offensive lines can throw the ball past the line of scrimmage ! Sometimes playing to your strengths and to the opponents weakness instead of just saying we have to do our thing even when they know its coming is just good wisdom . You should stop reading espn wow guys .
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Old 10-27-2007   #15
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

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So, Marcus, I don't buy that this o line is retarded. Losing McKinney was worse than I imagined. Call it "the surprise of the century" if you will.
Did you catch the contradiction there, GP? Yeah, I agree with you, the McKinney loss was just as bad, if not more, than A.J. The running seemed to be effective the first 2 games when he was playing, along with AJ, whose mere presence on the field caused the defence to not focus on the run as much.

But in the games played, where McKinney and AJ were not in the game, it's Kubiak's stubborn playcalling?

So yeah GP, I don't see it. You're going to have to spell it out for me.
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Old 10-27-2007   #16
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

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is it just me or am I the only one who has noticed that we pass more than we run?


They can never know.
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Old 10-27-2007   #17
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

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is it just me or am I the only one who has noticed that we pass more than we run?
I thought I noticed that also, but with everyone here saying that see Kubes doing nothing but run the ball, I figured I always had it on the wrong channel.
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Old 10-27-2007   #18
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

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is it just me or am I the only one who has noticed that we pass more than we run?
More and more efficiently.
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Old 10-27-2007   #19
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

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Originally Posted by Specnatz View Post
So far I have seen one guy bust Kubiack for having beena coach at A&M (not surprising since he dools after bevo) and we have another person saying what ever about a prevent defense and the offense being able to move the ball.

Now onto bashing of Kubiak and his bringing in trash and wishing he was gone. Your comment is a direct attempt to slap Kubiak about where he started out.

Kubiack brought nothing but trash? Don't you mean he inherriated trash and brought in some back-ups with no cap room to work with? Clark is not trash, not a super star but not trash. Losing 2 DBs early in the season, put the team on its heals and they scrambled for Safeties, granted what we picked up what not what was expected when they brought them in but at last they did not sit on their hands, plus they did not mortgage the future for bandaids.

I am not saying Kubiak is perfect and there have been threads that actually discuss issues the some have with the play calling but it was done without being an Ass, which I am learning certain people can not do. Forget discussing schemes, lets just say he sucks and brings in trash and doing it like it is a smacktalk forum.



No fire or emotion? This is not college where you have a rah rah guy on the sidelines. Bill Belichick and Tony Dungy are not fire and emotion guys they are even steady minded guys who keep their cool during the course of the game. No I am not saying Kubiak is at there level yet. Everyone thought Belichick sucked in cleveland, but maybe that had more to do with the GM and personel than it did with his techniques.

Everyone called Sean Payton a genius after one season in NO, and now is he trash and a complete moron?

I am not completely happy with the play calling on offense but I am more disappointed with the play calling on defense than I am with the Offense.
haha. spec, you need to take a class in reading comprehension. didn't they teach you that at that university in Indiana that has that fat head coach with a losing record? or maybe your just a t-shirt fan....whatever

ok, first off, outside of Sherman, Kubiak brought trash with him as far as assistant coaching goes. period. end of story. as far as players go, he brought no players with him outside of trash (dayne).

clark has been great but was not brought with Kubiak. Clark was an RS find and RS has done an exemplary job. so please add this to that meager cranium of yours.

as for coming out fired up and prepared, if you don't think that is important, than you are as dumb as a brick. they come out flat and unprepared and it shows.

but whatever, as far as you are concerned Kubiak is doing great and above criticism. not surprisingly you were one of the brainless homers that supported Carr abysmal performance after abysmal performance.

now go watch Notre Dame get rolled again and do something constructive other than mispelling drool and making an arse of yourself.

i have forgotten more about football than you will ever know in your life....and your takes are proof of that.

am I saying Kubiak should be instantly fired? no, what I am saying is that if a top Head Coach becomes available, we need to think seriously about hiring him because he would bring quality assistant coaches with him that would immediately upgrade our bad coaching staff and obviously upgrade our head coaching position. kubiak has done a decent job but it hasnt been good enough and his lack of emotion and fire has been displayed by the play of the team on the field.

Kubiak is an average head coach but when you realize that head coaching and teh coaching staff in general is the only thing you can do to help the team that doesnt count against the salary cap, you have to realize that you have to get the best and spare no expense. Kubiak was a hometown choice who chose Carr as his starter and Mario as his defensive anchor....not exactly Einstein, eh? Thank God, Rick Smith has come in and helped fix things somewhat on the personnel level.
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Old 10-27-2007   #20
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Default Re: Kubiak's stubbornness with the running game

Quote:
Originally Posted by Specnatz View Post
So far I have seen one guy bust Kubiack for having beena coach at A&M (not surprising since he dools after bevo) and we have another person saying what ever about a prevent defense and the offense being able to move the ball.

Lets take Mr Prevent does not mean crap guy.



In a prevent defense you are not putting as many guys on the line and you not getting as much pressure on the QB and the RB does not have to deal with as many guys stopping the run. This creates running lanes and time for the QB to find an open receiver and the open DB (in Seages case both). If you do not get any sort of pass rush consistantly most NFL QBs will be able to pick you apart (Like Joey Harrington did).

Now onto bashing of Kubiak and his bringing in trash and wishing he was gone. Your comment is a direct attempt to slap Kubiak about where he started out.

Kubiack brought nothing but trash? Don't you mean he inherriated trash and brought in some back-ups with no cap room to work with? Clark is not trash, not a super star but not trash. Losing 2 DBs early in the season, put the team on its heals and they scrambled for Safeties, granted what we picked up what not what was expected when they brought them in but at last they did not sit on their hands, plus they did not mortgage the future for bandaids.

I am not saying Kubiak is perfect and there have been threads that actually discuss issues the some have with the play calling but it was done without being an Ass, which I am learning certain people can not do. Forget discussing schemes, lets just say he sucks and brings in trash and doing it like it is a smacktalk forum.



No fire or emotion? This is not college where you have a rah rah guy on the sidelines. Bill Belichick and Tony Dungy are not fire and emotion guys they are even steady minded guys who keep their cool during the course of the game. No I am not saying Kubiak is at there level yet. Everyone thought Belichick sucked in cleveland, but maybe that had more to do with the GM and personel than it did with his techniques.

Everyone called Sean Payton a genius after one season in NO, and now is he trash and a complete moron?

I am not completely happy with the play calling on offense but I am more disappointed with the play calling on defense than I am with the Offense.
For the up-teenth time: Why doesn't Kubiak just do what we do well and stop getting cute?

Is it macho-man syndrome or something?

Who cares if we pass our way to a victory? I don't.

But if the run game isn't there, then everybody needs to stop thinking that plugging different RBs into it are going to help. Nor is it going to help to suddenly try and run the ball MORE. Nor is any other myriad of hairbrain solutions going to work.

Oh, wait a second...yes, there is one that will work: Get a hoss of an oline, which you cannot do unless you have $30 mill in cap space, and then somehow pry a great olinemen away from a team who is trying to LOCK UP said olineman. Maybe it'll work next year, when we can do it, but this season is a wash in regards to thinking that we'll be able to run the ball.

The other route is to draft them, and we've had so many holes to fill in such a short amount of time that we had to start somewhere and we started on defense, specifically the dline.

So we're in the middle of another lost season, and everyone wants to say what we should do or where the problem is at. Spencer out is not helping, obviously. AJ out is not helping, obviously, because he's a big-time deep threat and requires special gameplanning which opens up other things away from AJ. McKinney out is not helping, but it's reality. So, IMO, you can only do what you can do.

All I know is that we do well when we stick to the gameplan: Pass to overwhelm, and then use the run to supplement. And this is irregardless of who is injured and who is playing, IMO. Same gameplan no matter what.

There's not anything that can be done THIS season. Well, actually there is: Make the QB and the whole offense take what they can get, which is NOT surrendering or being less manly or something, and then work off what's given to you as the game progresses.

Some of you act like you are GMs ad if we could "only get such-and-such RB that's out there," or "we should make the trade for Bennett..." etc. All I am doing is acting like someone who sees a game, sees what we do WELL, and would just like it be as obvious to our coaching staff.

It has nothing to do with where he went to college at. And I saw Sage having to step UP into the pocket to avoid getting sacked several times late in the game because Tenn was not just runing a dime the whole time. So, howsa' bout you stop pointing your finger at posters?

We are in the last season of Casserly's Curse. Period.

So I'd like to see Kubiak stop acting as if we should curl up in the fetal position and just be content with being predictable all game and all season.

McKinney is out, it hurts. I admit it. But he's not the whole stinking team for crying out loud.
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