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Old 05-13-2004   #1
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3rd and more than 4 to go requires a pass to be completed and that's where I keep saying that our receivers are not the best in the world. TE's come into play in this situation. This year is going to be interesting to see the competion and what results. I keep saying the veterns are going to have to pony up or they may be gone. It would be a healthy shake up for the ball club.
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Old 05-13-2004   #2
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Originally Posted by Ibar_Harry
3rd and more than 4 to go requires a pass to be completed and that's where I keep saying that our receivers are not the best in the world. TE's come into play in this situation. This year is going to be interesting to see the competion and what results. I keep saying the veterns are going to have to pony up or they may be gone. It would be a healthy shake up for the ball club.
Ibar, I sat here for two seasons during games and watched you ask (in posts) what was going on during the telecasts. How in the world can you make these judgements when you have not seen more than a couple of games? I'd like to know the answer to this.
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Old 05-13-2004   #3
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There are a lot of ways to watch a game including the Web Casts. You may not always visually see what's happening, but the patterns remain the same and its amazing how many times you can call the play the Texans will make before it happens. However, I have seen more than a couple of games, and I have watched David a lot in the past in Fresno, and I believe I have some honest feelings as to what is happening on the field. I will continue to say that it will be an iteresting year from the WR and TE perspecitive and you may well see some real surprises. I don't think anything is written in concrete at this point in time. If a vertern has to really step it up would be a very healthy development for this ball club and is not a negative at all. It will be intersting to watch the developments at the training camps and the preseason games.
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Old 05-13-2004   #4
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There are a lot of ways to watch a game including the Web Casts. You may not always visually see what's happening, but the patterns remain the same and its amazing how many times you can call the play the Texans will make before it happens.
So, its safe to say you are guessing that it is the WR's fault and give Carr a free pass because of the fact you are a Fresno resident? What "web casts"? I was here during many of the games and you were always asking what we were seeing.
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Old 05-13-2004   #5
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SteelBlue I noticed in one of your posts in another section you took offense because you thought you had a right to your opinion. I'm politely doing the same thing. I have not stated anywhere anything about Carr in these posts. In fact I will say that David has to begin showing more than just leadership. Anyway, I stand by what I'm saying and lets just sit back and watch what happens. We are certainly not getting a lot of info from the Texans as yet. I think its going to be an interesting year with a lot of changes. People are going to be working harder than every to maintain their positions. Once again, that's healthy for the ball club.
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Old 05-13-2004   #6
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Originally Posted by Ibar_Harry
SteelBlue I noticed in one of your posts in another section you took offense because you thought you had a right to your opinion. I'm politely doing the same thing. I have not stated anywhere anything about Carr in these posts. In fact I will say that David has to begin showing more than just leadership. Anyway, I stand by what I'm saying and lets just sit back and watch what happens. We are certainly not getting a lot of info from the Texans as yet. I think its going to be an interesting year with a lot of changes. People are going to be working harder than every to maintain their positions. Once again, that's healthy for the ball club.
Hey, I just want everyone to know your thoughts are assumptions. I think that is fair. You are certainly entitled to your assumptions, but seeing developments with your own eyes is not the same as assuming what is going on. Your thoughts and your assumptions are fair game. Feel free to post them. I just think that is fair to point out you have not really seen some of these things you comment on.

Btw: I may comment on tons of stuff, but I do not get “offended” at counter arguments. I speak my mind. I encourage you to as well, but do not expect people to fall in line with your logic if they do not feel your assumptions are “fair”. I do not happen to think that when you take our offense to task it is too fair or balanced. It is just my opinion, as you are free to have your opinion as well.
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Old 05-13-2004   #7
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SteelBlue,

I agree that someone whose information is all second hand is usually not as valuable as an informated first hand account. I just want to add that even someone who views a game may not have valuable input. We have no idea about the person's ability to know what is really going on in a game. An unskilled eye may make a false assumption even though they watched the game.

For example, a person may blame a blocker for a failed running play, when, in fact, the culprit was the impatient running back who didn't wait for the play to develop. On the other hand, the person might get it right. You never know the quality of the input unless you have previous verifiable examples to trust (or not trust) the poster's opinions.
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Old 05-13-2004   #8
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That's not over my head and its a fair point. If someone is going to be highly critical of a player (like Gaffney or Bradford), its fair to point out that these are opinions from someone who hasn't really seen them play. They are just making assumptions based on stats. That does not strike me as fair to the players.
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Old 05-16-2004   #9
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We can conclude that the Texans may make signifant leaps forword and still be just better then average. Therefore if the Texans do not have a winning record next year the fans better not exit stage left. Stick to it for the long hall it may be a couple of years before the dynasty starts to settle in. however once it does start to happen it will be worth the wait.
I think patience in the NFL as far as time to develop players and for a team to win has drastically changed in the last 10 or so years. Most players feel no sense of loyalty to a team. The $ rules. I've never understood why a player will leave a team that drafted him and spent countless hours coaching him for another team. Where are the Pat Tillmans? The dollar amount is insignificant when your comparing 5.5 to 6 million or 7.5 to 9 million. Does it always have to be more than the next guy so that salaries never stop spiraling out of sight? Give me more!
Houston is on a 5 year plan supposedly. To me that is a long time in todays NFL. You could lose half the players that started with your team in 5 years. Teams have become revolving doors for players. Mediocre players now command a lot of money and get it. I don't feel sorry for their short careers because most will make more in 1 contract signing than you or I do in our entire life. I think Capers and CC have done a good job up to this point but who is to say key players won't bolt right when our team is turning the corner.
After saying all that I really don't think that there is a whole lot that we could do different. As a matter of fact I think character is one of the things Capers and CC take into consideration when drafting a player. So hopefully when our key players are up for contract negotiations we will see that "character" come into play.

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Old 05-16-2004   #10
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I think patience in the NFL as far as time to develop players and for a team to win has drastically changed in the last 10 or so years. Most players feel no sense of loyalty to a team. The $ rules. I've never understood why a player will leave a team that drafted him and spent countless hours coaching him for another team.
Why should they be loyal to a team? They are cut when injured and no longer viable. When they lose a step they are cast out. For the most part the players play for the league. The team they work for is just color. It's like being a part of a large corporation and being transferred to Seattle for work when traded. Loyalty cuts both ways and players don't need to be more loyal than the teams they work for. These guys put their bodies on the line for US FANS to enjoy. The average career is 4 years. Ask Earl Campbell how hard it is to get out of bed. He paid a high price for us to enjoy the NFL. I don't mind the players having some freedom. They are the ones ruining thier bodies for our enjoyment. Since the Owners are not too loyal to the players, so I don't see why the players need to be MORE loyal to the team. The only place I see where "loyalty" come into play is the fan interface.

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Where are the Pat Tillmans? The dollar amount is insignificant when your comparing 5.5 to 6 million or 7.5 to 9 million. Does it always have to be more than the next guy so that salaries never stop spiraling out of sight? Give me more!
The dollar amount is capped. It does not "spiral out of sight". Would you rather we roll the clock back to when the owners kept all the profit and gave the players crumbs? I am JUST FINE, with these guys we watch take their FAIR SHARE of the proceeds. I'd rather see guys like Jamie Sharper and Chester Pitts share in the ENOURMOUS money generated by the NFL than see Bud Adams or Bill Bidwell fatten their pockets to no end.
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Houston is on a 5 year plan supposedly. To me that is a long time in todays NFL.
Did you forget we are an expansion team? We did not have a decade of drafts as our core foundation. 5-years is too long....for a mature, established team full of hand picked players as a core group. It takes about 4 years to fill out 22 NFL quality starters, and one NFL quality back up at each position.....from scratch.
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Old 05-16-2004   #11
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Why should they be loyal to a team? They are cut when injured and no longer viable. When they lose a step they are cast out. For the most part the players play for the league. The team they work for is just color. It's like being a part of a large corporation and being transferred to Seattle for work when traded. Loyalty cuts both ways and players don't need to be more loyal than the teams they work for. These guys put their bodies on the line for US FANS to enjoy. The average career is 4 years. Ask Earl Campbell how hard it is to get out of bed. He paid a high price for us to enjoy the NFL. I don't mind the players having some freedom. They are the ones ruining thier bodies for our enjoyment. Since the Owners are not too loyal to the players, so I don't see why the players need to be MORE loyal to the team. The only place I see where "loyalty" come into play is the fan interface.
You paint a much darker picture than what is truly reality. I don't agree with the way you see the NFL at all. These guys aren't ruining their bodies and being cast aside. Some do but that isn't the majority. They choose to play in the NFL. As much as I love Earl Campbell even he said if he could do it different he would go out of bounds more. He used to punish everyone trying to bring him down. I don't see players paying a high price for our enjoyment. I see them doing it for $ and the only high price being their salary.

Quote:
The dollar amount is capped. It does not "spiral out of sight". Would you rather we roll the clock back to when the owners kept all the profit and gave the players crumbs? I am JUST FINE, with these guys we watch take their FAIR SHARE of the proceeds. I'd rather see guys like Jamie Sharper and Chester Pitts share in the ENOURMOUS money generated by the NFL than see Bud Adams or Bill Bidwell fatten their pockets to no end.
Every year a player negotiates a new contract and looks at what somebody else got with the same sort of stats and demands the same $ or more. The salary cap only limits what each team can spend on players not what each individual player gets. Ask Peyton Manning, Steve McNair, Champ Baily, Clinton Portis, Aaron Glenn, etc. Fair share as you see it. Owners are supposed to make a profit and I am FINE WITH THAT. Players are just that, players. They deserve to be paid fairly but some of the salaries are just plain outrageous.

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Did you forget we are an expansion team? We did not have a decade of drafts as our core foundation. 5-years is too long....for a mature, established team full of hand picked players as a core group. It takes about 4 years to fill out 22 NFL quality starters, and one NFL quality back up at each position.....from scratch.
Where did you get these numbers? Because it is dependant on the plan and whoever is executing that plan. Draw up a different plan and those numbers change.
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Old 05-17-2004   #12
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You paint a much darker picture than what is truly reality. I don't agree with the way you see the NFL at all. These guys aren't ruining their bodies and being cast aside. Some do but that isn't the majority. They choose to play in the NFL. As much as I love Earl Campbell even he said if he could do it different he would go out of bounds more. He used to punish everyone trying to bring him down. I don't see players paying a high price for our enjoyment. I see them doing it for $ and the only high price being their salary.
I've been a fan of the NFL for parts of 4 decades. I see what I see. Players get hurt, the NFL moves on. It really hasn't changed. Some people tend to see the players as a pawn for their enjoyment, I see them as human, and as people perhaps.

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Every year a player negotiates a new contract and looks at what somebody else got with the same sort of stats and demands the same $ or more. The salary cap only limits what each team can spend on players not what each individual player gets. Ask Peyton Manning, Steve McNair, Champ Baily, Clinton Portis, Aaron Glenn, etc. Fair share as you see it. Owners are supposed to make a profit and I am FINE WITH THAT. Players are just that, players. They deserve to be paid fairly but some of the salaries are just plain outrageous.
There is something called the Collective Bargaining Agreement, and it distributes the massive revinue in the NFL fairly. A FIXED % of the profit goes to the players now. Before, it was a pimp-ho relationship.

Each player negotiates his worth and takes a share of the players % of the money. The same amount goes to the players regardless of what the individual signs for, it's just divided by worth. Its fair, and its proper, and the players and owners agree. Owners DO make a profit, as they always have. It's just not all the profit now.
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Old 05-17-2004   #13
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I'm right there with you on the 4 decades SteelBlue. I'm working on my 5th. I guess I have a problem with the fair share some players get. It's way too much for what they actually do IMHO. We will probably never agree on this issue.
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Old 05-17-2004   #14
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I am of the mentality that if you generate it, you deserve it. Does Micael Jackson "deserve" his millions and millions for simply singing? Does Cheech and Chong "deserve" all that cash from promoting pot smoking? Beats me, but they generated the money, so they deserve it. The NFL generates a ridiculous amount of money, and the players deserve to get their fair share. It may strike you as excessive, but they are the ones generating this cash, no one else.

As far as "agreement" goes, I expect people to have their own minds and to express what moves them. I like to see disagreement here as it shows confidence and it gives this place diversity. It's a good thing.
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Old 05-17-2004   #15
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I used to be a BIG proponent of players putting the money aside (within reason, of course) and staying loyal to a team--particularly if it was a team that gave them a shot when no one else would.

Then came Al Davis. And Art Modell. And Butt Adams. And so on....

Rooting for an NFL team IS rooting for a corporation. LITERALLY. We like the franchise--take that literally with no nostalgia attached--in our city because it's in our city, but do owners like the fans for any reason other than $$? Maybe at some level, but they've proven in the past 10 years that it's all about the cash for them too.

I worry less about player loyalty to teams than I do to their own word. What I think is OUTRAGEOUS is how an owner is obligated to uphold a contract but a player can, at what is more or less a whim, QUIT. And come back whenever they want, with no serious repercussions. They call it "holding out," but I call it being a quitter and breaking one's word to one's teammates. Sure, they may lose game checks if they skip a game, but isn't it usually a matter of skipping the hard part (training camp) to say you're worth more than you were when you GAVE YOUR WORD in a contract?

Play your heart out in a contract year, but don't be a baby about it.
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Old 05-17-2004   #16
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What I think is OUTRAGEOUS is how an owner is obligated to uphold a contract but a player can, at what is more or less a whim, QUIT.
I sympathize with you, and held a similar view (and I still hate hold-outs) until I considered the facts that (a) the teams can cut the players at any time so really they don't have to live up to anything and (b) that whenever necessary, such as to pay for a Manningesque contract, they will come to other players and ask the to take less money out of loyalty to the team, etc. The basic fact is the NFL has one of the more restricted contracting systems and it was agreed to by both the teams and the players--they both have to live with it.
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Old 05-18-2004   #17
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Those are excellent points, but can someone refresh my memory? I thought that if a player is cut after they make the final roster their money's guaranteed for the rest of that season. No?
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Old 05-18-2004   #18
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Those are excellent points, but can someone refresh my memory? I thought that if a player is cut after they make the final roster their money's guaranteed for the rest of that season. No?
I believe that is true after some date, but it is still part of the system that was negotiated by both the owners and players as the system they would live with.
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Old 05-19-2004   #19
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My understanding is if the player has 4 years service and is on the opening day roster he gets a full years pay.
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Old 05-19-2004   #20
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Thanks for reminding me. I had intended to post this from the CBA earlier but forgot:
------------------------
TERMINATION PAY

Section 1. Eligibility: Any player who has completed the season in which his fourth year or more of credited service under the Bert Bell/Pete Rozelle Retirement Plan has been earned shall be eligible for termination pay under this Article if:

(1) He is released after his Club’s first regular season game; and

(2) He has made the Inactive or Active List of his Club on or after the date of his Club’s first regular season game.

Subject to Section 3 below, the amount of termination pay payable to such player shall be the unpaid balance of his Paragraph 5 Salary for that League Year. Termination pay under this Article shall be claimed and payable no sooner than one day after the end of the regular season schedule, and no later than February 1. A player will not be entitled to termination pay more than once during his playing career in the NFL.

*Extension Agreement 2/25/98

Section 2. Regular Season Signings: The termination pay under this Article of any player who is terminated from a contract which was signed after the beginning of the regular season in which he is terminated shall be limited to an amount equal to the unpaid balance of the initial 25% of such player’s Paragraph 5 Salary. If such player is released after the eighth regular season game, his termination pay shall be one week’s salary, up to a maximum of $20,000.

Section 3. Ineligibility For Termination Pay: An otherwise qualified player will not be entitled to termination pay under this Article if the Club can demonstrate that, after receipt of a written warning from his Club in the form attached hereto as Appendix N, the player failed to exhibit the level of good faith effort which can be reasonably expected from NFL players on that Club.
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