Kubiak: Better Coach, Same Problem?

[Yankee_In_TX]

On thread title and without reading the thread - I have a Kubiak complaint.

why is he SO insistent on "using the run to set up the pass?"

Our O-Line can't open holes, and we don't have a RB fast enough to break outside or who can create holes on his own.

What is so wrong with using the screen pass or option to set up the run?!?!?!?

[Leahmic223]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

That's not what you said:



But whatever.



yeah, why expect a pass rush from a line loaded with first round picks. I guess having any expectations for these guys should not be an option.

My point is that great defensive lines step up when required to step up. Obviously, the problem is that we do not have a "great" defensive line right now in spite of heavy investment.



I'm not ignoring anything. I've watched the game four times now (once in person and three in replay), and we did not generate much of a pass rush on Collins all game. We were always a second too late.

Make excuses for these guys all you want, but the fact remains that we have a mediocre line after drafting high for them. Maybe they develop into a force in the coming years, but they have a long way to go. Nobody fears them.

Obviously there are other factors, ranging from bad coaching calls to our offense coughing up the ball 6 times and constantly putting them in bad field position. So I'm not just pointing the finger at one aspect without an understanding of the big picture. It's just disappointing to see our team rally and our entire defensive unit fail when they could have sealed the deal.

No biggie, I no longer expect anything this season. Hope we can at least match our record from 2006 at this point.

Double read what I said BEFORE that.

"What type of consistency? Like I said, Reggie, VY, and many other rookies from his class have yet to show they can produce game in game out, that is ALWAYS the problem with young players."

Its not a contradicition to his in-game consistency because that has to do with his motor and him becoming a better player. As far as consistency between games its a problem a lot of young players have, most young players have this problem. VY could have a great passing day against the Saints...then the next game throw 3 INTs and throw for 30%...this isn't a problem for star players, this isn't a problem for Manning or Brady. They have a few bad games, but overall they produce and lead the NFL in stats. I compare VY to a star player because that is what he is supposed to become, but it isn't going to happen overnight. He may have the publcity of one, but he doesn't play like one right now.

Mario has this problem of consistency between games and IN GAMES. Don't tell me what I said because I have siad he isn't consistent between games always and that is to be expected from him(or should).

Now I agree he isn't consistent IN GAME and that has to do with how motivated he is, how much of a motor he has, stamina, and overall how good of a player he is. I remember the Giants game he had a monster first half, I was sure he was going to hurt Eli at the pace he was going...but apparantly something happened. Some suggest his foot started to wear down, but maybe the Giants adjusted? PRobably so.
DeMeco said Our Dline was doing good at the start of the season because no adjusted.

This is why Sophmore players have slumps, because teams know who they are now so they are going to adjust accodingly.

I am not saying you shouldn't expect our Dline to dominate. Go ahead expect what you want. But IMO You are expecting too much from 1st year and 2nd year guys no matter WHERE they were picked. They are human too, they have to have solid experience and learn form their mistakes and learn to adjust to the NFL before they start to produce.

I wonder, what exactly do you expect from our Dline this year? I expected the inconsistency, but I expected improvement and that is what is evident. No one sees the vast improvement? Its going to take time, you don't build great defenses and great line play in a year.

[Maddict5]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

I'm not ignoring anything. I've watched the game four times now (once in person and three in replay), and we did not generate much of a pass rush on Collins all game. We were always a second too late.

Make excuses for these guys all you want, but the fact remains that we have a mediocre line after drafting high for them. Maybe they develop into a force in the coming years, but they have a long way to go. Nobody fears them.

Obviously there are other factors, ranging from bad coaching calls to our offense coughing up the ball 6 times and constantly putting them in bad field position. So I'm not just pointing the finger at one aspect without an understanding of the big picture. It's just disappointing to see our team rally and our entire defensive unit fail when they could have sealed the deal.

No biggie, I no longer expect anything this season. Hope we can at least match our record from 2006 at this point.

i was talking about that play specifically- we got pressure.. all game- not that much.. i agree with you though- il be pretty pissed if the line isnt top notch in at most two years time but right now it just doesnt surprise me that we are mediocre given what we knew about mario starting off (raw) and okoye needing time because of his age.. maybe i just have low expectations

[Double Barrel]

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

I wonder, what exactly do you expect from our Dline this year? I expected the inconsistency, but I expected improvement and that is what is evident. No one sees the vast improvement? Its going to take time, you don't build great defenses and great line play in a year.

Originally Posted by Maddict5

i was talking about that play specifically- we got pressure.. all game- not that much.. i agree with you though- il be pretty pissed if the line isnt top notch in at most two years time but right now it just doesnt surprise me that we are mediocre given what we knew about mario starting off (raw) and okoye needing time because of his age.. maybe i just have low expectations

Good posts, guys, and I appreciate the well thought out and respectful replies.

I don't necessarily disagree with y'all. I probably am expecting too much, and I even tried to keep myself prepared for .500 ball before the season started. This last game and Miami were examples of .500 ball...you win some and lose some in really close games.

It really is a team problem, because six turnovers is what it is. We had meltdowns in many aspects of the game, but still had heart enough to bring it to a chance to win at the end. So while there are no 'moral victories', I'm trying to keep a perspective that things are improving, however slow it might seem.

But thanks again for sharing your thoughts. It helps this fan get through the day.

[Hervoyel]

The thing about not getting much pressure on a QB for most of the day is that you allow him to get comfortable. When you do get pressure late in the game for instance when you absolutely must have a stop to win then he's not going to come unglued when he sees it. He's going to stand in there like the comfortable, confident QB he's become over four quarters of football and carve you up. We've seen Kerry Collins a few times and we have always been able to rattle him in our previous meetings. Then he starts coughing up picks like crazy. Collins can be rattled into bad decisions. It doesn't look like we did much of that Sunday.

[threetoedpete]

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

Mario hasn't had the time to develop. I don't think is has been 3 seasons yet, so it is still unfair to label him a bust.

Let them rant. Pearls befor swine and all of that. The tallent on this team sucks. Has sucked for five years and will suck if they keep drafting skill guys over the line guys. And yes four first rounders on the d-line...with two of them busts. We don't have a peronel problem we have a tallent problem. Alway have. Wanna argue that TJ has had a geat season...well it took him three seasons to get here.

So Vinny you're sitting there in the seventh slot and the two LBs fall to you . You take to take the atlettic LB, or the football player? Do you draft Dan Conner over James Laurinaitis ?

Conner can be argued is the football player. Laurinaitis is clearly the better athlete, bigger faster, productive. You make the call Vinny. The only thing you all lack is a little paitince. And just for you Vinny...Tommy Harris is sucking big time the last four weeks. He's hurt just as Mario was last year.


Kubiakc has called Mario out. We'll see. Go ahead and eat the cap and cut him then. I'm sure Bud will be happy to pay the guy. I think you guys are just silly.

[Leahmic223]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

Good posts, guys, and I appreciate the well thought out and respectful replies.

I don't necessarily disagree with y'all. I probably am expecting too much, and I even tried to keep myself prepared for .500 ball before the season started. This last game and Miami were examples of .500 ball...you win some and lose some in really close games.

It really is a team problem, because six turnovers is what it is. We had meltdowns in many aspects of the game, but still had heart enough to bring it to a chance to win at the end. So while there are no 'moral victories', I'm trying to keep a perspective that things are improving, however slow it might seem.

But thanks again for sharing your thoughts. It helps this fan get through the day.

I don't disagree with anyone that says Mario isn't doing well right now. I just feel that we have to give him time at least. A season and a half isn't enough time to pass final judgement on Mario. I know you aren't one of the posters doing it. But I feel some are suggesting that since Mario is playing this way now that it will be like that for the rest of his career.

We'll see, and if he still is playing like a mediocre DE his 3rd and 4th season, I would begin to worry.

[Thorn]

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

A season and a half isn't enough time to pass final judgement on Mario.

And most especially since he played with bad feet all last year. This is really his first year being healthy and able to play.

[HoustonFrog]

Originally Posted by Yankee_In_TX

On thread title and without reading the thread - I have a Kubiak complaint.

why is he SO insistent on "using the run to set up the pass?"

Our O-Line can't open holes, and we don't have a RB fast enough to break outside or who can create holes on his own.

What is so wrong with using the screen pass or option to set up the run?!?!?!?

I thought that is what we were doing to start the year and right after AJ got hurt. Its lately I've noticed more of resorting to going back to Green to set up the pass. People know we have to air it out though. Despite some sloppy moments I think the passing game plans when we were out of backs and receivers was more potent then when we have guys healthy in the backfield. Sometimes forcing a hand helps see what works.

[Fox]

I've seen some criticism of the play call on the game deciding play on the boards and in the papers, I don't think it was that bad. On the play, hindsight says it was the wrong call, but in retrospect until the moment Williams caught the ball it didn't look so bad, IMO.

We sent a little extra pressure at Collins and I think it was Maddox was collapsing the inside of the pocket. Collins stepped out of the pressure and made the throw down the sideline, he wasn't under intense pressure but if he'd waited another couple ticks he probably would've been. The ball's going to Roydell Williams, who doesn't even have a half step on Dunta Robinson, our #1 CB. Turns out Collins and Williams made a play, it was a near perfect throw and Williams makes a great catch on his inside shoulder. As a D coordinator, up to the moment Williams makes the catch I don't think you're too upset with the play call. Pressure was coming and the Titans receiver was blanketed with your best corner. As others have mentioned, my only question is what was Hutchins doing? I only saw it on TV so I don't know, maybe he was concentrated on a different Titans receiver, wouldn't surprise me that much. I'd figure they'd give Faggins or Bennett safety help before Robinson. Could the DL have come up with a huge sack and saved the day? Yea, but even the best pass rushing D's only average 3-4 sacks a game, the percentages don't bode well for one of those to occur on the game-deciding play. Could the secondary have played better and caused a coverage sack? Maybe if they somehow doubled every receiver, I didn't see any Titans receivers running free.

For the first 3 quarters of the game it's pretty obvious we were horribly out coached and out played. But for those last 50 seconds when we had the lead, I don't think our coaches made any egregious errors in judgment, I just think the Titans made a play and we didn't.

[Double Barrel]

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

I don't disagree with anyone that says Mario isn't doing well right now. I just feel that we have to give him time at least. A season and a half isn't enough time to pass final judgement on Mario. I know you aren't one of the posters doing it. But I feel some are suggesting that since Mario is playing this way now that it will be like that for the rest of his career.

We'll see, and if he still is playing like a mediocre DE his 3rd and 4th season, I would begin to worry.

I think Mario will work out in the long run. I'm not predicting HoF or Pro Bowler, but I think he'll end up being a force when he figures out the position.

My rant is born of frustration. Our entire team seems to fall apart sometimes. This thread turned into a talk about our D, though, so that's why I was concentrating my thoughts.

We're ranked 20th against the run and have very little pass rush. We do not seem to be forcing turnovers and our coverage is suspect. In hindsight, it is amazing that they didn't break more when they kept bending.

Originally Posted by Hervoyel

The thing about not getting much pressure on a QB for most of the day is that you allow him to get comfortable. When you do get pressure late in the game for instance when you absolutely must have a stop to win then he's not going to come unglued when he sees it. He's going to stand in there like the comfortable, confident QB he's become over four quarters of football and carve you up. We've seen Kerry Collins a few times and we have always been able to rattle him in our previous meetings. Then he starts coughing up picks like crazy. Collins can be rattled into bad decisions. It doesn't look like we did much of that Sunday.

This is pretty much where I was going with it. Sack stats are not what this is about. It is the constant pressure on a QB that forces them into bad decisions and awkward passes. We just don't seem to collapse the pocket quick enough to rattle a QBs timing, and last game was no exception.

I probably drank too much 2-0 koolaide and let myself get out of a .500 mentality. So all of my thoughts are more a reflection of the letdown. I keep hoping we break the Houston jinx and win games like this one. I'll just have to keep on hoping, I guess.

[TexansSeminole]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

Sack stats are not what this is about. It is the constant pressure on a QB that forces them into bad decisions and awkward passes. We just don't seem to collapse the pocket quick enough to rattle a QBs timing, and last game was no exception.

You should stick to your instincts. Your intincts tell you that the line hasn't played up to expectations and it is true. We don't get this kind of necessary pressure very often.

I don't understand why people want to act like Mario is bulletproof and can never be criticized. Also, why is it that if someone says that Mario hasn't played all that well this season people interpret it as Mario is a horrible football player and deserves to be cut from the team forever? Some of you are just plain football dumb (not talkin about you DB).

[TexansSeminole]

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

This is why Sophmore players have slumps, because teams know who they are now so they are going to adjust accodingly.

I am not saying you shouldn't expect our Dline to dominate. Go ahead expect what you want. But IMO You are expecting too much from 1st year and 2nd year guys no matter WHERE they were picked. They are human too, they have to have solid experience and learn form their mistakes and learn to adjust to the NFL before they start to produce.

You act as if Mario gets double teamed every play because of his monster 4.5 sacks last year. I'm sorry but what are you talking about? The guy is blocked out of plays by tight ends sometimes. I like Mario, I think he is going to be a good player for us probably for awhile and I hope that he becomes a pro bowler but you've got to call things how they are at this point in time. You cannot make excuses for people ALL the time.

Now lets look at these 2nd year players and see why we expect more from Mario:

2006 NFL Draft:
#1 Overall: Mario Williams, 4.5 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks in 2007.
#13 Overall: Kamerion Wimbley, 11 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks and 1 FF in 2007.
#20 Overall: Tamba Hali, 8 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks in 2007.
#22 Overall: Manny Lawson, 2.5 sacks in 2006, 0 sacks in 2007 (injured for season in week 2 or 3 cant remember, only played 2 games.)
#32 Overall: Mathias Kiwanuka, 4 sacks in 2006, 4.5 sacks in 2007.
#63 Overall: Darryl Tapp, 3 sacks in 2006, 5.5 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#126 Overall: Elvis Dumervil, 8.5 sacks in 2006, 6 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#127 Overall: Ray Edwards, 3 sacks in 2006, 2 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#159 Overall: Mark Anderson (a backup), 12 sacks in 2006, 4 sacks and 1 FF in 2007.
#160 Overall: Brent Hawkins (a backup), 2 sacks in 2006, 1.5 sacks in 2007.

I picked these guys because they seem to have gotten the most PT since being drafted.

The only guys on this list with less career sacks than Mario is Manny Lawson, his old teammate, who had a season ending injury this season after only playing 2 games, Ray Edwards a guy picked #127 overall and a guy most people never heard of, and Brent Hawkins a backup in Jacksonville. They look pretty productive to me. Seems that Mario is having more trouble producing IN THE SACKS CATEGORY (which is what we are talking about here) than almost any of the others and he was picked before all of them. These stats don't include plays like interceptions and things of that nature that these other players have done. Mario has that fumble return for a touchdown. Some of these guys have multiple interceptions and touchdowns.

How come it didn't take Wimbley and Anderson any time before their rookie season to put up double digit sacks? Or how about Tamba Hali and Elvis Dumervil...how did they manage to get 8 and 8.5 sacks respectively in their rookie years? How come Anderson being a backup last year (probably still one this year) and having such a good season isn't having a sophomore slump? Same goes for Dumervil, why? Mario's stats from this year and last year seem to be pretty even. Where is this sophomore slump you were talking about? What is the difference between how these guys produce and how Mario produces?

Understand that I am not trying to bash Mario. I just dont understand how some people can act as if he is the most productive DE out of his class so we have to give him a break for not showing up consistantly. I figured it was time for a reality check...not time to bash anyone.

Furthermore responding to the second statement I bolded in your post, Amobi has had no problem producing in the sack column as a defensive tackle. He seems to be producing without "learning to adjust to the NFL" or "solid experience" and he is 20 years old! Younger than me for christ sakes. What was your point again?

[HoustonFrog]

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

You act as if Mario gets double teamed every play because of his monster 4.5 sacks last year. I'm sorry but what are you talking about? The guy is blocked out of plays by tight ends sometimes. I like Mario, I think he is going to be a good player for us probably for awhile and I hope that he becomes a pro bowler but you've got to call things how they are at this point in time. You cannot make excuses for people ALL the time.

Now lets look at these 2nd year players and see why we expect more from Mario:

2006 NFL Draft:
#1 Overall: Mario Williams, 4.5 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks in 2007.
#13 Overall: Kamerion Wimbley, 11 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks and 1 FF in 2007.
#20 Overall: Tamba Hali, 8 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks in 2007.
#22 Overall: Manny Lawson, 2.5 sacks in 2006, 0 sacks in 2007 (injured for season in week 2 or 3 cant remember, only played 2 games.)
#32 Overall: Mathias Kiwanuka, 4 sacks in 2006, 4.5 sacks in 2007.
#63 Overall: Darryl Tapp, 3 sacks in 2006, 5.5 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#126 Overall: Elvis Dumervil, 8.5 sacks in 2006, 6 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#127 Overall: Ray Edwards, 3 sacks in 2006, 2 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#159 Overall: Mark Anderson (a backup), 12 sacks in 2006, 4 sacks and 1 FF in 2007.
#160 Overall: Brent Hawkins (a backup), 2 sacks in 2006, 1.5 sacks in 2007.

I picked these guys because they seem to have gotten the most PT since being drafted.

The only guys on this list with less career sacks than Mario is Manny Lawson, his old teammate, who had a season ending injury this season after only playing 2 games, Ray Edwards a guy picked #127 overall and a guy most people never heard of, and Brent Hawkins a backup in Jacksonville. They look pretty productive to me. Seems that Mario is having more trouble producing IN THE SACKS CATEGORY (which is what we are talking about here) than almost any of the others and he was picked before all of them. These stats don't include plays like interceptions and things of that nature that these other players have done. Mario has that fumble return for a touchdown. Some of these guys have multiple interceptions and touchdowns.

How come it didn't take Wimbley and Anderson any time before their rookie season to put up double digit sacks? Or how about Tamba Hali and Elvis Dumervil...how did they manage to get 8 and 8.5 sacks respectively in their rookie years? How come Anderson being a backup last year (probably still one this year) and having such a good season isn't having a sophomore slump? Same goes for Dumervil, why? What is the difference between how these guys produce and how Mario produces?

Understand that I am not trying to bash Mario. I just dont understand how some people can act as if he is the most productive DE out of his class so we have to give him a break for not showing up consistantly. I figured it was time for a reality check...not time to bash anyone.

Nice post. I agree. I don't think Mario is a bust or horrible or anything like that but I think you have to look at what he has done and compare it to others that are producing as rookies and this year and stop making excuses for guys. I'm not sure if it is the mentailty of the organization because of guys like Carr and what happened but there is this knee-jerk thing going on where there are excuses for everyone. I mean we had a rookie come in and be the leader of our defense. Look at the reactions between 2-0 and now. There is always this "wait and see" attitude. To me that is a loser mentality. I'm ready to win and I'm ready for guys we picked to produce. Injuries hurt but this pat on the butt and on your way little trooper attitude just irks me sometimes.

[dtran04]

Unfortunately for Mario, all of this sack talk is probably getting to him. He constantly overruns plays and leaves his gap wide open. Last year, he was much better against the run.

[TexansSeminole]

Originally Posted by dtran04

Unfortunately for Mario, all of this sack talk is probably getting to him. He constantly overruns plays and leaves his gap wide open. Last year, he was much better against the run.

I think he is one of the best if not the best DE against the run to come out of that 2006 NFL draft, but the sacks will be how he can make a more explosive impact and will be how he is graded.

Last year I gave Mario the benifit of the doubt because of injury but this year I don't see much of an improvement. I thought I was going to see Mario get in the QBs face this year often enough to mess the QBs timing up, yet all I see from opposing QBs is rhythm when they play us.

[Runner]

I don't think Mario will ever perform near the level of his draft pick/salary. Is that his fault? No. Is it the team's fault? Yes. Wasted draft pick, wasted salary. They are not getting value for what they used to get him.

[The1ApplePie]

Sometimes I wish Al Saunders had kissed Carr's ass as much as Kubiak did

Saunders + Reggie/Lynch + AJ + Quinn/Schaub = The New Greatest Show on Turf

[MightyTExan]

This is not looking good to me people..................

(on if he will try to put C Chris White in the rotation this week) “No. I mean, (Mike) Flanagan’s doing a good job. Chris has gotten some snaps; he got some at the end of last week and will probably continue to get some snaps, but I think Mike’s played good enough for us to win and we’ve just all got to do a better job.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/St...?story_id=3836

[Runner]

Originally Posted by MightyTExan

This is not looking good to me people..................

(on if he will try to put C Chris White in the rotation this week) “No. I mean, (Mike) Flanagan’s doing a good job.

I haven't seen that "In Kubes We trust" signature lately either.