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Old 06-12-2007   #21
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Originally Posted by hollywood_texan View Post
I don't think it takes that many quality players (what is that definition anyway?) to make a playoff team.

I think McNair is just wrong and probably the biggest reason why the Texans are having their troubles. His flawed football logic impacts personnel decisions on several levels. McNair, PLEASE STAY OUT PERSONNEL DECISIONS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!!!!
So you admit you don't know what he meant and then vehemently condemn him. Okie Dokie.
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Old 06-12-2007   #22
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

Can you really fault the man for stating his opinion ? His opinion of who is a quality player may just be different from yours...look at the varying opinions on quality players within the small sampling of this thread...
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Old 06-12-2007   #23
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

Add NFL in front of quality and then compare to the 2002 Texans. Just take a look at the number of players out of the league after that season or the next:
James Allen, Jarrod Baxter, Avion Black, Pat Dennis, Jujuan Dawson, Erik Flowers, Demingo Graham, Jimmy Herndon, Jabari Holloway, Jermaine Lewis, Keith Mitchell, Ryan Schau, Matt Stevens and on and on. Especially on O, that team was lacking quality players. Heck, Pitts, Weary and McKinney are the only guys from that O still starting.
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Old 06-12-2007   #24
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
So you admit you don't know what he meant and then vehemently condemn him. Okie Dokie.
I should feel comfortable that someone is in charge/making important decisions and can't explain what they're doing or their processes clearly? I see your point but you need to look at my statement from a different perspective.

Like this, that is how people get fired from their jobs saying stuff like that with poor to marginal results. There is no condemning, just like Carr wasn't condemned, just fired, hit the bricks, etc.

Fortunately for McNair, he is the boss, so he isn't going to get fired as long he can sign the checks. But, that becomes problematic for the fans of the Texans.

The more the Texans struggle, and the only consistent is McNair constantly meddling in personnel decisions and strategey, the more I come to the conclusion the biggest problem the Texans have being successful on the football field is McNair himself.
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Old 06-12-2007   #25
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Originally Posted by hollywood_texan View Post
The more the Texans struggle, and the only consistent is McNair constantly meddling in personnel decisions and strategey, the more I come to the conclusion the biggest problem the Texans have being successful on the football field is McNair himself.
Other than Carr, I haven't seen any evidence of meddling in personnel decisions. This was just a hey we are excited about the team statement. I think you are reading way too much into it.
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Old 06-12-2007   #26
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post

Have I forgotten about some players? Have I given too much credit to others? If 18-21 quality players are really needed to contend for the playoffs, just how close are the Texans?
Well, you pulled up 15. So, that's only 3 shy, right? That's pretty close.

We just need a few guys to step up.
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Old 06-12-2007   #27
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Other than Carr, I haven't seen any evidence of meddling in personnel decisions. This was just a hey we are excited about the team statement. I think you are reading way too much into it.
Maybe so.

But, McNair has meddled more than the Carr decision.

For example, requiring last year's (2006) first round draft pick be signed before draft day. Which was requirement of the first round for 2002. Let your coaching staff take the best player it needs and figure out the finances later.

It seems to me that McNair doesn't micro manage personnel (except for the QB position) but puts undue stipulations that possibly prevent the coaching staff from acquiring the most talented personnel. Further, he has some flawed logic in his football knowledge from the quotes I have read, just my opinion of course.

I really would like him to just sign checks and take a back seat. If he doesn't trust Kubiak/Smith, what's the point?

Maybe he does trust them, but he should lay low on commenting about personnel decisions/strategy in my opinion. When he talks about that stuff, I have zero confidence in what he says. And it appears I am not the only wondering about his comments, because that seems to be the point of this thread, figuring out what he said and what he means.
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Old 06-12-2007   #28
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Pitts, Weary and McKinney are the only guys from that O still starting.
It makes you wonder....if the media's perception is that our o-line has been so horrible for so long...how are these guys still on the team after five seasons?...

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Other than Carr, I haven't seen any evidence of meddling in personnel decisions.
Well, to be fair, it does seem like it was McNair's decision to have our 2006 draft pick signed before draft day by all accounts. Although, I'm not sure how much meddling it is to choose between Mario and Reggie as much as it is conditional. Either way, we were getting a quality player.

But I think McNair is a good owner. A noob to be sure, so he'll make some mistakes. However, compared with a lot of other NFL owners, we've got a great one.
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Old 06-12-2007   #29
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

You've got a billion dollars, you buy a football team. You're dumber than a box of bricks. Irregardless, you can have any opinion you desire, and you can meddle as often as you please. I'd point out two that come to mind. Jerry Jones, and Bud Adams. When I think of those two, McNair seems like a godsend to me. So as a fan, though I may totally disagree with his opinion or his alleged meddling, I don't have the billion dollars to correct the problem....any one care to loan me some money?
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Old 06-12-2007   #30
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Well, to be fair, it does seem like it was McNair's decision to have our 2006 draft pick signed before draft day by all accounts.
See I have seen three different stories, not all mutually exclusive. One, that McNair/Casserly thought Bush was lying about the house for his parents. One, that he wanted the pick signed. And one, that Kubiak flat out picked Mario as the guy he wanted--McClain did a detailed account of this one for the last 48 hours before the draft. McClain has also asserted the signing thing wasn't an issue because Bush and the Texans weren't far apart when they switched trains and decided to go with McNair. Fact is we just don't know, but I haven't seen any evidence of flat out lying by Kubiak yet so I lean toward him having made the choice.
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Old 06-12-2007   #31
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Originally Posted by FirstTexansFan View Post
You've got a billion dollars, you buy a football team. You're dumber than a box of bricks. Irregardless, you can have any opinion you desire, and you can meddle as often as you please. I'd point out two that come to mind. Jerry Jones, and Bud Adams. When I think of those two, McNair seems like a godsend to me. So as a fan, though I may totally disagree with his opinion or his alleged meddling, I don't have the billion dollars to correct the problem....any one care to loan me some money?
I don't think it is about him not being the owner of the Texans or comparing him to any other owner.

He needs to understand what he is good at, do that, delegate the rest to qualified individuals without putting too many restrictions that can hinder results on the field.

I don't think is a bad owner per se. It's like an annual personnel review of an employee. Just because you point to areas of improvement doesn't mean you want to fire the employee.

I am merely pointing to an area for improvement. Other than that issue, McNair seems to be a great owner.
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Old 06-12-2007   #32
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
See I have seen three different stories, not all mutually exclusive. One, that McNair/Casserly thought Bush was lying about the house for his parents. One, that he wanted the pick signed. And one, that Kubiak flat out picked Mario as the guy he wanted--McClain did a detailed account of this one for the last 48 hours before the draft. McClain has also asserted the signing thing wasn't an issue because Bush and the Texans weren't far apart when they switched trains and decided to go with McNair. Fact is we just don't know, but I haven't seen any evidence of flat out lying by Kubiak yet so I lean toward him having made the choice.
Good point. I've heard all those stories, as well. And when looking at a Kubiak-style offense, neither Reggie nor Vince would have fit the system.

Plus I think Kubiak is sincere when he says that the success of the team is directly related to having a consistent pass rush, and picking Mario (and Okoye) is right in line with that philosophy.
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Old 06-12-2007   #33
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
It makes you wonder....if the media's perception is that our o-line has been so horrible for so long...how are these guys still on the team after five seasons?...
Media? Go back 2-3 years on the board - it was almost everyone here's perception too. I got into some controversy many times in discussions about sack responsibility. I pointed out that if the LT had his man under control and the QB ran right past him escaping pressure in the middle, it wasn't the LTs fault - who didn't know the QB was coming - that the end just had to diengage, sidestep, and make the sack. I blamed it on the inside collapse and the QB. The majority opinion was the LT sucked. Get a new one.

A couple of the previous lineman should still be here. I believe the Texans gave up on good players too willingly to CYA other positions and inadequate coaching.

Then again, maybe the line has been horrible for so long because "these guys are still on the team"...chicken and egg, etc.


I expect some improvement this year, but I don't expect a top 10 line by any means.
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Old 06-12-2007   #34
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Originally Posted by hollywood_texan View Post
But, maybe someone can through the following rosters and see if it follows McNair's theory:

2. Colts
I'll take the Colts:

Any team would want these guys in their lineup:
1. Peyton Manning
2. Dwight Freeney
3. Reggie Wayne
4. Marvin Harrison
5. Robert Mathis
6. Bob Sanders

Most assume these guys will become high quality players:
7. Joseph Addai
8. Dallas Clark

These are some vet players who are of proven quality, if not Pro Bowlers:
9. Jeff Saturday
10. Booger McFarland
11. Ryan Diem
12. Tarik Glenn
13. Raheem Brock
14. Gary Brackett

Young guys who could become quality players soon:
15. Marlin Jackson
16. Antoine Bethea
17. Anthony Gonzalez
18. Tony Ugoh

Players with quality skills in limited roles:
19. Adam Vinatieri
20. Hunter Smith

I think the Colts fall right into the 18-21 range. I think it's more likely that McNair is reciting some number than making it up on his own. Was it something Rick Smith said? Kubiak? Casserly? Reeves? Who knows? I think the difference between where the Texans are now, to where they need to be a playoff contender is:

Improved play from the LT position (a healthly Spencer would be great)
Consistent play at Center from McKinney or Flanagan
Decent production from the #2 WR
Someone to emerge as the FS
The kicking specialists to return to their '04 levels of production

I'm not talking about a trip to Arizona on February 3rd. I'm talking about looking at playoff tiebreakers over the last few weeks of the season. Sure, a lot of breaks would have to go the Texans way. But isn't it about time that the Texans got a few breaks?
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Old 06-12-2007   #35
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
I'll take the Colts:

Any team would want these guys in their lineup:
1. Peyton Manning
2. Dwight Freeney
3. Reggie Wayne
4. Marvin Harrison
5. Robert Mathis
6. Bob Sanders

Most assume these guys will become high quality players:
7. Joseph Addai
8. Dallas Clark

These are some vet players who are of proven quality, if not Pro Bowlers:
9. Jeff Saturday
10. Booger McFarland
11. Ryan Diem
12. Tarik Glenn
13. Raheem Brock
14. Gary Brackett

Young guys who could become quality players soon:
15. Marlin Jackson
16. Antoine Bethea
17. Anthony Gonzalez
18. Tony Ugoh

Players with quality skills in limited roles:
19. Adam Vinatieri
20. Hunter Smith

I think the Colts fall right into the 18-21 range. I think it's more likely that McNair is reciting some number than making it up on his own. Was it something Rick Smith said? Kubiak? Casserly? Reeves? Who knows? I think the difference between where the Texans are now, to where they need to be a playoff contender is:

Improved play from the LT position (a healthly Spencer would be great)
Consistent play at Center from McKinney or Flanagan
Decent production from the #2 WR
Someone to emerge as the FS
The kicking specialists to return to their '04 levels of production

I'm not talking about a trip to Arizona on February 3rd. I'm talking about looking at playoff tiebreakers over the last few weeks of the season. Sure, a lot of breaks would have to go the Texans way. But isn't it about time that the Texans got a few breaks?
Cool...

Now if you take away Manning, Harrison, and Freeney and what do you have as a team?

Probably a team a lot like the Texans of 2006.

Your counting one guy that hasn't even played a down yet in the NFL, I am referring to Gonzalez.

I am not criticizing your analysis or what you did. It looks good, but all those other guys status as quality players, rely on the performance of Manning, Harrison, and Freeney. Which is really to my point regarding this theory by McNair.

Of course a team needs several quality players and depth, but very rarely is a team successful without at least 2 star players.
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Old 06-12-2007   #36
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Media? Go back 2-3 years on the board - it was almost everyone here's perception too. I got into some controversy many times in discussions about sack responsibility. I pointed out that if the LT had his man under control and the QB ran right past him escaping pressure in the middle, it wasn't the LTs fault - who didn't know the QB was coming - that the end just had to diengage, sidestep, and make the sack. I blamed it on the inside collapse and the QB. The majority opinion was the LT sucked. Get a new one.

A couple of the previous lineman should still be here. I believe the Texans gave up on good players too willingly to CYA other positions and inadequate coaching.

Then again, maybe the line has been horrible for so long because "these guys are still on the team"...chicken and egg, etc.


I expect some improvement this year, but I don't expect a top 10 line by any means.
Good post, man. I put it on the 'media' just to avoid throwing any fans under the bus at this juncture in Texans history.

Obviously, the undertones that three of our linemen from 2002 are still here speaks volumes (in my mind) about sack responsibility. It is an age-old debate around these parts, and obviously we probably don't want to continue to dissect it at this point in time.

I do not expect any top 10 performances, either. But we do not need a top 10 line to be better than the first five seasons.
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Old 06-12-2007   #37
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Old 06-12-2007   #38
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Originally Posted by hollywood_texan View Post
Cool...

Now if you take away Manning, Harrison, and Freeney and what do you have as a team?

Probably a team a lot like the Texans of 2006.

Your counting one guy that hasn't even played a down yet in the NFL, I am referring to Gonzalez.

I am not criticizing your analysis or what you did. It looks good, but all those other guys status as quality players, rely on the performance of Manning, Harrison, and Freeney. Which is really to my point regarding this theory by McNair.

Of course a team needs several quality players and depth, but very rarely is a team successful without at least 2 star players.

what the heck were the Jets doing in the playoffs last year then? I guess there the exception to the rule?
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Old 06-12-2007   #39
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
I put it on the 'media' just to avoid throwing any fans under the bus at this juncture in Texans history.
Not me! I like to compare history when it occured and how it is revised. You wouldn't be throwing any fans under the bus anyway. Readers will just nod their heads sagely and think, "Oh yeah - THOSE guys".

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
But we do not need a top 10 line to be better than the first five seasons.
Very true.
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Old 06-12-2007   #40
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Default Re: McNair - "In this league, you really need 18-21 quality players..."

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Originally Posted by Il_Bruno View Post
what the heck were the Jets doing in the playoffs last year then? I guess there the exception to the rule?
Good point!

But the Jets were bumped from the playoffs very quickly from a divisional foe. Not sure what that really means in the total analysis.

I know McNair said the playoffs, but if any team is going to make a real push to go deep in the playoffs in the AFC, that team is going to need 2 to 3 star players. Having just 20 quality players isn't going to cut it or guarantee a playoff spot. 2 to 3 star players almost guarantees a shot at the playoffs if they are reasonably healthy.

Get those star players on your roster and probably the rest will take care of itself well with good personnel as a suppporting cast and great coaching.

My point is, focusing on getting 20 quality players shouldn't be the main priority, particularly with the salary cap and free agency. Get 2 to 3 star players that fit your system (untouchable players) and fill out the rest and make adjustments when necessary for whatever reason.

Team turnover is to quick to try and get 20 guys on your squad because they aren't going to be there that long for various reasons.
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