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Old 11-02-2004   #81
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I dont think he disagrees with taking AJ over Suggs, he is just saying that Babin was billed to be the next suggs coming off the edge and hasnt been
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Old 11-02-2004   #82
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Originally Posted by Andre_Johnson80
Thanks for seeing it like that man, But look who we got, the best WR taken in years from what I can see. AJ will continue to show us why we took him third in the draft.. Terrell suggs is awesome and they both would have done us great but I know we did the right thing in taking AJ.
Absolutely ! You know Andre, so much of the exchanges on this board surrounding Babin have been negative, we're gonna have to stop being so congenial or they might throw us off the board for being out of step with the crowd. But yea, Jason Babin is no Terrell Suggs. But as good as Suggs is and ultimately may end up being, I bet AJ beats him to the HOF ! I think our guy could be that great ! We got the best football player in the 2003 NFL college draft ! End of story.
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Old 11-02-2004   #83
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Originally Posted by nunusguy
Especially when many feel we could have patiently waited with our 2 round pick and found him on the board when our turn came around. I guess I figured he would be
the explosive, dominant edge rusher that Suggs turned out to be very early in his NFL career - and Jason is not that. I just gotta lower my expectations.


Babin was not going to be on the board in the second round. The Patriots were going to take him if he was available at #32. In Suggs' rookie season, the Ravens used him as a situational pass rusher because he couldn't defend the run. Now after 1 season, Suggs is playing like a complete OLB. Babin, in his rookie season, plays the run MUCH better than Suggs did in his. Let's give Babin at least a full season before we start judging him. Who knows, maybe Babin's pass rush will improve as much as Suggs did defending the run.
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Old 11-02-2004   #84
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Originally Posted by georgewashington
I dont think he disagrees with taking AJ over Suggs, he is just saying that Babin was billed to be the next suggs coming off the edge and hasnt been
If that is the case he would have been put on the weak side. They put Babin on the strong side because of his run support and all-around game. You put your best pass rusher on the weak side/blind side. We haven't allowed a TD in quite a few quarters now and held the Jags down like no one has. If he was a big liability he would be exploited like Matt Stephens was. Trust me, if you are a weak link in the NFL, coordinators will exploit you.
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Old 11-02-2004   #85
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Dear George

Babin is a monster get of his jock
Peeks your type why dont ya **** his ***k
I'm a democrat along with you
but babin can do things that peek cant do
I know peek can rush tha QB
but when it comes to the rush its babin you'll see
I like babin along with most
peek looks flatter than jelly on toast
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Old 11-02-2004   #86
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Originally Posted by nunusguy
. Especially when many feel we could have patiently waited with our 2 round pick and found him on the board when our turn came around.
Goose Gosslin, the man who has had the best reorcd in projecting the draft the last five years had Babin going aroung 25 to 30, if I remember correctly. So it's really safe to say that not only would he not have been there for us in the second round, he probaly wouldn't even have been ther in teh second round all together.
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Old 11-02-2004   #87
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You guy's are beating a dead horse .


georgewashington the next titanico :hehe:
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Old 11-02-2004   #88
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The way I see this Babin vs. Peek thing is the that Babin has more upside, especially his ability to cover a TE. He may not have the huge motor that Peek does, but close. But he has a lot of other tools that Peek doesn't like the ability to drop into pass coverage.

I thought this was well known and that the coaches have even said this before. Peek is a 100% pass rush guy, and a good addition to the team. He is just more of a specialty type player.

Peek got burned last year when trying to cover a TE. Babin got confused a few times in preseason, but has been right on top of guys during coverage lately.

Am I wrong on this?
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Old 11-02-2004   #89
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This discussion is going no where haha
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Old 11-02-2004   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Htown34s
The way I see this Babin vs. Peek thing is the that Babin has more upside, especially his ability to cover a TE. He may not have the huge motor that Peek does, but close. But he has a lot of other tools that Peek doesn't like the ability to drop into pass coverage.

I thought this was well known and that the coaches have even said this before. Peek is a 100% pass rush guy, and a good addition to the team. He is just more of a specialty type player.

Peek got burned last year when trying to cover a TE. Babin got confused a few times in preseason, but has been right on top of guys during coverage lately.

Am I wrong on this?
I believe peek has had to cover some TE routes this season, without getting burned. The argument is not coverage, its the run stopping. And i have a feeling that if he was in on non-passing downs, he wouldnt be running all over the place like everyone says. But I guess everyone thinks of him as a simpleton who is only capable of running forward. I once again bring up something that ive said before, 100+ tackles his senior year in college, Im sure quite a few of those were stopping the running back, and that also led his team. Maybe like i have said his development would be improving at a faster rate if he too had some playing time. My whole argument this year is taht if everyone says just give babin some time to get use to playing, you cant say Peek wouldnt benefit from a similar opportunity.
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Old 11-02-2004   #91
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Every time Peek was in the game in running situations last year he was picked on and exposed. Teams exploited him because that is what they do when you have a weakness. You don't see Babin get picked on like Peek was last year. Perhaps you didn't see any games last season?
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Old 11-02-2004   #92
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i never said he didnt need to work on run defense, i never said he was perfect at it. i said that he would probably be moving forward faster if he was given more chances, just as everyone is saying that babin will be getting better with his playing chances. and i did see him last season, he did have some mistakes but just like you say babin will make some being a rookie, so did he. i have realized that this really isnt anything to argue about because they are in two different places on the team. babin is going to be given the chance to grow and improve in games, where as peek will have to do it in practice (which in the NFL isnt as likely since there isnt much hitting etc. during practice in season)
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Old 11-02-2004   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgewashington
babin is going to be given the chance to grow and improve in games, where as peek will have to do it in practice (which in the NFL isnt as likely since there isnt much hitting etc. during practice in season)
That's a good point George, and its really a form of economic discrimination
that Peek is living under because the Texans have far less invested in him
than they do Babin. And there's politices to because Babin is a guy C&C
have made a big gamble on with the huge payday the Titans got when they
handed over their 1st rounder to them. The ole man(McNair) would not look favorably on so much being spent on a dud. But having said all this, it may be that Babin is the best guy for the job anyway. It just seems kinda unfair to
Peek that he doesn't get the same opportunity that Babin does - but as they
say, life is unfair.
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Old 11-02-2004   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Wong had 34 tackles and 5.5 sacks on the strong side OLB his first year here starting all 16 games. That is the same side Babin is on. It takes time, and the OLB will not get the majority of the tackles in this defense, but you need to understand that to grasp that.

And Vinny i just looked up this little fact of yours, and i believe on teh texans page it says that in wongs first year with the texans he "Started in all 16 games, tying for third on defense with 5 sacks…added 89 tackles, one forced fumble and two passes defensed" looks like im not the only one that has no idea what im talking about. and in 2003 he had 86 tackles. Thats pretty many for a guy playing LOLB who doesnt shouldnt get a majority of the tackles?
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Old 11-02-2004   #95
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Default Look at his game logs

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12840

Year Team G Total Tckl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
1998 Minnesota Vikings 15 19 17.0 2 1.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 1
1999 Minnesota Vikings 13 48 35.0 13 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2000 Minnesota Vikings 16 112 84.0 28 2 2 28 14.0 14 0 2
2001 Minnesota Vikings 16 98 83.0 15 3 1 27 27.0 27 1 3
2002 Houston Texans 16 43 34.0 9 5.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 8

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpag.../gamelogs/2002

GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
09/08 Dallas W 19-10 Yes 2.0 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
09/15 @San Diego L 3-24 Yes 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
09/22 Indianapolis L 3-23 Yes 1.0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
09/29 @Philadelphia L 17-35 Yes 2.0 2 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

October Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
10/13 Buffalo L 24-31 Yes 3.0 2 1 0.5 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 0 0
10/20 @Cleveland L 17-34 Yes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
10/27 @Jacksonville W 21-19 Yes 4.0 4 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

November Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
11/03 Cincinnati L 3-38 Yes 3.0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
11/10 @Tennessee L 10-17 Yes 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
11/17 Jacksonville L 21-24 Yes 2.0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
11/24 New York W 16-14 Yes 3.0 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0

December Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
12/01 @Indianapolis L 3-19 Yes 3.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
12/08 @Pittsburgh W 24-6 Yes 2.0 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
12/15 Baltimore L 19-23 Yes 2.0 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
12/22 @Washington L 10-26 Yes 1.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0
12/29 Tennessee L 3-13 Yes 2.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
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Old 11-02-2004   #96
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Peek has had every opportunity to crack the starting lineup. He's been a starter for some games, been through 2 training camps and still has not been able to unseat a veteran. Babin is better, that is just a fact. He has the smarts, power and speed to hold his position on every play. Peek is simplay more of a project than Babin, Peek probably is taking more time to excel at the position of OLB, similar to progression that Joey Porter, Jason Gildon, Mike Vrabel and many others that have had to convert to a 3-4 system coming out of college. Peek is perfect right now for where he is positioned, 3rd down pass situations. He is slowly being brought along and should be able to crack a spot next year, typically the time when players like him start to grasp the system. I've watched Babin pretty close, as pretty much everyone has, and he is looking very solid for being a rookie in the 3-4. Could the same be said for Peek if he were inserted there in his rookie year? No, he had his share of troubles last year.
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Old 11-02-2004   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12840

Year Team G Total Tckl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
1998 Minnesota Vikings 15 19 17.0 2 1.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 1
1999 Minnesota Vikings 13 48 35.0 13 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2000 Minnesota Vikings 16 112 84.0 28 2 2 28 14.0 14 0 2
2001 Minnesota Vikings 16 98 83.0 15 3 1 27 27.0 27 1 3
2002 Houston Texans 16 43 34.0 9 5.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 8

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpag.../gamelogs/2002

GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
09/08 Dallas W 19-10 Yes 2.0 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
09/15 @San Diego L 3-24 Yes 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
09/22 Indianapolis L 3-23 Yes 1.0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
09/29 @Philadelphia L 17-35 Yes 2.0 2 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

October Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
10/13 Buffalo L 24-31 Yes 3.0 2 1 0.5 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 0 0
10/20 @Cleveland L 17-34 Yes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
10/27 @Jacksonville W 21-19 Yes 4.0 4 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

November Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
11/03 Cincinnati L 3-38 Yes 3.0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
11/10 @Tennessee L 10-17 Yes 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
11/17 Jacksonville L 21-24 Yes 2.0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
11/24 New York W 16-14 Yes 3.0 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0

December Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
12/01 @Indianapolis L 3-19 Yes 3.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
12/08 @Pittsburgh W 24-6 Yes 2.0 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
12/15 Baltimore L 19-23 Yes 2.0 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
12/22 @Washington L 10-26 Yes 1.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0
12/29 Tennessee L 3-13 Yes 2.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

I guess i stand corrected, i was just quoting the texans web page
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Old 11-03-2004   #98
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If you look further at this years rookie crop you can see that Babin is doing just fine

12 pick, J. Vilma, 27 tackles, 1.5 sacks
14 pick, T. Harris, 15 tackles, 2.5 sacks
17 pick, DJ WIllimas, 39 tackles, 1 sack
18 pick, Will Smith, 13 tackles, 2 sacks
20 pick, Udeze, Kenechi, 14 tackles, 3 sacks
21 pick, Vince Wilfork, 14 tackles, 2 sacks
23 pick, Marcus Tubbs, 2 tackles, 0 sacks
27 pick, Jason Babin, 18 tackles, 2 sacks
33 pick, Carlos Dansby, 13 tackles, 1 sack
35 pick, I. Olshansky, 17 tackles, 1 sack
37 pick, T. Lehman, 35 tackles, 0 sacks
42 pick, T. LaBoy, 5 tackels, 2.5 sacks
48 pick, Dontarrious Thomas, 28 tackles, 1 sack


Come on now young pup, give Babin a little slack, he is stacking up well with 1st round picks or at least take into consideration that when compared to where we drafted him he is not doing any worse.

Last edited by SESupergenius; 11-03-2004 at 12:30 AM.
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Old 11-03-2004   #99
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well.. look at those stats, then consider the fact that the only guys doing better than him are Williams, Vilma, Lehman, and Thomas.. and they arent learning a new position like Babin (and none of em have 2 sacks).

Way I see it.. Babin is allowed to be average to sub-par this year. Next year I expect him to show that he deserved to be a 1st rounder. and his third year.. I HOPE for him to show everyone that our front office has a nose for playmakers and for him to be considered one of the better OLBs in the league. Hes off to a good start in my book.
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Old 11-03-2004   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgewashington
I guess i stand corrected, i was just quoting the texans web page
Welcome to the forum George. We have a small group that has been discussing football here for years. Most of us know who grasps the game well (amongst our long time posters), and frankly we don't know you in any other manner except that you have come in sideways on the rookie and bring an argument that has a weak foundation and no basis. I've done it myself. We all learn something collectively when you (or anyone) brings forth a good argument and can back it up with a bit of logic and rational thought. Hang in there and you will learn a few things from guys like ses, aj, infantrycak, Lucky and many of our other long-term posters (too many to mention, but you will figure out who knows his stuff and who doesn't as you measure their comments with what happens on the field). I'm sure we can learn a thing or two from you also. Just throw down your take and back it up. I've been owned by Ses, aj, Lucky, and a few others over the years on a few issues from time to time. I throw out a ton of opinion so I'm going to be wrong sometimes. In turn, I'm sure I've probably changed their thinking on a few issues from time to time. We know how you feel on this issue. Perhaps if you came at it less absoutely you would find more acceptance to your point of view.

Give a little, take a little. It's all good.

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