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Old 07-31-2007   #1
Texans_Chick
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Default On training camp, and the defensive line

I have a love/hate relationship with camp talk.

On one hand, I can't get enough info from camp. I love hearing everything, and the more detail the better.

On the other hand, sometimes stuff happens in the day to day of camp that gets overblown. (Mario's foot is tender? GAH the season is over.)

Various people can watch the same camp event and have different impressions of how people did. As humans, we don't *see* everything. If you noticed everything about the world as you were experiencing it, you would go crazy. That's why our brains filter things, based on what we are looking for and what our life experiences are. It's easier to process things that way. Someone with a different football education may see things differently than someone with a lesser knowledge. Someone who has an opinion about a particular player may only notice those things to reinforce that opinion.

In any event, I don't really want to get into a epistemological discussion about this other than suggesting that it is really early in camp and that we shouldn't focus too much on the day to day reports, but rather on the big picture that emerges.

In the spirit of that, I wrote this bit at FanHouse about the Texans defensive line:

Jeff Zgonina as Rescue Hero and Other Texans Defensive Line Observations

(Thanks to Andy for some of the pictures. )

According to his HT bio, Jeff Zgonina raises bulls.
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Old 07-31-2007   #2
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Default Re: On training camp, and the defensive line

I view this the same with as I did with the QB situation . If you spend a high pick at a position , it better be a strength . That high pick needs to play like a star because he's getting paid like a star .
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Old 07-31-2007   #3
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Default Re: On training camp, and the defensive line

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Originally Posted by Honoring Earl 34 View Post
I view this the same with as I did with the QB situation . If you spend a high pick at a position , it better be a strength . That high pick needs to play like a star because he's getting paid like a star .
But just because the rookie salaries are crazy these days because of the influence of agents on the CBA, doesn't mean that all rookies can excel immediately if they are at a position that has a bit of a learning curve and don't have experienced great guys playing next to them.

I just don't think that $$$ instantly translates to it being a strength, no matter how much you want to have that happen.
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Old 07-31-2007   #4
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Default Re: On training camp, and the defensive line

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Originally Posted by Honoring Earl 34 View Post
I view this the same with as I did with the QB situation . If you spend a high pick at a position , it better be a strength . That high pick needs to play like a star because he's getting paid like a star .
But you know it just doesn't alway work that way. In fact, striking gold with the first round pick, for any team, not just us, is the exception rather than ther rule.

Yet, like TC said, nowadays first round picks get the big bucks. Personally, I've never liked that, but that's how it is. I've always thought all rookies should start out with an entry level salary - no matter what round they got drafted in - and get paid according to production.
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Old 07-31-2007   #5
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Default Re: On training camp, and the defensive line

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
But just because the rookie salaries are crazy these days because of the influence of agents on the CBA, doesn't mean that all rookies can excel immediately if they are at a position that has a bit of a learning curve and don't have experienced great guys playing next to them.

I just don't think that $$$ instantly translates to it being a strength, no matter how much you want to have that happen.
I guess you got to look at the Colts and Patriots . You got to be smart enough to reel in your middle round picks and get lucky on your high round picks .

We're trying to avoid this .... hopefully this dead money leaves this year



Walker, Gary $5,500,501
Wade, Todd $5,000,000
Smith, Robaire $4,175,002
Carr, David $4,000,000
Moulds, Eric $3,750,000
Payne, Seth $2,250,000
Wiegert, Zach $2,950,000
Williams, Domanick $1,300,000
Wong, Kailee $1,167,000
Morency, Vernand $189,000
Cowart, Sam $135,000
Players with less than $100,000 $101,000



http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/teams/NE

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/teams/IND
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A little about Colleen. She's the brains behind the operation. Magna cum laude from BC, top five in her law school class, so obviously I have a pretty good idea how to recruit, I can tell you that.

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Old 07-31-2007   #6
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Default Re: On training camp, and the defensive line

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I guess you got to look at the Colts and Patriots . You got to be smart enough to reel in your middle round picks and get lucky on your high round picks .
Unfair comparison.

It helps when you don't have a whole bunch of serious needs to fill all at once. Both those teams are perennial (sp?) playoff teams and have successful systems in place. From year to year all they need to do is hit one or two replacements for guys who are getting on in their careers. When most of your starters are already high caliber and proficient in your system then you can take your time and groom a promising youngster and primarily use him in situations that play to his strengths. That builds his confidence while he learns the NFL game.

I ask you, were Lawrence Maroney or Joseph Addai really on anyone's radar last year? Both were brought in to spell established players and shined in their respective systems. If Maroney had fizzled, so what. Corey Dillon and Kevin Faulk were still there. No one would have noticed.

Mario didn't have that luxury. Neither does Amobi.
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Old 07-31-2007   #7
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Default Re: On training camp, and the defensive line

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Originally Posted by KJ3 View Post
what a novel idea.

to the plank with you...
whut...?
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Old 07-31-2007   #8
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Default Re: On training camp, and the defensive line

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
Unfair comparison.

It helps when you don't have a whole bunch of serious needs to fill all at once. Both those teams are perennial (sp?) playoff teams and have successful systems in place. From year to year all they need to do is hit one or two replacements for guys who are getting on in their careers. When most of your starters are already high caliber and proficient in your system then you can take your time and groom a promising youngster and primarily use him in situations that play to his strengths. That builds his confidence while he learns the NFL game.

I ask you, were Lawrence Maroney or Joseph Addai really on anyone's radar last year? Both were brought in to spell established players and shined in their respective systems. If Maroney had fizzled, so what. Corey Dillon and Kevin Faulk were still there. No one would have noticed.

Mario didn't have that luxury. Neither does Amobi.
Why did the Colts have this pick ?


1998
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 1 Peyton Manning QB Tennessee
2 32 Jerome Pathon WR Washington
3 71 E.G. Green WR Florida State
4 93 Steve McKinney G Texas A&M
5 135 Antony Jordan OLB Vanderbilt
7 190 Aaron Taylor G Nebraska
7 231 Cory Gaines S Tennessee

Why is New England picking this high ?

2001
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 6 Richard Seymour DE Georgia
2 48 Matt Light T Purdue
3 86 Brock Williams CB Notre Dame
4 96 Kenyatta Jones T South Florida
4 119 Jabari Holloway TE Notre Dame
5 163 Hakim Akbar OLB Washington
6 180 Arther Love TE South Carolina State
6 200 Leonard Myers CB Miami
7 216 Owen Pochman K Brigham Young
7 239 T.J. Turner OLB Michigan State
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A little about Colleen. She's the brains behind the operation. Magna cum laude from BC, top five in her law school class, so obviously I have a pretty good idea how to recruit, I can tell you that.

Last edited by Honoring Earl 34; 07-31-2007 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 08-01-2007   #9
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Default Re: On training camp, and the defensive line

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Originally Posted by Honoring Earl 34 View Post
Why did the Colts have this pick ?

1998
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 1 Peyton Manning QB Tennessee
2 32 Jerome Pathon WR Washington
3 71 E.G. Green WR Florida State
4 93 Steve McKinney G Texas A&M
5 135 Antony Jordan OLB Vanderbilt
7 190 Aaron Taylor G Nebraska
7 231 Cory Gaines S Tennessee

Why is New England picking this high ?

2001
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 6 Richard Seymour DE Georgia
2 48 Matt Light T Purdue
3 86 Brock Williams CB Notre Dame
4 96 Kenyatta Jones T South Florida
4 119 Jabari Holloway TE Notre Dame
5 163 Hakim Akbar OLB Washington
6 180 Arther Love TE South Carolina State
6 200 Leonard Myers CB Miami
7 216 Owen Pochman K Brigham Young
7 239 T.J. Turner OLB Michigan State
To answer your question, the Pats finished the 2000 season 5-11; it was Belichick's first year in N.E.
Why does any team have a top ten pick? They had a bad year. The next season, 2001, was the one Bledsoe got hurt and Brady took over and well, you know the story....

and OBTW, they weren't that bad a team before Belichick got there. In the five seasons before that, 2000 was the only year they didn't finish at least 8-8...
2000 5-11 (Belichick arrives)
1999 8-8
1998 9-7
1997 10-6 (Pete Carroll took over)
1996 11-5 (went to the SB with Parcells)


And how many of those other guys were with the team any length of time? Ten picks that draft, only one real hit. But they just needed one or two more pieces and they were back to the Super Bowl.

The Colts finished the 1997 season 3-13 which got them the Manning vs Leaf pick. The year they drafted Manning, 1998, they finished 3-13 again. And while they made the playoffs in 1999 & 2000, they finished 6-10 in 2001. But following those two drafts they haven't had to revamp the whole team like we're doing. And still, after its all said and done, it still took 9 seasons (and a coaching change) for the Manning pick to translate into a Super Bowl win.


That's the status we are still trying to achieve. Where its unusual that we don't make the playoffs. Where our team is so solid that all we need is to find a piece here and a piece there. Where all our starters & most of our backups are so solid you really have to be special to make our squad.

And for the first time, I think we're headed in that direction.



or am I missing your point?

Last edited by ObsiWan; 08-01-2007 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 08-01-2007   #10
Honoring Earl 34
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Default Re: On training camp, and the defensive line

I guess my point would be , the Colts hit big time on James , Manning , Freeney , and Harrison . I think once you get your key positions filled ... it makes everyone else better .

I think Seymour , besides Brady is as important as any Patriot . Again They got lucky with Brady but they now have a star QB . These two guys make everyone else better . They also have guys like Vrabel , Bruschi , and Harrison who are smart old vets who know how to get it done .

What the good teams do , is once they become established and pick in the lower half of the draft ... they pick good players late in the 1st .

The Texans with Mario , Schaub , AJ , Demeco , Dunta , and Amobi could possibly have a core of good young players .... the really optimistic approach would be they all become pro-bowlers . Then they pick up the remaining pieces to the puzzle in the 20-32 range and you have a 5 year ride .
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A little about Colleen. She's the brains behind the operation. Magna cum laude from BC, top five in her law school class, so obviously I have a pretty good idea how to recruit, I can tell you that.

Last edited by Honoring Earl 34; 08-01-2007 at 07:12 AM.
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