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Old 06-17-2007   #241
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

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Originally Posted by Overalls View Post
I was a Carr fan all the way up till the last part of last season. 2 TDs in 10 games won't cut it.
But you were never just a fan of the Texans because your Favorite player was on the team
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Old 06-17-2007   #242
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

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But you were never just a fan of the Texans because your Favorite player was on the team
I was a fan before Torro rode the helicopter to Jillians.
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Old 06-17-2007   #243
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

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I was a fan before Torro rode the helicopter to Jillians.
Hell yeah! I don't post much but I spy daily !

I see you on the rivals boards Give them Hell Sir!
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Old 06-17-2007   #244
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

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Specnatz,

First of all, of course it is my opinion. I never intended for my conclusion about the possibility of a mass exodus of season ticket holders to be presented as a fact, but you are wrong when you say that the Texans were only derided for passing on Reggie Bush at the time of the draft. I remember very clearly how they were ridiculed. You are correct that there was a far greater cry nationally over passing on Reggie Bush then there was for passing on Vince Young, but there still was criticism over passing on Vince Young as well. Finally, I've been a member of the message board longer than you have, so don't act like I'm not a fan of the Texans, just because you don't agree with my post or because I am willing to be critical of some of their personnel moves. Don't be fooled by my low post count, either. I had far more but I was banned once over what was percieved as a sexual insinuation. When you are banned they erase all of your posts.
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I am not even sure f you are a Texan fan, at least by your recent post.


I did not say you were not a fan I questioned it based on post in this thread. I have been critical of some decisions and have said all along that everyone shares blame over the last few years. I still disagree about vy (except local) I just do not recal vy ever being discussed in the national media as an option it was all about the KR.
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Old 06-17-2007   #245
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

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Originally Posted by BattleRedToro View Post
That's cool. I am a Texans fan, and a football fan in general, but I hate the business side of the NFL, especially when I see my favorite team make a move that I feel was predicated on appease a malcontent part of their fanbase. Despite that, I am still a Texans fan though.

So you think Carr should have stayed ?
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Old 06-17-2007   #246
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

Business had nothing to do with Carr leaving. That is silly.

If business were driving this ship VY or RB would be a Texan.


Carr is a bad QB. Our line isn't great.

If you have a mediocre QB you can win. If you have a dominant QB you are always in the hunt.If you have a BAD QB you can't win regardless.

Last edited by real; 06-17-2007 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 06-17-2007   #247
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

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Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx View Post
Business had nothing to do with Carr leaving. That is silly.

If business were driving this ship VY or RB would be a Texan.


Carr is a bad QB. Our line isn't great.

If you have a mediocre QB you can win. If you have a dominant QB you are always in the hunt.If you have a BAD QB you can't win regardless.
Go back and read my posts explaining how I see it as a business decision.

Now, if you substitute Offensive Line for everytime you wrote QB in that last sentence you would finally be correct about football. In other words it reads as such in its corrected form:

If you have a mediocre Offensive Line you can win. If you have a dominant Offensive Line you are always in the hunt.If you have a BAD Offensive Line you can't win regardless.
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Old 06-17-2007   #248
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

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I am merely saying that the O-Line is bad and because of this I am unable to make a fair judgement of David Carr and for posting such as this my posts have been derided by you as ignorant.
That's really not my problem. If you can't judge players based on their own performance then so be it. In that case I'm not sure anyone could ever take your assessment of someones ability to play football seriously because it's as if you fail to acknowledge players abilities past the lines...either that or you just have trouble recognizing it. You haven't given one valid reason why you think the O-line is bad other than the same old re-hash of 'David gets sacked a lot' and I've seen the line 'breakdown a lot'. Heck, you're not even naming specific players. All you're doing is making a blind obsevation with no facts of your own; only blind analysis of the national media. That is why I called your post ignorant. I haven't seen you post one piece of your own analysis unless you call 'I've seen the line breakdown' analysis.
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Old 06-17-2007   #249
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

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Go back and read my posts explaining how I see it as a business decision.

Now, if you substitute Offensive Line for everytime you wrote QB in that last sentence you would finally be correct about football. In other words it reads as such in its corrected form:

If you have a mediocre Offensive Line you can win. If you have a dominant Offensive Line you are always in the hunt.If you have a BAD Offensive Line you can't win regardless.
Well see that's the thing. I don't think O-lines vary that much...

What was the difference between the Colts o-line and the Steelers this past year ?

What about the cowboys and the patriots ?

What about the Bears and the Rams ?

The Titans and the Seahawks ?

What team in the NFL would you say that has a dominant O-line that is 'always' in the hunt regardless of who's behind center?

You can look at a game and easily tell the difference between the QB's. Not so much with the lines. You would pretty much have to record the games and actually sit down and break down the films. Because QB A gets sacked more than QB B does not mean that QB A's line is worst. I'm just looking for some substance as to why you think our line is bad. I haven't gotten any yet.
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Old 06-18-2007   #250
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

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Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx View Post
Well see that's the thing. I don't think O-lines vary that much...

What was the difference between the Colts o-line and the Steelers this past year ?

What about the cowboys and the patriots ?

What about the Bears and the Rams ?

The Titans and the Seahawks ?

What team in the NFL would you say that has a dominant O-line that is 'always' in the hunt regardless of who's behind center?

You can look at a game and easily tell the difference between the QB's. Not so much with the lines. You would pretty much have to record the games and actually sit down and break down the films. Because QB A gets sacked more than QB B does not mean that QB A's line is worst. I'm just looking for some substance as to why you think our line is bad. I haven't gotten any yet.
The way I see it you can look at a game and easily tell the difference between the performance of 2 QB's. That isn't the same thing as the difference between the 2 QB's themselves because every QB's perfomance, and for that matter each players peformance, is dependent on the play of everyone else. That is what makes it so difficult to compare players, but that being said it can be done to a certain degree. I really don't think that you realize that even though in my opinion the Texans O-line is terrible I still concede that David Carr still could have played better than he did, but short of some miracle the Texans were never going to be competitive with the way that their O-line played.

Now, as for analysis, I'm sorry, but I really don't have the time or the film to do the thorough analysis that you desire to hear from me. I really wish I could, but I fear it still wouldn't dissuade your opinion on the matter, which would make it all the more frustrating because it would mean I had wasted my time.

I arrive at my opinion that the Texans O-line is bad from watching the games, and nothing more. I provided the opinion of other people that are in the sports media only to support my opinion, not to form it, as you have implied.
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Old 06-18-2007   #251
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

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The way I see it you can look at a game and easily tell the difference between the performance of 2 QB's. That isn't the same thing as the difference between the 2 QB's themselves because every QB's perfomance, and for that matter each players peformance, is dependent on the play of everyone else.
So how in hades do you come to the determination that is was moreso on the O-line rather than David Carr? If you have trouble looking at a game and being able to tell which players are good and which ones aren't because "each players performance is dependent on the play of everyone else" how can you come to a sound conclusion on anyone ?

For one, I don't agree with that line of thinking. I think it's fairly easy to look at players and tell if they're good or not. I don't care if you have the last ranked O-line in the leauge (which we didn't) 2 td's over the last 10 games is out of line. The fact that we won the Oakland game while David Carr amassed a whopping -5 passing yards says a lot about the play of "others around him".

Good players look good, and bad ones look bad. It's that simple. David Carr didn't have the best protection in the world, but there was enough protection for an NFL starting QB to atleast have us in games and not costing them. Sacks aren't always on the O-line; recievers need to run good routes and get open, O-line needs to block, RB's need to block when needed, QB needs to have pocket presence and be able to make pre-snap reads. If David had any inclination to greatness wouldn't you be able to see signs of it ? Where are the positives of David past his 'measurables'...past his college stats ? What positives can you give about the guy's play ?

It will be very interesting to see Schuab behind center because honestly I think a lot of fans perception of our O-line will change a little bit.

Last edited by real; 06-18-2007 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 06-18-2007   #252
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

In the second game against the Colts Kubiak said he told Carr that he was'nt going to have much time . Carr responded by holding the ball at hip level , waiting until he got popped in the back forcing a fumble . That's an example of bad mechanics and no feel .

I see the line being average on their best day . I also think they did'nt believe in their QB ... they did'nt have that feeling if I can hold my guy , he'll make a play mentality .

I think that any team that watched film knew two things , he locked unto his recievers and he will not burn a defense on a blitz . So why not blitz and blitz again .

Some say it's coaching but I have to feel he was coached down for a reason . Pendry was good enough to get the Panthers to the NFC title game and Palmer was good enough to be hired by Parcells after he left the Texans .

Mckinney , Pitts , Weary , Wand , Wade , Wiegert , Flannigan , Hodgon , Spencer , Winston , Brown , Spears , and whoever . We must have cornered the market for sorry offensive linemen . We tried all these guys but never benched the QB to see if it was the chicken or the egg .
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Old 06-18-2007   #253
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

I'm done with the Carr talk ... he's not on the Texans and we'll find out soon enough how much of the problem he was .
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Old 06-18-2007   #254
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

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Originally Posted by Honoring Earl 34
he's not on the Texans and we'll find out soon enough how much of the problem he was..
His results will depend on how fast his confidence is built. 40+ sacks per year should cause permenant fear of being hit to any QB. Heck if Peyton was smacked down as much he'd be constantly watching his back after every snap.

I'm guessing Carolina will try to play Carr as much as possible during pre-season to help build back his confidence and trust in a new o-line.

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Old 06-18-2007   #255
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

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Originally Posted by BattleRedToro View Post
The way I see it you can look at a game and easily tell the difference between the performance of 2 QB's. That isn't the same thing as the difference between the 2 QB's themselves because every QB's perfomance, and for that matter each players peformance, is dependent on the play of everyone else. That is what makes it so difficult to compare players, but that being said it can be done to a certain degree. I really don't think that you realize that even though in my opinion the Texans O-line is terrible I still concede that David Carr still could have played better than he did, but short of some miracle the Texans were never going to be competitive with the way that their O-line played.

Now, as for analysis, I'm sorry, but I really don't have the time or the film to do the thorough analysis that you desire to hear from me. I really wish I could, but I fear it still wouldn't dissuade your opinion on the matter, which would make it all the more frustrating because it would mean I had wasted my time.

I arrive at my opinion that the Texans O-line is bad from watching the games, and nothing more. I provided the opinion of other people that are in the sports media only to support my opinion, not to form it, as you have implied.
I've been pretty much staying out of this. I don't normally go for the rivalry talk threads but...

When a normal fan is watching a game, they see what the network shows of the plays being run. They don't really see everything.

To really be able to judge someone, you have to know what they were supposed to do and what they actually did and what they could have done. We fans do not know what plays were called, what reads should have been performed. We don't have the film showing us who was open. We don't know what call should have been made and which lineman should have done what on a particular play.

Only the coaches and the players really know.

It's my belief that Kubiak saw old film on Carr and saw him making obvious and easily correctible mistakes. I think that Kubiak figured that he could teach David to stop making those mistakes. But when he got here and started working with him, Carr continued to make the same mistakes in game situations. I think Carr looked fine in practice but when the bullets were flying, I think he went back to doing things "wrong". I base this on several comments Kubiak made during the season.

I think that Kubiak looked at our game film and knowing what he knows about what plays were called and what was available, came to the conclusion that Carr was a much bigger problem than the offensive line.

On a slightly different issue, he said several times during the season (at least early in the season) that our running backs weren't seeing the right cutbacks and were not picking up the yardage that they should.

I think that's why we didn't see a wholesale revamping of our offensive line. I mean, think about it. At the cost that we paid for Schaub, we could have made some major changes in our offensive line. There were a lot of trades and draft picks that we could have made if Kubiak had identified that as our primary malfunction. I don't think that Kubiak is dumb enough to have a horrible offensive line and try to hide it by bringing in better skill players.
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Old 06-18-2007   #256
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I don't think Kubiak ever believed Carr to be a good QB, capable of taking this team to the next level....

I think the reason that Kubiak left Carr in even when it was evident that we played better with Sage, was because he wanted to showcase what Carr could do and he did nothing...

I think the main person that needed to be convinced David was not the QB for us was Mr. Mcnair...By leaving David in and putting pressure on him it showed his inability to respond...

No more questions about it; he isn't that good...time to move on...
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Old 06-18-2007   #257
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When a normal fan is watching a game, they see what the network shows of the plays being run. They don't really see everything.

To really be able to judge someone, you have to know what they were supposed to do and what they actually did and what they could have done. We fans do not know what plays were called, what reads should have been performed. We don't have the film showing us who was open. We don't know what call should have been made and which lineman should have done what on a particular play.
I disagree with this...

It's like your saying that your opinion doesn't matter because you can't really judge the players anyways...Only the coaches can...

I think some positions are harder to judge than others, like DT or O-line...And I think there are a lot of misconceptions about some positions...like seeing a guy catch an 83 yard bomb and assuming the cb's suck or seeing the QB getting sacked and assuming the line sucks...

It's true that as a fan you can't make as informed an opinion as the coaches can, but there have been many many posters on this board who have been able to look at players and make determinations about there ability....some I agree with, some I don't; but that doesn't change the fact that they are basing there opinions from their knowledge of the game, and the same live action or bradcast as the rest of us....
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Old 06-18-2007   #258
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

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I think some positions are harder to judge than others, like DT or O-line...And I think there are a lot of misconceptions about some positions...like seeing a guy catch an 83 yard bomb and assuming the cb's suck or seeing the QB getting sacked and assuming the line sucks...
But when your D gives up back to back 83 yard bombs, its pretty easy to summize that your D sucks...in that summation:
D-line - no pressure,
Petey Faggins - not a shut-down corner (better suited to be a nickel)
Safety/ Free Safety - sorely need to be upgraded.

Bottom line - the D sucked (to that point of the season - but we all know they did improve in the second half of the season).
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Old 06-18-2007   #259
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But when your D gives up back to back 83 yard bombs, its pretty easy to summize that your D sucks...in that summation:
D-line - no pressure,
Petey Faggins - not a shut-down corner (better suited to be a nickel)
Safety/ Free Safety - sorely need to be upgraded.

Bottom line - the D sucked (to that point of the season - but we all know they did improve in the second half of the season).
I agree with this...

I was just talking about specific positions though...

Petey definitely isn't the best in the business, but the play calling and lack of pressure can probably shelve a little of the blame as well...

Overall they were just a poor unit as a whole to start things off...but that probably had a lot to do with lack of cohesiveness, and learning a new system; and that goes for the coaches as well as the players...
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Old 06-18-2007   #260
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Default Re: Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

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I disagree with this...

It's like your saying that your opinion doesn't matter because you can't really judge the players anyways...Only the coaches can...

I think some positions are harder to judge than others, like DT or O-line...And I think there are a lot of misconceptions about some positions...like seeing a guy catch an 83 yard bomb and assuming the cb's suck or seeing the QB getting sacked and assuming the line sucks...

It's true that as a fan you can't make as informed an opinion as the coaches can, but there have been many many posters on this board who have been able to look at players and make determinations about there ability....some I agree with, some I don't; but that doesn't change the fact that they are basing there opinions from their knowledge of the game, and the same live action or bradcast as the rest of us....
Dude. Our opinions don't matter at all. But I think you're misinterpreting what I was saying because you're saying the same thing I am.

We fans can make judgments but they're based on incomplete information. This past season what I saw led me to believe that our line wasn't the problem with our offense. From where I sitting, I saw bad play from our QB. This doesn't mean that our o-line was great but I felt that our QB was making all phases of our team look worse.

BattleRedToro watched the same games and came to a different conclusion. He concluded that the o-line was the problem with both Carr's performance and with our running game.

I'm saying that only the coaches can definitively identify who's at fault. If they're good, they should be able to. They know who was where, what they did, and what they should have done. I think our coaches are good enough to know what the problems were last year and I think you can tell just by the moves they made what they thought those problems were.
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