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Old 10-16-2007   #1
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Default Somebody explain it to me

because I must be stupid. When Andre Davis fumbles the ball out of the end zone, what exactly is the reasoning behind the rule that awards the ball to the defense? If he fumbled out of bounds anywhere else on the field, wouldn't the ball still belong to us at the point where it went out of bounds? I'm not suggesting we should've been awarded the ball in the end zone (duh), but I don't quite understand why Jax got the ball. I'm not questioning the existence of the rule, merely the reasoning behind it.
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Old 10-16-2007   #2
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

If you fumble the ball nobody has possession of it at all and whomever recovers it has possession.

If the ball goes out of bounds, the last team to have possession gets to retain possession.

If you fumble out of either end zone, instead of the offense keeping possession as in the out of bounds play, the defense gets the ball instead....so if you fumble the ball out of either end zone you basically forefit your possession.

The ball fumbled out of your own end zone it is a safety, the defense gets 2 points and they get the ball on a kick.

If you fumble the ball into the opponent end zone it's their ball at the 20 since it was fumbled out of their defensive end zone. The only way a team can score points is to reach your end zone with the ball or for you to fumble the ball out of the end zone you are protecting.
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Old 10-16-2007   #3
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
If you fumble the ball into the opponent end zone it's their ball at the 20 since it was fumbled out of their defensive end zone.
I think the real question wasn't what is the rule, but why is it the rule? I know that is the correct rule, but it does seem in contrast with the normal out of bounds procedures. Fumble out at the one inch line, you keep it at the one inch line. Seems like a more consistent rule for fumbling out the endzone would be to put it on the one or heck penalize it a little and stick it on the five.
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Old 10-16-2007   #4
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I think the real question wasn't what is the rule, but why is it the rule? I know that is the correct rule, but it does seem in contrast with the normal out of bounds procedures. Fumble out at the one inch line, you keep it at the one inch line. Seems like a more consistent rule for fumbling out the endzone would be to put it on the one or heck penalize it a little and stick it on the five.
I think it should remain the rule. If you fumble like Andre Davis did you don't deserve to get the ball back. Turning it over in the redzone has killed us all year since we seem to do it once a game.
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Old 10-16-2007   #5
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

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Originally Posted by Leahmic223 View Post
I think it should remain the rule. If you fumble like Andre Davis did you don't deserve to get the ball back. Turning it over in the redzone has killed us all year since we seem to do it once a game.
That really isn't a reason for the rule. Why would the team deserve it more if he had fumbled a foot sooner and it bounced out in front of the pylon? This has nothing to do with Davis or the Texans.
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Old 10-16-2007   #6
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Why would the team deserve it more if he had fumbled a foot sooner and it bounced out in front of the pylon?
EXACTLY what I meant! Why?
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Old 10-16-2007   #7
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I think the real question wasn't what is the rule, but why is it the rule? I know that is the correct rule, but it does seem in contrast with the normal out of bounds procedures. Fumble out at the one inch line, you keep it at the one inch line. Seems like a more consistent rule for fumbling out the endzone would be to put it on the one or heck penalize it a little and stick it on the five.
Not sure but I've always thought of the end zones as a special place and you have to have possession of the ball or it is a turn over. I think it is a good rule. Control the ball in the end zone or lose it.
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Old 10-16-2007   #8
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
That really isn't a reason for the rule. Why would the team deserve it more if he had fumbled a foot sooner and it bounced out in front of the pylon? This has nothing to do with Davis or the Texans.
Its too generous to the offense that if a player happens to fumble at the 1 yard line and it goes out of bounds then they just get the ball again.

Not only that the endzone is a different part of the field, so we can't treat it as normal out of bounds fumble. Just like you get hit in the endzone the defense gets 2 points, so normally it seems right that if you fumble it out of bounds in the endzone the opponent gets the ball at the 20. Its also like how if the ball is kneeled back there its to the 20, if the kicker or punter kicks it out and goes out of bounds in the endzone it goes to the 20, it seems pretty consistent to me IMO.

I was just saying, its a good rule I think its consistent, besides teams shouldn't fumble in that area any ways.
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Old 10-17-2007   #9
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

I don't have a problem at all with giving up 2 points and the ball when you fumble in your own end-zone, because you have already put yourself in that position by getting backed up to that end-zone in the first place, but I agree with these guys about fumbling in your opponents end-zone. Maybe AD deserves it, but the team as a whole is punished way too much for a fumble that wouldn't have even hurt them if it had gone out of bounds before entering the end-zone. I think it's a dumb rule. It was made a long time ago, because it brings more excitement to the game, but it isn't fair. Letting players do a lot of things would add excitement to the game, but many of them are unfair, unhealthy, dangerous, etc. In today's NFL, too much is at stake and too many people care too much to continue keeping rules that are unfair to the team when they arise, even if the individual player deserves it.
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Old 10-17-2007   #10
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

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I don't have a problem at all with giving up 2 points and the ball when you fumble in your own end-zone, because you have already put yourself in that position by getting backed up to that end-zone in the first place, but I agree with these guys about fumbling in your opponents end-zone. Maybe AD deserves it, but the team as a whole is punished way too much for a fumble that wouldn't have even hurt them if it had gone out of bounds before entering the end-zone. I think it's a dumb rule. It was made a long time ago, because it brings more excitement to the game, but it isn't fair. Letting players do a lot of things would add excitement to the game, but many of them are unfair, unhealthy, dangerous, etc. In today's NFL, too much is at stake and too many people care too much to continue keeping rules that are unfair to the team when they arise, even if the individual player deserves it.
why is it a dumb rule? Once that ball leaves your hands you no longer own it even if your offense is on the field. It's anyone's ball...and if it trickles out of the end zone it seems fair to me that the defense gets it. Control the ball in the end zone or lose it. I find it humorus that you guys only want to change the rule because we were on the bad side of that...if it was reversed most of you guys would be calling the Jags crybabies and to get over it.
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Old 10-17-2007   #11
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
why is it a dumb rule? Once that ball leaves your hands you no longer own it even if your offense is on the field. It's anyone's ball...and if it trickles out of the end zone it seems fair to me that the defense gets it. Control the ball in the end zone or lose it. I find it humorus that you guys only want to change the rule because we were on the bad side of that...if it was reversed most of you guys would be calling the Jags crybabies and to get over it.
This is how disagreements go on and on. You are making an assumption without proof. I know that I for one am not disagreeing with the rule just because it hurt us this time around--although it's true that I would be much less likely to bring up my disagreement with the rule.

I think we just have a disagreement about what is fair in our favorite sport. I think a team that fumbles after going all the way down-field should not be punished more than they would for doing it at mid-field (assuming that the balls is not recovered by the D in all situations). You think the end-zone makes it a totally different situation, and that it's fair.

I also think that not having a salary cap would be unfair, but it would sure help the Texans. I still wouldn't think it was fair, even if I was happy about it.
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Old 10-17-2007   #12
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

Dunno if anyone else remembers, but Jabar Gaffney did exactly the same thing against the same team in Reliant in 2004 ? Same end of the field, same
side of the EZ. Differnce is we ended up winning that game in spite of Gaffneys screw-up.
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Old 10-17-2007   #13
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

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Originally Posted by HJam72 View Post
This is how disagreements go on and on. You are making an assumption without proof. I know that I for one am not disagreeing with the rule just because it hurt us this time around--although it's true that I would be much less likely to bring up my disagreement with the rule.

I think we just have a disagreement about what is fair in our favorite sport. I think a team that fumbles after going all the way down-field should not be punished more than they would for doing it at mid-field (assuming that the balls is not recovered by the D in all situations). You think the end-zone makes it a totally different situation, and that it's fair.

I also think that not having a salary cap would be unfair, but it would sure help the Texans. I still wouldn't think it was fair, even if I was happy about it.
I think they should be punished by turning over the ball. That Jag player for example made a terrific play, and when ever the offense gets into the redzone the D's mentality becomes this "Turn the ball over or give them 3 points." That's every defense mentality in the red zone and if the offense IMO turns the ball over in that area, they don't deserve to get the ball back at the 1 nonetheless to most likely punch it in through the ground.

Also the endzone is a special place. If you get a INT in there and tackled within it goes to the 20 for your offense. It doesn't go to the spot where you were tackled.

I think it is fair and consistent.
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Old 10-17-2007   #14
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

Yes, the 20 yard line thing is consistent, if you're going to give the D the ball. I just don't think they should get the ball unless they actually recover a fumble or pick off a pass. JMO, I guess.
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Old 10-17-2007   #15
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

I think the rule is 'fair' (i.e. fumbling into the endzone = change of possession), but the ball should be placed at the five yard line instead of the 20, IMO. When the defense recovers a fumble, they get it at the spot of recovery. I think it would be more consistent to give the endzone fumble closer to the spot, as a change of possession + 20 yards seems too much of a penalty.

But, it is the endzone, so the magical kingdom might carry extra weight.
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Old 10-17-2007   #16
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

I think it would make more sense to give the offense the ball back at the 20 like a touchback but they retain possession and the the next down. So if that was second down, it would be 3rd and goal at the 20. Its a penalty for fumbling it into the endzone, ala the Raiders and Dave Casper, yet not so harsh. I may be wrong but I think the rule came into effect because of plays like above. Fumbling forward in the endzone to another player. I just think my rule is more appropriate.
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Old 10-17-2007   #17
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

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Not sure but I've always thought of the end zones as a special place and you have to have possession of the ball or it is a turn over. I think it is a good rule. Control the ball in the end zone or lose it.

I agree.
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Old 10-17-2007   #18
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

I think its to prevent people from "fumbling" the ball on purpose forward for 50 yards and getting the ball on the 1 yard line
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Old 10-17-2007   #19
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

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I think its to prevent people from "fumbling" the ball on purpose forward for 50 yards and getting the ball on the 1 yard line
That is what I thought above...I think it is from the infamous Raider/Dave Casper kick and bobble down the field. I still think it is lame and there other ways to penalize.
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Old 10-17-2007   #20
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Default Re: Somebody explain it to me

anytime you fumble out of bounds, the ball is place at the spot it went out of bounds at except inside the 20 so that fumbles arent intentional.

so if you fumble and the ball goes out of bounds in the end zone because there is no possession its like a punt or kickoff, its a touchback.

if we punt it and the recieving team never touches the ball, even though they havent taken possession of the ball it is still a touchback.

the exact same cenario holds up on kickoffs that go out of the end zone even though the recieving team never actually gained possession.

i think the simplest explanation is that anytime the ball goes out of bounds in your end zone its a safety, any time the ball goes out of bounds in your opponents end zone its a touch back. always consitent no matter the situation.
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