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Old 08-28-2007   #61
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

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Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx View Post
Ehhh, I've heard worse...

And it wasn't incorrect....atleast not IMO.
If you can't treat other members with respect then you'll certainly lose any respect that others might have had for you. There are ways to make your point while still treating others with the proper amount of respect.
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Old 08-28-2007   #62
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If you can't treat other members with respect then you'll certainly lose any respect that others might have had for you. There are ways to make your point while still treating others with the proper amount of respect.
In the end I am going to be me, whether you or anyone else likes it or not.

But a long the way I will apologize to those whom I offend.

If being myself = loss of respect, then that's just something I'll have to deal with.

Last edited by real; 08-28-2007 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 08-28-2007   #63
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

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In the end I am going to be me, whether you or anyone else likes it or not.

But a long the way I will apologize to those whom I offend.
Just don't be offended when others treat you with the same respect you show them.
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Old 08-28-2007   #64
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Just don't be offended when others treat you with the same respect you show them.

Spare me...
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Old 08-28-2007   #65
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

I guess it's true what they say. Ignorance really is bliss.
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Old 08-28-2007   #66
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

I'm not sure why, but I'll try once more to explain myself. I'm really not saying anything that others haven't noticed as well, but you act as if I am on an island with my observations.

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Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx View Post
Oh o.k...

So you knew that when the QB does a play fake, whether it's a bootlegg or not, some of the linemen may or may not be selling the run...
In fact, yes. That is part of the play fake.

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And That the deeper a QB drops back the more of a pocket he'll have to step in to....
Yes, that (and the number of steps, obviously) is one of the main differences between the 3, 5, and 7-step drops. And the tackles push the DEs wide on the deeper dropsm and the QB can step up into the pocket, yadda yadda yadda.

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Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx View Post
And there will be many plays where defenders are purposely left unblocked...
Yes. One of the prime running examples of this would be a trap play.

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Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx View Post
If you knew that I'm not understanding how you're judging the line based on how the pocket looks...
That much is obvious. I am either not communicating well, or you've chosen to take my observations in a different context than some of the other posters' and my replies to them. As I said to DB, we're not as far apart as it might look on the surface in our opinions.

It doesn't take a former lineman to understand how to compare a basic 7-step drop from the Texans vs. one from another team. It doesn't take a former linemen to be able to pause a DVR when the QBs back foot hits on the final step and look at what the line has accomplished. It doesn't take a former lineman to compare plays from the team from week to week. It obviously doesn't take a former lineman to look at footwork/spacing on the setup and predict run/pass. It doesn't take a former lineman to compare plays from the same team from week to week and see progress and regression. Footwork and communication need work on this team. And I have my concerns about certain individuals on the line just getting manhandled more then they should as well. It doesn't take a former lineman to take into account situations that affect the play, such as repeated running to affect play-action, blitzing by the defense, and countermeasures by the offense. It really just takes a halfway intelligent individual with access to Sunday Ticket, a DVR, and some time to watch football. Your insinuations and allegations that I am either ignorant, stupid, or lying are completely out of line. But again, I am not the only one making that observation, either.

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The line will be o.k....
In the end, we can agree to disagree on this point. Time will tell. I don't foresee this particular ensemble being very good. Add in a solid LT (perhaps Spencer, but who knows?), have Winston continue maturing, and replace center with someone who doesn't get repeatedly pushed into the pocket on pass pro, and I'd be inclined to agree that the line would be OK then. We'll see.
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Old 08-28-2007   #67
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

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Your insinuations and allegations that I am either ignorant, stupid, or lying are completely out of line. But again, I am not the only one making that observation, either.
I don't think you're stupid or lying. I think you're wrong and a bit ignorant in this regard, but again that's JMO.

Hey....sue me....
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Old 08-28-2007   #68
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

Oh, the youth of today....

The thing I noticed and have liked about the line this year is the pulling guards. I watched Saturday night's game on the NFLN Sunday morning and it was really refreshing to watch Pitts, pull and hook the guy and with Green's patient running style a really nice hole opened up in the interior....

I don't really recall seeing much, if any of that last year under Kubes and Sherman...
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Old 08-28-2007   #69
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
I never said that.

I just don't think the sky is falling when I see the line play. Ask yourself why we still have three linemen from the 2002 squad, yet so many other positions have experienced turnover. Are the coaches blind to what you think you see as obvious?

Or, could it be somewhere in the middle. Not the greatest, not the worst, but an average line that can still be good enough for a solid RB and QB to work behind? Of course there is room for criticism, like every position on the team.

Imagine compromise. Not everything is black and white.
Imagine compromise? When I say that the QB and o-lineman both had problems, I'm told I'm only half right. I'm black and white?

======================================

I am just tired of the revisionist history. Most posters hated the o-line from 2002 - 2004, with the dawning of a new awareness somewhere in 2005. I know everyone will deny this, since everyone always knew Carr was the only problem (in hindsight).

I defended the linemen vociferously in past years, and there were always a lot of people to tell me how misguided that was. "Look at the sacks, Runner - the line sucks".

======================================

Why are three original lineman still on the team? Because the line isn't that different. They didn't suck then, they don't suck now. Or is it they sucked then, and they suck now?

======================================

Maybe this is just my long, drawn out, I told you so.

In that case, mea culpa. The Texans p'd me off in 2005 with their total corporate stupidity, and I'm still grinding a long forgotten axe. I guess I should be better than that.

======================================

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Old 08-29-2007   #70
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

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am just tired of the revisionist history. Most posters hated the o-line from 2002 - 2004, with the dawning of a new awareness somewhere in 2005. I know everyone will deny this, since everyone always knew Carr was the only problem (in hindsight).

I defended the linemen vociferously in past years, and there were always a lot of people to tell me how misguided that was. "Look at the sacks, Runner - the line sucks".
Well the fact of the matter is that this line didn't "mature" untill they brought in Sherman and they threw away the ZBS and went to the power running game. Yes sports fans the only thing that resembles the Texan's offense when compaired to Denver or the 9ers, is pass blocking schemes. There is a direct correlation between the emegence of Vonte Leech and the last six games. So the question must be asked because of your flippant and may I say with all due respect arrogant respose, why was it nessacary to discard all aspects of the WCO and the ZBS with regaurd to the Texan's rushing attack ? They didn't have the tallent to run it. And they still don't.
with out the rush Kubes' offense is a dead duck. A buss load of coaches came together and put together this version of Green Bay's power running game coupled with Kube's vertical pasing attack. You can spin it like you want now....but this group is and has been a house of cards for three years. I hope they suceed. I hope Salaam holds. I hope Vonte Leech stays healthy.
But to stick your nose in the air and say to the board SITYS, our line is ok,
is pretty gulible. Salaam goes down they will fold like a cheap suit. The lot of them. As you point out the same core group has set the modern record for most sacks allowed. It aggorvates me because it's always something in April. Always some reason not to kill the o-line problem once and for all.
always a reason to wait untill the prime atheletes are off the board. Well we're gonna see now. Living color and all of that. Got forty eight million chips pushed into the middle of the table riding on the back of Salaam. If he does go down it's going to be brutal and it's going to get there very quickly. Xt and I have been having the running war for two seasons now. And I believe we're going to find out this season that standing pat for the sake of anything at the expense of the o-line is nothing but fools gold. Let's see if they can make 2-1. After that you can tell me another one runner.
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Old 08-29-2007   #71
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

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Originally Posted by threetoedpete View Post
Well the fact of the matter is that this line didn't "mature" untill they brought in Sherman and they threw away the ZBS and went to the power running game. Yes sports fans the only thing that resembles the Texan's offense when compaired to Denver or the 9ers, is pass blocking schemes. There is a direct correlation between the emegence of Vonte Leech and the last six games. So the question must be asked because of your flippant and may I say with all due respect arrogant respose, why was it nessacary to discard all aspects of the WCO and the ZBS with regaurd to the Texan's rushing attack ? They didn't have the tallent to run it. And they still don't.

After that you can tell me another one runner.
Arrogant? Have you read the rest of this thread? I don't even know where the flippant comes from.

====================================

So you are saying that the line was never talented enough to run the zbs. I've always put more blame on the coaching and schemes than on the talent. Sounds like similar viewpoints to me, whether I agree with that single example or not.

I'm also on record as saying that center and LT are areas of great concern. That isn't as black and white as saying the whole line sucks, but I'm willing to roll with the RT and guards. I can't fault McKinney's run blocking - just his pass blocking, so I'm not even black and white on him as an individual player. I don't think Salaam is very good, and if even he goes down they are in deep trouble. At the risk of being arrogant, I pointed out that Jordan Black wasn't very good the day he was signed; I based that on watching him play rather than the catchy nickname he had on the Chiefs board too.

Go ahead and point out the errors of my ways though.
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Old 08-29-2007   #72
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

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Good post, eriadoc.

Just curious, though, what measurement(s) would you use to distinguish between a 'mediocre' line and an 'average' line?

If Green has a 1,000-1,200 yard season?

If Schaub is sacked less than 25 times this season?

I ask because many seem to have a logic that the line operates independently from the team.

And I mention this because Runner said "I used to think the Cowboys of the mid 90's had a great line." Would it have been as great of a line with David Carr and Ron Dayne behind it? I think having multiple HoF players at skill positions makes a huge difference, as well. We've only had one true playmaker in AJ, and the rest have been mediocre to downright horrible players.

If Shaub makes the line look better than they actually are, then doesn't this same logic apply to other teams, too?

I'm not sure our staff is "aspiring to mediocrity", but rather working with what we've got at the moment. With the problems Kubiak & Co. inherited (i.e. $30 million in dead cap, craptastic QB, etc.), I think they are addressing the more pressing areas first. Obviously they do not see the o-line as being as sorry as many make it out to be, or they would have moved to upgrade it in the off-season accordingly.


John McClain via Gary Kubia's own lips set the line this morning. Thirty sacks. I would add moving the team from the cellar on total team stats in regaurds to rushing the ball.

The thiry sacks is saying they're going a few games giving up zero sacks. Since we're locked and loaded on the o-line, as some suggest, and since we now have a top RB, and the great satin responsible for all the sacks is plying his trade now in Carolina, would it be too much to expcect the team to move from the high twenties into a top fifteen unit overall ? A number pronosticaed earlier this spring by XT BTW. We'll see.

I think a lot of this is working with what they have. They were cap straped and had the choice of firing the QB or replacing three o-lineman in one offseason. It was easier and a more practicle PR move, to unload the one than the three. Inspite of what he said back in March, Kubiak has painted himslef into the corner he swore he wouldn't paint himself into. We'll see if the viens in his neck are popping again like they were in New England last year befor the end of the season.
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Old 08-29-2007   #73
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

I do not recall many part time full backs emerging on the scene in the last third of the season to have two NFL Head Coches change their entire scheme. However, it is not surprising to see Kubiak and Sherman make a decision to take the ball out of a half a QB's hands the last five games of the season and leverage his second string RB behind a bull of a FB.

For the record, Carr threw the ball for a season high 54 times against the Jets in game 11. In the preceding five games Carr has four out of his five lowest passing attempts per game that season. In game 12, Dayne starts after being a DNP the previous three games, Leach does not. In fact Leach only starts in games 14-16, but we cannot forget that he started games 1 and 6.

Leach is a valued player, but in my opinion it has always been about Carr. In our history, less Carr has always equaled Texans success.
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Old 08-29-2007   #74
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

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and the great satin responsible for all the sacks is plying his trade now in Carolina
David Carr is not satin nor is he soylent green. He is Satan on the field. Off the field I hear he is a good as they come.
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Old 08-29-2007   #75
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

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Inspite of what he said back in March, Kubiak has painted himslef into the corner he swore he wouldn't paint himself into. We'll see if the viens in his neck are popping again like they were in New England last year befor the end of the season.
And the NE game was the one anomaly where Carr threw 5 more passes than any in the last five games. It is almost as if Kubiak had a gameplan and Carr had his own.
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Old 08-29-2007   #76
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

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Arrogant? Have you read the rest of this thread? I don't even know where the flippant comes from.

====================================

So you are saying that the line was never talented enough to run the zbs. I've always put more blame on the coaching and schemes than on the talent. Sounds like similar viewpoints to me, whether I agree with that single example or not.

I'm also on record as saying that center and LT are areas of great concern. That isn't as black and white as saying the whole line sucks, but I'm willing to roll with the RT and guards. I can't fault McKinney's run blocking - just his pass blocking, so I'm not even black and white on him as an individual player. I don't think Salaam is very good, and if even he goes down they are in deep trouble. At the risk of being arrogant, I pointed out that Jordan Black wasn't very good the day he was signed; I based that on watching him play rather than the catchy nickname he had on the Chiefs board too.

Go ahead and point out the errors of my ways though.



My bad, 1:30 in the morining . and I'm overly sensitive on this subject. McClain can spin what he wants this morning. and inspite of what he said over the phone yesterday about we don't hold nothing back....ah yeah you do. " some secret souces say" it was the great satin's fault. Print it. Yeah John, you do hold stuff back.

Now i don't know who McClain is tring to convince this morning. may be himself ? All I know is that the owner isn't rushing to back his HC's 30 number with an over under for free NFL jerseys instead of a %15 exchange discount at the Texan's Store. And look I really don't care if people want to walk down the yellow brick road. I see what I see and I stand by that. If they do offer the jersey's, my house takes the over. You're gambling that three thirty something's will hold over a sisxteen game NFL season. Yes it can happen. But most people who think that will happen, that it is a lock, have no concept of how much energy is expelled by the human body on one NFL snap in the trenches.
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Old 08-29-2007   #77
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

Things that I'd like to see that would define a good offensive line:

I'd like to see more lanes (a la last preseason) and less seams (a la last season). I'd like to see well-formed pockets. I'd like to see the quarterback do more than a three-step drop or a roll-out away from the defensive linemen. Also, seeing defensive linemen going backwards would be good. So would be seeing a linemen make a tackle to give a running back that extra couple yards. What I want can't be measured in sacks or penalties. The running back and the quarterback will not influence it. Only five 300-pound ugly dudes* can make me change my opinion of the line.


* - No offense to our linemen, but I'm kinda quoting Flanagan here, who said of McKinney and himself "Steve's a hell of a player, and he sure as hell didn't last 10 years because he's pretty. And neither have I for that matter."
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Old 08-29-2007   #78
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

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Originally Posted by Texans Horror View Post
Things that I'd like to see that would define a good offensive line:

I'd like to see more lanes (a la last preseason) and less seams (a la last season). I'd like to see well-formed pockets. I'd like to see the quarterback do more than a three-step drop or a roll-out away from the defensive linemen. Also, seeing defensive linemen going backwards would be good. So would be seeing a linemen make a tackle to give a running back that extra couple yards. What I want can't be measured in sacks or penalties. The running back and the quarterback will not influence it. Only five 300-pound ugly dudes* can make me change my opinion of the line.


* - No offense to our linemen, but I'm kinda quoting Flanagan here, who said of McKinney and himself "Steve's a hell of a player, and he sure as hell didn't last 10 years because he's pretty. And neither have I for that matter."
I think every fan, coach, GM, etc., would love to see what you are saying as it would be aesthetically pleasing. As with most teams they attempt to do with what they have. We need to get a Center and a LT next year, but in the interim one Schaub (as did Banks and Rosenfels) will cover up the pimples and warts that Carr could not.
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Old 08-29-2007   #79
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
I do not recall many part time full backs emerging on the scene in the last third of the season to have two NFL Head Coches change their entire scheme. However, it is not surprising to see Kubiak and Sherman make a decision to take the ball out of a half a QB's hands the last five games of the season and leverage his second string RB behind a bull of a FB.

For the record, Carr threw the ball for a season high 54 times against the Jets in game 11. In the preceding five games Carr has four out of his five lowest passing attempts per game that season. In game 12, Dayne starts after being a DNP the previous three games, Leach does not. In fact Leach only starts in games 14-16, but we cannot forget that he started games 1 and 6.

Leach is a valued player, but in my opinion it has always been about Carr. In our history, less Carr has always equaled Texans success.

I'm not going to get into it another DC thread hijacking. And yes I think you could set a clock by the philosophical change. The last game you saw them attempt the strech play. The first game they brought in the banger, Leech verses the pass catching FB on third and five. There are still aspects of the WCO in the passing game. The rushing attack however, outside of the lead draw, all aspects of WCO are in file thirteen. It's working. They put up 2-1 out the gate, I'm ok with it. But the point was there is a reason the HAD to do this. Up to you to figure out what that reason was. Believe it was all DC, fine by me.
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Old 08-29-2007   #80
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Default Re: Texans/Cowboys game observations

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Originally Posted by Texans Horror View Post
I'd like to see the quarterback do more than a three-step drop or a roll-out away from the defensive linemen.
The only regular season game I've looked at is the last Colts game and it might not be representative but over half our passes were 5 and 7 step drops. People talk about all the quick release throws, the roll outs, and the 3 step drops we had to run because our line was so bad... but we didn't do that as often as people think we did.

I also looked at the drops that we ran against the Bears in the first pre-season game, and the percentages were similar to the Colts game.

I'll look at the Cowboy game later tonight.
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