Carr-Schwab-Williams-Young

[BattleRedToro]

The reason for the lack of knowledge of the fundamentals of football by the casual fan of the NFL is the way in which it is marketed. The NFL is a business and as such they market the so-called playmakers: QB, RB, and WR, far more then Offensive Linemen so that they can sell more merchandise and that is fine, but the only problem is it generates a fanbase that is fairly ignorant of why a team is truly succesful or not. Although the style of play today is very different than it was when the NFL started the fundamental reason for success or failure hasn't changed. It still remains a battle of lineplay. The teams that win consistently have good lineplay and the ones that lose don't have good lineplay. It is just that simple. I don't care what statistics a person throws out there for evidence about whether an O-line or D-Line is good or not, they will never tell the whole story, and that is why one must watch the O-Line or D-Line and see how they play instead of just looking at a boxscore.

[Blazing Arrow]

Originally Posted by Specnatz

Yes Carr is faster and more mobile than some QBs including Schaub and Peyton but that does not mean he knows what to do with it.

When did the Texans get a line that could even wash the jocks of the line in Indi? The weakness in Manning is getting pressure on him and being consistent with it. The pats have used it almost every game and very effectively in the playoffs; that mixed with an O that can control the clock.

Now I am not comparing Schaub to anyone but for examble .... Joe Montana was not very moblie but he was elusive, he knew when to step-up in the pocket and throw the ball and get it to a WR, RB or a TE.

Dude you seriously should not bring up 9er history from a guy who lived it. Montana was a very mobile QB until his back injury. Allot of people credit (S)Young’s vision to run because he was under Montana. If I remember correctly Joe’s back injury came on a run play. But like a solid QB that can scramble over time you learn you do not need to scramble but let the D believe that you might and just let the whole work for you..

When Carr scrambled he would on more occassions than not run out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage and that constitues a sack. When you fumble the ball and fall on it, it is counted as a sack. Inwco you have a window, especially on slant patterens where you have to get the ball out quickly and in perfect timing, since you say you watch about 6 games a year, how good was he at doing that or checking down to the next option?

I think you generalize too much. You say a QB should go through his progression down the deep to the middle to the short to the RB/FB. I understand the logic but you think of the game way to XO and treat the QB more like a machine then a person. Carr’s big issue was he would look his #1 look then check down to his FB/RB or short WR. He does this because he does not need to lead with as much strength and can get the ball out faster. He should be looking middle of the field but has been shell shocked over the seasons that if he makes that read and there is coverage he is in the turf. So his options are 2WR chance of loss on play, or dump and maybe gain 3 probably not lose any yards. Allot of QBs do it. A Smith, McNair, Collins, Green, (any Raiders QB), Rivers, Brees. It usually works well on a run happy team.

Your arguments and trying to bad mouth the line with any real information is not holding water.

Do I really need to point out that Carr went down another 41 times last season? You act like it is a shock that anyone would question the Texans O-line when they consistently are in the tops with sacks allowed on there starting QB.

Just like espin .. Nice draft but they did not draft an OL with the 10th pick, forget there was none available without a huge reach. Schelareth (sp) actually said the texans did not draft a lineman. This coming from a 10th round draft pick. You are not making strong arguements what so ever, like you said to DB, your repeating yourself, but you are not actually saying anything of real substance.

Honestly I see little fault in what the Texans did in the 1st round (maybe no the down trade but only 2 spots). If you get Mario the year before you better get a DT or LB to help him out the next season. You scored with D Ryans so a stud DT IMO was an obvious choice. Any thing less and the media really questions what you are committed too.

As said before pick a side O/D and stick with it. If you jump you will be a team like the Jags that is in limbo.

[Specnatz]

Originally Posted by BattleRedToro

Yes and the reasons his ypc avg went down can be directly attributed to the lack of passing protection provided by the O-Line. You see low ypc avg is the symptom and bad O-line play is the disease. The way I see it is that many who post here are misdiagnosing the disease with its symptoms.

It could also be attributed his poor performance with fumbling the ball and his ability to not check down and to read once so the coaching staff created the dink and dunk method because of his inability to read a defense and lock onto one receiver.

As far as getting rid of a player based upon a business decision, you are 100%, they wanted to win games and the best way to do that was get rid of Carr. If the Texans had to actually worry about selling tickets (all games are sold out and all season tickets are sold) they would have drafted vy. This is not about money and revenue. Anyone who says that has no idea the finance of football or the Texans. Getting rid of Carr now cost the texans money, not because of sales or tickets or anything of that nature, it cost the Texans money because of signing bonus given to Carr.

This has been played out to the hilt, yes the OL has stunk some but a QB with poor pocket pressence can make a line look far worse than it is. Just as a QB with great pocket pressence can make a line look great. Can you guess where Carr fits into that?

[Specnatz]

Originally Posted by Blazing Arrow

Do I really need to point out that Carr went down another 41 times last season? You act like it is a shock that anyone would question the Texans O-line when they consistently are in the tops with sacks allowed on there starting QB.


Honestly I see little fault in what the Texans did in the 1st round (maybe no the down trade but only 2 spots). If you get Mario the year before you better get a DT or LB to help him out the next season. You scored with D Ryans so a stud DT IMO was an obvious choice. Any thing less and the media really questions what you are committed too.

As said before pick a side O/D and stick with it. If you jump you will be a team like the Jags that is in limbo.

The Italic part: This is the problem, you say carr went down 41 times, but honestly how did he cause himself? I know of at the very least 12 right off the top of my head without even having to go back and watch any games. That right there would put them in the top 10. Add Green at rb and Leach at fb and that should be reduced by even more.

The bold part: I could not agree more.

[ReliantTexan]

Originally Posted by aj.

If I was making a case for Carr, about the last thing I'd do is cite his completion percentage from last year. That's a bit of a dead giveaway that he doesn't have a good platform to speak from on the Texans - aside from they were a bad team which any pre-K can conclude. The completion percentage argument is even more lame than blaming everything on the offensive line.

Yeah and if he did watch Texans games and still made a case for Carr because of his completion %. Well then his opinion is about as useless as a rubber nail.

[Blazing Arrow]

Originally Posted by Specnatz

The Italic part: This is the problem, you say carr went down 41 times, but honestly how did he cause himself? I know of at the very least 12 right off the top of my head without even having to go back and watch any games. That right there would put them in the top 10. Add Green at rb and Leach at fb and that should be reduced by even more.

delusional:a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

A QB going down can be blamed on the QB from time to time but even the best need time on certain plays. You can blame the QB for the years past but you set yourself up for heart break.

If Shammy goes down 30+ times next seaons who do you blame then?

[frequentfliertx]

I still can't believe that people are trashing DC. He's gone. Forget about the past. We should be focusing on the future of our football team. Hopefully, Schaub will pan out. He's only played two NFL games (losing both) so how much faith can you put into a QB with that track record. He's on our team now so we should really give him our support. Actually, I really wanted Vince Young to be our QB but afterall, you can't have everything. Oh,well! GO TEXANS!!!

[BattleRedToro]

Originally Posted by Specnatz

It could also be attributed his poor performance with fumbling the ball and his ability to not check down and to read once so the coaching staff created the dink and dunk method because of his inability to read a defense and lock onto one receiver.

As far as getting rid of a player based upon a business decision, you are 100%, they wanted to win games and the best way to do that was get rid of Carr. If the Texans had to actually worry about selling tickets (all games are sold out and all season tickets are sold) they would have drafted vy. This is not about money and revenue. Anyone who says that has no idea the finance of football or the Texans. Getting rid of Carr now cost the texans money, not because of sales or tickets or anything of that nature, it cost the Texans money because of signing bonus given to Carr.

This has been played out to the hilt, yes the OL has stunk some but a QB with poor pocket pressence can make a line look far worse than it is. Just as a QB with great pocket pressence can make a line look great. Can you guess where Carr fits into that?

My point was that it is very possible that the Texans made a football decision instead of a business decision when they decided to extend Carr instead of drafting Vince Young and were summarily crucified for it by the press and the fans, so in an attempt to win back fans and the media the Texans then made a business decision and replaced Carr. That is exactly how I see it.

[Specnatz]

Originally Posted by Blazing Arrow

delusional:a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

A QB going down can be blamed on the QB from time to time but even the best need time on certain plays. You can blame the QB for the years past but you set yourself up for heart break.

If Shammy goes down 30+ times next seaons who do you blame then?

If a frog had wings he would not bump his ass when he hopped. You can put in all the ifs you want but they are not facts, so trying to make a point on what might happen is where everyone knows you have no argument.

Originally Posted by BattleRedToro

My point was that it is very possible that the Texans made a football decision instead of a business decision when they decided to extend Carr instead of drafting Vince Young and were summarily crucified for it by the press and the fans, so in an attempt to win back fans and the media the Texans then made a business decision and replaced Carr. That is exactly how I see it.

What press are you talking about? ut paper, the strokers in Austin or on 610? The national media, and they still do, say carr was screwed by the Texans they say he has the tools and the Texans did nothing for him. Seriously, the only people claiming that it was a mistake (AT THE TIME) not to take vy was local ut folks. Then of course after vy had a very good season everyone came out of the wood work saying how do you pass on him. When these same dumbasses said it would take at least two years of vy sitting on the bench.

Win what fans back? The Texans still have a waiting list for season tickets as they did last year and the year before and the two years before that. So a bunch of ut fans scalped tickets and were at the games last year, they are not and nor will they ever be Texans fans, they love ut football not the Texans, most of those buttmonkeys who wore vy jerseys in Reliant stadium are probably cowgirl fans. I could careless about them.


You can't win fans back who were not fans in the first place!!

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by Blazing Arrow

If Shammy goes down 30+ times next seaons who do you blame then?

Well gee Alex, I'll try ignorant NFL questions for $1000.

Only 11 teams gave up less than 30 sacks last season. I'm guessing Texan fans will be rejoicing if they are in the top half of the league in that stat.

[ChildressTitanMan]

Your own Andre Johnson on Carr.

He said it was disappointing that Carr, who was the first pick in the 2002 draft, wasn't able to succeed in Houston and offered an opinion why. Johnson was the third overall pick in 2003.

"From my first year here, I think it was the way he was coached," Johnson said.

"My first couple of years here he was pretty much just told where to throw the ball at, and a lot of people didn't know that. He was never really taught to go through reads and things like that. Once coach (Gary) Kubiak came in, that was his big thing, teaching him how to go through reads. So it was like he was starting all over again."

http://www.nfl.com/teams/story/HOU/10106365

Maybe you can credit only taking 41 sacks to some improvement on Carr's part. Schaub is IMO still going to have protection issues.

[BattleRedToro]

Originally Posted by Specnatz

If a frog had wings he would not bump his ass when he hopped. You can put in all the ifs you want but they are not facts, so trying to make a point on what might happen is where everyone knows you have no argument.




What press are you talking about? ut paper, the strokers in Austin or on 610? The national media, and they still do, say carr was screwed by the Texans they say he has the tools and the Texans did nothing for him. Seriously, the only people claiming that it was a mistake (AT THE TIME) not to take vy was local ut folks. Then of course after vy had a very good season everyone came out of the wood work saying how do you pass on him. When these same dumbasses said it would take at least two years of vy sitting on the bench.

Win what fans back? The Texans still have a waiting list for season tickets as they did last year and the year before and the two years before that. So a bunch of ut fans scalped tickets and were at the games last year, they are not and nor will they ever be Texans fans, they love ut football not the Texans, most of those buttmonkeys who wore vy jerseys in Reliant stadium are probably cowgirl fans. I could careless about them.


You can't win fans back who were not fans in the first place!!

That is totally revisionist history on your part. I distinctly remember the Texans being ridiculed for passing on both Vince Young and Reggie Bush immediately after the draft, not just at the conclusion of the season. The criticism of the Texans for drafting Mario Williams started immediately and not just locally as you claim. It was nationwide.

The fact that the Texans still have a waiting list for season tickets just reinforces my point. That point being that had they stayed with David Carr at QB then there would have been many people not renewing their season tickets and therefore you wouldn't have the waiting list that you currently have. In my opinion, it became very apparent to Bob McNair that a change had to be made at QB to give the fans hope of a turn around, after he saw the many poorly attended games last year and the threat of the mass exodus of season ticket holders. Bob McNair is a smart business man and he wasn't about to allow his team to lose its profitability. Sometimes in business and politics blame for the failures of the whole are disproportionately allocated to one person that is allowed to take the fall to the benefit of those who remain behind. That isn't to say that the scapegoat is entirely innocent of blame, just that he isn't deserving of the full blame of the failures of the whole.

[Honoring Earl 34]

That isn't to same that the scapegoat is entirely innocent of blame, just that he isn't deserving of the full blame of the failures of the whole.

That's a fair statement . Carr just happen to be the face of the franchise in a football town . That's why he got the big bucks and to expect the fans to stick with him year after year of losing was just naive

If basketball were king ... Tmac or Yao would get the brunt of the heat .

[Specnatz]

Originally Posted by BattleRedToro

That is totally revisionist history on your part. I distinctly remember the Texans being ridiculed for passing on both Vince Young and Reggie Bush immediately after the draft, not just at the conclusion of the season. The criticism of the Texans for drafting Mario Williams started immediately and not just locally as you claim. It was nationwide.

The fact that the Texans still have a waiting list for season tickets just reinforces my point. That point being that had they stayed with David Carr at QB then there would have been many people not renewing their season tickets and therefore you wouldn't have the waiting list that you currently have. In my opinion, it became very apparent to Bob McNair that a change had to be made at QB to give the fans hope of a turn around, after he saw the many poorly attended games last year and the threat of the mass exodus of season ticket holders. Bob McNair is a smart business man and he wasn't about to allow his team to lose its profitability. Sometimes in business and politics blame for the failures of the whole are disproportionately allocated to one person that is allowed to take the fall to the benefit of those who remain behind. That isn't to say that the scapegoat is entirely innocent of blame, just that he isn't deserving of the full blame of the failures of the whole.

This is not fact, it is an opinion only, you do not know that nor can you say that you do. Look around how many season ticket holders are here on this board and ask if they would have renewed rthere tickets and I am sure that most would say yes.

As far as vy, goes it is not revisionist history at all. Kiper and the lones at espn and on fox they did not mention vy at the draft they mentioned bush, you cant pass him up. Why would some so called expert say carr can succeed then say they should have taken vy, that would be even more two faced than most of them already are.

I am not even sure f you are a Texan fan, at least by your recent post.

[BattleRedToro]

Specnatz,

First of all, of course it is my opinion. I never intended for my conclusion about the possibility of a mass exodus of season ticket holders to be presented as a fact, but you are wrong when you say that the Texans were only derided for passing on Reggie Bush at the time of the draft. I remember very clearly how they were ridiculed. You are correct that there was a far greater cry nationally over passing on Reggie Bush then there was for passing on Vince Young, but there still was criticism over passing on Vince Young as well. Finally, I've been a member of the message board longer than you have, so don't act like I'm not a fan of the Texans, just because you don't agree with my post or because I am willing to be critical of some of their personnel moves. Don't be fooled by my low post count, either. I had far more but I was banned once over what was percieved as a sexual insinuation. When you are banned they erase all of your posts.

[Topher]

Originally Posted by BattleRedToro

Specnatz,

First of all, of course it is my opinion. I never intended for my conclusion about the possibility of a mass exodus of season ticket holders to be presented as a fact, but you are wrong when you say that the Texans were only derided for passing on Reggie Bush at the time of the draft. I remember very clearly how they were ridiculed. You are correct that there was a far greater cry nationally over passing on Reggie Bush then there was for passing on Vince Young, but there still was criticism over passing on Vince Young as well. Finally, I've been a member of the message board longer than you have, so don't act like I'm not a fan of the Texans, just because you don't agree with my post or because I am willing to be critical of some of their personnel moves. Don't be fooled by my low post count, either. I had far more but I was banned once over what was percieved as a sexual insinuation. When you are banned they erase all of your posts.

Dude you are a Carr Fan. I cant think of ONE post of yours since he was CUT that had anything good to say about the Texans!

[BattleRedToro]

Originally Posted by danklover

Dude you are a Carr Fan. I cant think of ONE post of yours since he was CUT that had anything good to say about the Texans!

That isn't true. I have been an ardent defender of Mario Williams and that hasn't stopped since Carr was cut.

[Topher]

Originally Posted by BattleRedToro

That isn't true. I have been an ardent defender of Mario Williams and that hasn't stopped since Carr was cut.

In all truth I was just giving you a hard time. I could care less if your a Texans fan or not. You have every right to be here and post here! So Cheers!

[BattleRedToro]

Originally Posted by danklover

In all truth I was just giving you a hard time. I could care less if your a Texans fan or not. You have every right to be here and post here! So Cheers!

That's cool. I am a Texans fan, and a football fan in general, but I hate the business side of the NFL, especially when I see my favorite team make a move that I feel was predicated on appease a malcontent part of their fanbase. Despite that, I am still a Texans fan though.

[Overalls]

I was a Carr fan all the way up till the last part of last season. 2 TDs in 10 games won't cut it.