3-4 defense

ok, watch some more football. Rant and rave all you want about the 3-4 (which is what you are *****ing about in the 1st place), but you can't deny the success of the scheme in the last few years. Care to explain why the Patriots use it? If it's the personnel you are questioniing then question them, not the scheme. So we put 1 man on the front line with Deloach and take out Foreman, wow, yea, that makes all the difference. My point is that you have no idea what your are talking about, especially going through 8-9 threads now of your reaching for excuses. Why don't you thow in the kitchen sink, that seems to be the problem with our team too. Guys just aren't getting the needed water from the kitchen sink.

[Number19]

On the post game show, it was mentioned that Walker is no where close to being the player he was 2 yrs ago. It was also said that Paine and Smith are not highly regarded as pass rushers; their strength is in stopping the run.

The 34 demands that the DL put pressure on the QB from up the middle. Our first round pick next year should address this area of weakness.

I agree with Vinny that we need to address our LB's. Use our second round pick to address this need, but it all starts up front.

[Vinny]

Your pass rush is supposed to come from the Linebackers in this scheme. As an example, Gary Walker went to the probowl with 6 sacks in this very same 3-4 defense.

3-4 linemen are supposed to create push up the middle and take up blockers.

3-4 linemen are all 2-gap players. 2-gap players don't get many sacks.

[BornOrange]

Originally Posted by Vinny

Your pass rush is supposed to come from the Linebackers in this scheme. As an example, Gary Walker went to the probowl with 6 sacks in this very same 3-4 defense.

3-4 linemen are supposed to create push up the middle and take up blockers.

3-4 linemen are all 2-gap players. 2-gap players don't get many sacks.

Actually, the linemen need to collapse the pocket and bring some heat up the middle for the 3-4 defense to work. The LB's get the big sack numbers, but that is at least partly due to the QB getting flushed out of the pocket by the DL's and the LB's finishing him off.

Back to the original theme of this thread, it would be incredibly stupid to try to switch to a 4-3 in the middle of the season. The Texans have the personnel for a 3-4 and it would take at least one offseason full of change (and probably more) to successfully switch to a 4-3. Then expect a full season of players adjusting to a new role and to playing with new teammates.

It hasn't been the scheme, it has been the execution of the scheme. Playing against the Colts today was a bad time to have poor execution, because Manning can carve up a defense like few other QB's in the history of the game. In fact, Manning is probably playing better right now than any QB has ever played. By comparison, playing next week against Favre might be like a walk in the park after playing against Manning. I certainly hope so.

Lastly, Rod Wright will not be declaring for the draft. He has been hampered by a bad ankle all year and has not had a chance to show just how good he can be. Also, Longhorns don't leave early.

[georgewashington]

here comes my two cents for the day on the linebackers. Foreman got smoked in coverage quite a bit today. Babin played pretty well, and had a good play on the tightend on that out route and tackled him for no gain. Sharper is fine. Wong may have been a little off of his usual, but he did alright. Peek came in and played well, he kept contain and made a tackle at the line on james' cut back inside the 10, he had a couple good coverages, and he made a great pick in coverage. I think that he has shown that he could play more than the 4th quarter. i think something, especially in games like today where the offense stunk, capers and teh coaches need to learn from other teams and rotate players. Maybe our LB's get burnt cuz we do not rotate them at all during the game. Complain all you want that the LBs arent doing well or whatever, especially all the people who are peek critics on stopping the run (which he did today, and in his pass rush he closed the pocket without being up field), but maybe we have some talent that is being hindered by lack of playing time, and lack of breaks for the starters. Our linebackers are gonna get burnt sometime if they are playing every down and dropping into coverage so much against these passing teams.

[beerlover]

Originally Posted by SESupergenius

ok, watch some more football. Rant and rave all you want about the 3-4 (which is what you are *****ing about in the 1st place), but you can't deny the success of the scheme in the last few years. Care to explain why the Patriots use it? If it's the personnel you are questioniing then question them, not the scheme. So we put 1 man on the front line with Deloach and take out Foreman, wow, yea, that makes all the difference. My point is that you have no idea what your are talking about, especially going through 8-9 threads now of your reaching for excuses. Why don't you thow in the kitchen sink, that seems to be the problem with our team too. Guys just aren't getting the needed water from the kitchen sink.

I mean whats up with Why don't you thow in the kitchen sink, that seems to be the problem with our team too. Guys just aren't getting the needed water from the kitchen sink

In reponse to other intelligent posts (thankyou) it would be silly to change in mid season to the 4-3 you are absolutley correct. Nor am I advocating abandonment of the 3-4 just the re-tooling. But while the Texans re-tool why not adjust to the hand thats been dealt. Move to the 4-3 with Babin on the line & Peek as the OLB. Use all the tools available to try and win games. Thats all I'm saying.

The point about Wright is well taken Born. I don't doubt at all what you said is the truth, what seems apparent though is the ineffectivness of the current personel (coaching, schemes, injurys etc....) to stop opposing offenses. Maybe Indy is a juggernaut but the Broncos? Oh yeah I think this is called venting

First you say Posted

Originally Posted by beerlover

Coaching has to adjust to their players strength, we need to shift to a 4-3.

Then you say

Originally Posted by beerlover

Nor am I advocating abandonment of the 3-4 just the re-tooling. But while the Texans re-tool why not adjust to the hand thats been dealt. Move to the 4-3 with Babin on the line & Peek as the OLB. Use all the tools available to try and win games. Thats all I'm saying.

That is the best impersonation of John Kerry I have ever seen. Classic.

So lets say you fix all of this, can we still beat the Colts by only scoring 14 points?? Is it just me or are you grasping at anything that moves.

[wolf123]

We have the tools to have a dominate 3-4 defense all we need is a few more playmakers.
DL- a young stud dt that can stop the run and get after the passer.
NT- a big run stuffer who is also quick enough to be effective on passing downs.
Middle linebacker- Jamie sharper deserves to play with someone as fast and good as him, such as a ahmad brooks or derrick johnson.

With the new people on the d-line it will make it alot easier for the olb to show how good they really are.

[rhc564]

If our linemen are not pressuring the QB and our line backers are
having to drop back in pass coverage, where is the pressure on the QB
going to come from? Also, how is it every team we play can pressure our
QB SO MUCH but we can't return the same?,,,just wondering

In this game in particular we just were not blitzing on 3rd down. I have no reason for that but it seems that in several games when we don't have a good blitzing scheme on 3rd down the other team converts them. And those 3rd down conversions were killer for us today.

[Vinny]

Different linebackers drop into coverage depending on the call. In the 3-4 opposing teams don't know where the 4th pass rusher is coming from, as contrasted to a 4-3 where you have all 4 down lineman coming on each play.

[georgewashington]

exactly, the scheme is fine, its just how the team played. The DBs werent covering anyone so they couldnt blitz, we had to drop LBs back into coverage a lot. Honestly, i think they did pretty well in coverage and many times you would see them chasing down the wideouts that burned the DBs all the way to the endzone. Wheres the safetys and CBs?

[beerlover]

The Texans are too predictable, thats why the game planning agaisnt us has been so successful, I'm not sure why its become so obvious (could be all the injurys on the line) but you have to admit they are taking full advantage of it each week.

[Porky]

I'm not a big fan of running the 3-4 fulltime. NE runs all kinds of formations. They are not a 3-4 only team. I prefer a 4-3, and not all of my preference is based on stuff happening on the field, or the scheme itself. It just seems to me you have to make too many "projections" in the college draft. Some guys can't make the convversion. The 3-4 is also a more complicated scheme. LEt's face it, most of these guys aren't brain surgeons. I think there are maybe 1-2 colleges employing the 3-4, so you end up churning draft picks looking for one Kevin Greene. I would rather us move to a 4-3. Peek could be a pass rush specialst in the mold of Freeney. And Babin is good enough to hold up as an every down lineman. Take away the coverage responsibilties from these guys, and let them rush the passer.

Having said all that, it really doesn't matter what scheme they are running if people aren't hustling ala Deloach..

[TheOgre]

Lets switch to the 1-2-8 defense. We can spend our first four picks on DB's and go from there.

[V Man]

I also don't think it is the scheme, but the personal. Maybe it is time to look at Wong on the inside, and try Peek (this should make GWashington happy, or Anderson at the outside). I know Peek struggled against the run in preseason, but maybe with more PT, he'll learn to step up. I know Wong is having a pretty good year on the right side, but several people have said they thought he would be a step up for Foreman on the inside. Let's find out before the season ends, then we'll know more about what we have and what we need at LB for next years draft.

[beerlover]

Originally Posted by Porky

I'm not a big fan of running the 3-4 fulltime. NE runs all kinds of formations. They are not a 3-4 only team. I prefer a 4-3, and not all of my preference is based on stuff happening on the field, or the scheme itself. It just seems to me you have to make too many "projections" in the college draft. Some guys can't make the convversion. The 3-4 is also a more complicated scheme. LEt's face it, most of these guys aren't brain surgeons. I think there are maybe 1-2 colleges employing the 3-4, so you end up churning draft picks looking for one Kevin Greene. I would rather us move to a 4-3. Peek could be a pass rush specialst in the mold of Freeney. And Babin is good enough to hold up as an every down lineman. Take away the coverage responsibilties from these guys, and let them rush the passer.

Having said all that, it really doesn't matter what scheme they are running if people aren't hustling ala Deloach..

well said Porky!

"NE runs all kinds of formations" that was my point. The fact the Texans are thin when ever the Big 3 are out (at one point in yesterdays game all of them where hurting, lucky they all returned but I'm not sure they had a choice or how effective they were) screams for making adjustments, meaning maybe abandoning the 3-4 UNTIL the players who can run it return.

[georgewashington]

Originally Posted by V Man

I also don't think it is the scheme, but the personal. Maybe it is time to look at Wong on the inside, and try Peek (this should make GWashington happy, or Anderson at the outside). I know Peek struggled against the run in preseason, but maybe with more PT, he'll learn to step up. I know Wong is having a pretty good year on the right side, but several people have said they thought he would be a step up for Foreman on the inside. Let's find out before the season ends, then we'll know more about what we have and what we need at LB for next years draft.

that would make me happy, i would be happy if they at least did that one or two series a game. There isnt a need for a drastic switch of everything right away, but i think peek showed yesterday he has gotten better at the run and in the pass. Wong was a good MLB at minn. so why not use it to at least get some fresh legs out there. Plus the need for this team is not LBs if we could get wong backin teh middle. And does anyone else notice that our Dline seems to have one person get hurt every series?

There hasn't been a 4-3 or 3-4 yet that has stopped the Colts offense. It's very myopic to think that it's just the Texans' 3-4 scheme that is the problem. No 4-3 scheme has limited that offense to less than 24 points. Sure we gave up 35 points their offense, but so did KC, Oakland, and Greenbay. You don't see those teams complaining about the 4-3. This is just unreal. People graping at straws, creating utter mayhem and calling for complete changes midstream. Must be the same people that expected us in the playoffs this year.

[Vinny]

Originally Posted by beerlover

well said Porky!

"NE runs all kinds of formations" that was my point. The fact the Texans are thin when ever the Big 3 are out (at one point in yesterdays game all of them where hurting, lucky they all returned but I'm not sure they had a choice or how effective they were) screams for making adjustments, meaning maybe abandoning the 3-4 UNTIL the players who can run it return.

We were in 4-3 looks in many times in the game. We ran out of the 3-3-5 for most of it to be honest. It's not the flippin alignment, its the players and the execution (coaching). If you look at the game again you will see us in multiple formations. You just have to look.