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Old 10-21-2007   #21
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

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Originally Posted by kiwitexansfan View Post
I really thought Pitts, Weary and Winston where the answer for us long term.

This years run game makes me quetion this. Or is A.Green that over done??
They can still be the answer ... you just have to change the question .
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Old 10-21-2007   #22
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

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Truth of the matter is they have been Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

Do tell where do you think the blame should be placed?
You want to use the Jekyll and Hyde analogy, fine, let's run with it. First two games where they won, McKinney was at center, A.J. was playing, and Green was playing, and the running game was working, I didn't see too many complaints about play calling.

Oh, but now that we're losing, McKinney's out for season, and now Flannery is now the center, A.J. is out, the running game is non-existant . . .

. . so it's the 'play calling' now, huh?
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Old 10-21-2007   #23
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

Is the OL just not physical enough ?

Is it a talent issue ?

Is Kubiak and Sherman trying to mix to much of the Bronco zone and Packer power styles together ?

Are Kubiak and Sherman way to loyal to guys at the end of their careers ?

Is it all the above ?

If we have a weanie OL ... does that affect our young DL ?
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Old 10-21-2007   #24
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

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Finally, when it is 3rd and goal and one yard to go, Salaam and Flanagan need to stand up and announce they formerly played for Kubiak and Sherman on other teams, possibly in lyrical fashion. 6 points, guaranteed.

Haiku!

I played for Sherman
When younger, stronger, and fast;
Kubiak for me
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Old 10-21-2007   #25
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

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You call that performance today by our OL "inconsistent"?

Well, IMO, using "inconsistent" to describe the OL's play today, is just looking for an excuse to lay the blame somewhere else.
After three quarters they were at 132 yards of total offense. there is no way to put lipstick on this pig. Spin it if you wish. They got beaten like the red headed no tallent step children that they are. The Wizzard's curtain has been pulled and you should know by now exactly what they are. There was some good news...there was a Putzier sighting today. He's back from whatever dog house Sherman has had him in. David Anderson...made a great play...droped a floater...made a great play. You're going to have to kill the guy before he quits. Even the #1 corner can be beat. Great throw, great catch, no one could of stoped that play. Time to let the rookie get toasted and learn. Everybody in the league's got the Petey Faggin's primer. Can Chris White snap the GD ball ? Cut Flanagan monday and scoop up anything that is breathing for a back up off the street. And if Sherman don't like it he can follow him out the door . Enough is enough. Empty the benches and let see what we got. We're not learning anything getting our brains beat out doing the same thing every week.
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Old 10-21-2007   #26
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

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I think literally one guy is safe to keep and put stock into on that line.

Eric Winston. That is it. That is the only guy that I hardly ever see beat and I think he will hold down that sopt for a long time to come.

Now Salaam...he has to go. Maybe he can be a leader, but he can do it on the bench or the inactive list, hell Kalu seems to do it. He is hurting this team and he's going to get Schaub killed out there. Pitts is alright, he isn't horrible but he isn't nothing to get excited about, same can be said with Weary but IMO a little bit better than Pitts. Flanagan falls in the same line as Salaam.

So yeah, one guy I feel for sure that can start for us next year and that is Winston. I agree that the playcalling isn't as bad as some make it seem. We can't run the ball so Kubiak is being limited because on running plays our Oline is getting handled.
Interestingly enough, Salaam was removed from the jacksonville jaguars lineup for this same reason.

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Originally Posted by kiwitexansfan View Post
I really thought Pitts, Weary and Winston where the answer for us long term.

This years run game makes me quetion this. Or is A.Green that over done??
The problem with the o-line is as much A. Green's as it is the quarterbacks' or the wide receivers'. We have second-stringers playing at the two most crucial spots on the line. What else could be expected? Until LT and Center are fixed, they will continue to have these problems.
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Old 10-21-2007   #27
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

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When I watched the game, it was obvious the O line was completely dominated by the Titans D-line. The running game was shutdown. Schaub was getting no time to throw and no protection. Give the Titans D some credit. Their front D is awesome, along with out OL not being very good.

But I see that some are still blaming bad playcalling. So here's the question.

What kinds of plays can be called to offset getting beat in the trenches?
Getting the ball out of his hand needs to be the QB's high priority.

Schaub was holding the ball too long and scanning the field, looking for plays to develop...rather than bobbing forward into the pocket, therefore he was getting eaten by the dlinemen rushing the edge(s) and collapsing the pocket.

Sage was doing the same thing, too, until a light went off in someone's head (Kubiak? Sage? Who?) and BINGO! we return to first-game form where it was bop-bop-bop, ball out.

Result? Completions.

And when Sage DID make a deep drop, he was bobbing forward away from the pressure and stepping into his throws, completing passes.

I don't know what it was (playcalling, players, or both), but there has been something going on with someone--And I think it was the QB--since week 3.

Because it was night and day from quarters 1-3 and then into the 4th quarter where we looked like the Texans that performed well in weeks 1 and 2.

Hate on me all you want, but since you asked what the problem is/was...I'll step off the "bad playcalling" soap box, since the playcalling was better today than it had been the past 3 weeks, and I'll step up and say that Sage might have stumbled upon something when he began getting into a rhythm and getting rid of the ball no matter what.

Schaub has recently looked slow getting away from center, IMO, and the fact that Flanagan is in place of McKinney is...well...not good for us.

It's just a whole lot of things coming together: AJ out, Green out for so long, Mathis and JJ in-and-out and unpredictable, Shaky QB decision-making, some weird playcalling for the past few weeks, and then BAM! we get jolted to life out of nowhere.

Maybe this is the end of the slide. I dunno...

But today was the most bizarre day I have seen in a long time.

To almost win that game, IMO, was a miracle all by itself. I wish we would have won, but I am actually glad that we at least showed heart and didn't lay down and quit like a Capers team would have.

That counts for something.
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Old 10-21-2007   #28
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

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Getting the ball out of his hand needs to be the QB's high priority.
Oh, oh! I know this one! Three-step drops, quick hitches, and WR screens, right?

This O-line couldn't protect on a 5-step drop and they aren't doing much better this year. Same line from last year, indeed.
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Old 10-21-2007   #29
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

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Originally Posted by Honoring Earl 34 View Post
a) Is the OL just not physical enough ?

b) Is it a talent issue ?

c) Is Kubiak and Sherman trying to mix to much of the Bronco zone and Packer power styles together ?

d) Are Kubiak and Sherman way to loyal to guys at the end of their careers ?

e) Is it all the above ?

f) If we have a weanie OL ... does that affect our young DL ?
a) If it is a requirement that an o-line just blows people off the ball, then no they aren't. However, some of the other questions may answer why they can't perform as a finesse line.

b) Most assuredly. The problem is, this coaching staff has not addressed the talent issue very well.

Exhibit A. They paid Jordan Black $1M to sign on the dotted line. Fans were ecstatic - he started for a play-off team last year! Then the coaches saw him in camp and the fans saw him in the pre-season. Isn't he even an option to take over the starting role with Salaam playing so badly? Bad personnel move.

Exhibit B. Spencer went down last year after 1.5 games and they inserted their 3rd best LT from training camp, Salaam, into the starting role. They then picked up Brad Bedell to back him up because he could play guard too. The 15 minutes he played last year he gave up a sack or two, and he never saw the field again. A limping, well under 100% Salaam was preferable to the back-up they signed for no apparent on-field reason.

c) That seems to be the case; there has certainly been a lot of discussion about it.

d) Yes, but only if they played for them in Denver or Green Bay. Flanagan is so bad they need to move White in. If he is too bad to play* then move Weary to center and put in someone else at guard (Black? - he's supposed to play multiple positions). For a team that builds its roster with swing players, they do little moving around when the line if failing.

*If White is too bad to play in front of Flanagan, then make him Exhibit C in b) above.

e) I guess so, but maybe not a) if they were a talented finesse line.

f) I don't know.
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Old 10-21-2007   #30
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

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Getting the ball out of his hand needs to be the QB's high priority.

Schaub was holding the ball too long and scanning the field, looking for plays to develop...rather than bobbing forward into the pocket, therefore he was getting eaten by the dlinemen rushing the edge(s) and collapsing the pocket.

Sage was doing the same thing, too, until a light went off in someone's head (Kubiak? Sage? Who?) and BINGO! we return to first-game form where it was bop-bop-bop, ball out.

Result? Completions.

And when Sage DID make a deep drop, he was bobbing forward away from the pressure and stepping into his throws, completing passes.

I don't know what it was (playcalling, players, or both), but there has been something going on with someone--And I think it was the QB--since week 3.

Because it was night and day from quarters 1-3 and then into the 4th quarter where we looked like the Texans that performed well in weeks 1 and 2.

Hate on me all you want, but since you asked what the problem is/was...I'll step off the "bad playcalling" soap box, since the playcalling was better today than it had been the past 3 weeks, and I'll step up and say that Sage might have stumbled upon something when he began getting into a rhythm and getting rid of the ball no matter what.

Schaub has recently looked slow getting away from center, IMO, and the fact that Flanagan is in place of McKinney is...well...not good for us.

It's just a whole lot of things coming together: AJ out, Green out for so long, Mathis and JJ in-and-out and unpredictable, Shaky QB decision-making, some weird playcalling for the past few weeks, and then BAM! we get jolted to life out of nowhere.

Maybe this is the end of the slide. I dunno...

But today was the most bizarre day I have seen in a long time.

To almost win that game, IMO, was a miracle all by itself. I wish we would have won, but I am actually glad that we at least showed heart and didn't lay down and quit like a Capers team would have.

That counts for something.
Interesting observations about the quarterback - holding the ball too long last year was what was blamed for all those sacks. Certainly not the line.

And in the first few weeks of the 2007 season, the Texans offense did very well with a lightning-release from a much-improved quarterback. He did struggle when he took anything more than his speedy attack.

I've had this insane idea that maybe if the line was better, the quarterback would have more time than is needed in a lightning-release attack. He could have the kind of time Joey Harrington and Mark Brunell have had when their respective teams played the Texans. He might not be taken out of the game. But this is probably crazy talk, blaming the line for these problems...

So I agree with you completely, as long as everything is done to circumvent the line (e.g., asking the quarterback to finish his end of the job before the defensive linemen can take three steps), the Texans will excel. But in games where the quarterback takes a more "normal" time, it will be very hard to win.
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Old 10-21-2007   #31
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

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Interesting observations about the quarterback - holding the ball too long last year was what was blamed for all those sacks. Certainly not the line.

And in the first few weeks of the 2007 season, the Texans offense did very well with a lightning-release from a much-improved quarterback. He did struggle when he took anything more than his speedy attack.

I've had this insane idea that maybe if the line was better, the quarterback would have more time than is needed in a lightning-release attack. He could have the kind of time Joey Harrington and Mark Brunell have had when their respective teams played the Texans. He might not be taken out of the game. But this is probably crazy talk, blaming the line for these problems...

So I agree with you completely, as long as everything is done to circumvent the line (e.g., asking the quarterback to finish his end of the job before the defensive linemen can take three steps), the Texans will excel. But in games where the quarterback takes a more "normal" time, it will be very hard to win.
Well, let's just go down to O Lines R Us and get us some good linemen OK?

Oh wait...we can't do that. We'll have to just wait and address it after the season.

Afraid we won't address it after this season? That's actually a logical fear to have, I admit it as much.

But here's the deal: Due to a complete and utter lack of management by the previous HC and GM...we had too many holes to fill in too short a time.

We HAD to get the d line shored up, and we have. I doubt we see a 1st day pick on d line in 2008.

We HAD a pretty good LT named Charles Spencer until he went down. IIRC, we drafted o line back-to-back in the third round to get Spencer and Winston. Winston is doing OK, IMO. Spencer in there would help a little.

Other teams are locking up their good o linemen, which is smart. We didn't sell the farm to get Orlando Pace...aren't you glad? He's sitting on a couch and costing HIS team a lot of cap space, not ours.

Perhaps we can pull a 49ers and spend big on o line the same way they spent big on Nate Clements.

Until then, the best we can do is do what got us the win in weeks 1 and 2: Get the ball into our WRs hands--3 and 4 WR sets, and get it into their hands so they can make the plays.

If that's MY fault for seeing that THAT'S the only thing that's getting us anywhere, then continue to bash me.

Everybody wants to know what we can do? We can do what we can do. And what we can do, right now, is to have Kubiak stop pretending that this offense is going to turn a corner and become some powerhouse team that can do whatever it wants as long as we "wish and hope and believe enough in it."

My ability to say "Hey! Get rid of the ball, it's been working when you DO it.." is not also a statement by me that says I think we should stop scrutinizing the o line.

I'm not THAT blind or ignorant.

But if you want to stop the bleeding, if you want to see us stop getting steamrolled early and often in games...well, maybe we should play to our strengths and then attempt to address this fractured oline when we CAN.

Crying about the oline is not going to make the coaches and the GM go "OH! Let's cut 'em all and go find us some good olinemen! They might be near the aisle where RBs and DCs are located..."

Free agency is dead. The draft is where you have to build your team at every position, and then you LOCK UP those guys and keep them like Indy does.

We've had two years, and I think Kubiak/Rick Smith have done all they can do in terms of what you can do in two drafts and virtually no free money to wave at free agents.

Until 2008, we gotta' get rid of the ball and play hide-and-go-seek if we want to NOT get slaughtered.

Sorry if this peeves people off, but the other solution is to (A) pretend we can do what other teams do on gameday, which we cannot...or (B) go out and get us some big name free agents, which we cannot until we get the free'd up cap space.
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Old 10-21-2007   #32
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

One last thing:

They showed an on-screen graphic of Okoye and Mario, two guys who are 20 and 22.

That means we potentially have two guys on the d line who will be there for 10 years if they stay healthy.

I have been doubting that the Mario pick was the right pick...but today, it DID bring me some sort of hope in this thought--We can afford to let Mario and Okoye mature at whatever rate it's going to take them, and we can hopefully therefore spend draft picks and fre agency money upon o linemen.

You have to start somewhere, and we chose to start at D when Kubiak took over. You gotta pick ONE, and we picked D.

Maybe they're smart enough to stick with a plan and hopefully target oline for the next 2-3 years. Maybe.
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Old 10-21-2007   #33
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

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You call that performance today by our OL "inconsistent"?

Well, IMO, using "inconsistent" to describe the OL's play today, is just looking for an excuse to lay the blame somewhere else.

It was absolutely inconsistent... for most of the game, they were horrible, and every once in a while they slipped up and made a decent play... if they can just eliminate the odd decent play, they will be consistently horrible...
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Old 10-22-2007   #34
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

on the first drive the play calling definitley sucked. something like 3 consecutive plays to jacoby? i know our running game sucks with mckinney out,but with jj starting i had a good feeling where the ball was going.we all know that G.K.scripts out the first 15-20 plays. i dont like the line of scrimmage sideline toss three times in a row! especially to a guy that hasnt played a whole lot recently.i mean what were we gonna do Catch them Off guard with our PLAYMAKER.
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Old 10-22-2007   #35
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

I just skimmed the thread so hopefully this has not been asked but what is everyone's take on moving Winston back to LT? He played there in college and we have never found one. He has looked good out there and I love his fire. When Schaub got nailed, he was all in the defender's face getting mad and letting him have it I guess for what he thought was a dirty hit. So he's got a nice mean streak and has done a solid job. Then again, do we change him when he's been doing so well at RT?
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Old 10-22-2007   #36
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

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You want to use the Jekyll and Hyde analogy, fine, let's run with it. First two games where they won, McKinney was at center, A.J. was playing, and Green was playing, and the running game was working, I didn't see too many complaints about play calling.

Oh, but now that we're losing, McKinney's out for season, and now Flannery is now the center, A.J. is out, the running game is non-existant . . .

. . so it's the 'play calling' now, huh?
I see your trying to egg me on by twisting what I'm saying. You asked if play calling could overcome being mishandled. I said Yes. You neither asked if that was our case nor did I say it would help us.

We have issues all over the field. Is play calling going to overcome our weaknesses? A little bit. At the and of the day we just don't have talent all over the field and great play calling like the big boys do.
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Old 10-22-2007   #37
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

Without looking in detail at the rest of the thread, the answer is no. Superior talent and execution always trumps playcalling. The attitude of fans is an oversimplified notion that this play did not work, so just calling another one will be better. More often than not, it is not just true.
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Old 10-22-2007   #38
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

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You want to use the Jekyll and Hyde analogy, fine, let's run with it. First two games where they won, McKinney was at center, A.J. was playing, and Green was playing, and the running game was working, I didn't see too many complaints about play calling.

Oh, but now that we're losing, McKinney's out for season, and now Flannery is now the center, A.J. is out, the running game is non-existant . . .

. . so it's the 'play calling' now, huh?
Hm.. I would say that 'playcalling' is the coaches inability to change the gameplan and the plays called because of our injury-related shortcomings.
The situation changes, respond and redesign our offense so it fits the actual players on the field.

We suffer in having no real running threat (OL, RB, calls... whatever), but why is it that when we put our minds to it, we can grind out alot of yards in the passing game, even when defenses expect it?

I want us to come out shooting since it seems to be the only part of our offense that works good. Keep shooting until we have an honest defense, and then mix a bit of rushing in there. One thing we know is that despite AJ being out, we're NOT short on qualified hands all wanting to catch the ball. That is an advantage, utilize that advantage through playcalling.
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Old 10-22-2007   #39
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

Here we are in our 6th year and we are still bitching about the offensive line. Well, you know something, we should, because it isn't very good. Neither is the running back position or the obvious holes in our secondary. And despite all the talent on the defensive line, they seldom do anything heroic.

This is not a playoff team. We are still saddled with a lot of crap players that couldn't make the practice squad of another NFL team.

But, hey, at least we aren't Miami or St. Louis. Things could be worse, you know.
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Old 10-22-2007   #40
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Default Re: Can playcalling overcome a manhandled OL?

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Use their agressiveness against them with counters, screens and quick passes. However our lack of explosion at RB and a DNP'ing AJ makes those things hard to do.


Perfect answer. I think the RB problem is the main culprit though. Ahman doesn't trust that knee, so those explosions and sweet cuts he made in the first 2 games are not there anymore.
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