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Old 04-24-2007   #1
gtexan02
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Default Why not do what the fans want

I keep reading about how the FO knows best, and that if something that the fans really want looks like it could happen, and the FO passes it up, it won't matter.

Honestly, I don't think thats a legitimate statement anymore.

The Texans fan base is ready for a turn around.

Last year we had a new coaching staff.
This year we have a new franchise QB.

Those are about the 2 biggest things you can change on a football team.

If we don't win this year, I think a lot of fans are going to get frustrated because there won't be wholesale changes available during next years offseason.

As such, dont you think its time to reward the fans by making an exciting pick?

here are my reasons:

#1) One of our biggest needs on paper is a disrupting DT or a pass rushing end. If we pick ANY DL, a lot of the fanbase is going to be very, very upset. We've spent 3 first round choices in a row on DL, and so far none of them have produced at the level we hoped. To make matters worse, TJ was supposed to be a disrupting DT and Williams was drafted to be a pass rushing DE (despite what many people are saying, he was billed to us as a pass rusher. He was a sack leader in college, too)

The point Im trying to make here is that great DL are very hard to find. And often they appear in other rounds. And many great college 1st round DL fail in the NFL. As such, despite how much we need DL, lets take a year off. Please.

#2) The fanbase is almost always right.
Last year we wanted Reggie Bush or Vince Young. Others wanted to trade down. Others wanted D'Brick. It wasn't until Mario was mentioned as a probable pick that some people jumped onto his bandwagon. And guess what? Reggie, Vince, many other 1sts and to a lesser extent even D'Brick had successful year.

The year before we wanted DJ. The year before that Sean Taylor. All those guys have succeeded. I've yet to see the fanbase go crazy over someone that truly busts.



Anyway, I think if I was FO, I'd go ahead and pay a little attention to the fans. You want AD? You got him if he falls.
You want LaRon? You got him if he falls.

There are worse things a franchise can do than taking a sure thing the fanbase is clamoring for with your 1st pick. (Such as taking another DL)
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Old 04-24-2007   #2
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Bah, the fans aren't always right. Look at Philly with Ricky Williams.
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Old 04-24-2007   #3
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Good luck getting consensus among the fans....

I was a big Mario fan last year while the Bush/VY love was going around and that hasn't changed. Picking VY or Bush wouldn't have been what this fan wanted.

So who do you think the fans want this year???

This fan wants Secondary help. Landry ideally but Nelson, Revis, Hall would all do nicely.
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Old 04-24-2007   #4
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Why stop there?

Why don't we just have the fans be the head coach? Why don't we just have the fans be the general manager? Why don't we just have the fans call all the plays?

What do you propose? That we take a message board poll?

What a stoopid thread.
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Old 04-24-2007   #5
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Originally Posted by gtexan02 View Post
I keep reading about how the FO knows best, and that if something that the fans really want looks like it could happen, and the FO passes it up, it won't matter.

Honestly, I don't think thats a legitimate statement anymore.

The Texans fan base is ready for a turn around.

Last year we had a new coaching staff.
This year we have a new franchise QB.

Those are about the 2 biggest things you can change on a football team.

If we don't win this year, I think a lot of fans are going to get frustrated because there won't be wholesale changes available during next years offseason.

As such, dont you think its time to reward the fans by making an exciting pick?

here are my reasons:

#1) One of our biggest needs on paper is a disrupting DT or a pass rushing end. If we pick ANY DL, a lot of the fanbase is going to be very, very upset. We've spent 3 first round choices in a row on DL, and so far none of them have produced at the level we hoped. To make matters worse, TJ was supposed to be a disrupting DT and Williams was drafted to be a pass rushing DE (despite what many people are saying, he was billed to us as a pass rusher. He was a sack leader in college, too)

The point Im trying to make here is that great DL are very hard to find. And often they appear in other rounds. And many great college 1st round DL fail in the NFL. As such, despite how much we need DL, lets take a year off. Please.

#2) The fanbase is almost always right.
Last year we wanted Reggie Bush or Vince Young. Others wanted to trade down. Others wanted D'Brick. It wasn't until Mario was mentioned as a probable pick that some people jumped onto his bandwagon. And guess what? Reggie, Vince, many other 1sts and to a lesser extent even D'Brick had successful year.

The year before we wanted DJ. The year before that Sean Taylor. All those guys have succeeded. I've yet to see the fanbase go crazy over someone that truly busts.



Anyway, I think if I was FO, I'd go ahead and pay a little attention to the fans. You want AD? You got him if he falls.
You want LaRon? You got him if he falls.

There are worse things a franchise can do than taking a sure thing the fanbase is clamoring for with your 1st pick. (Such as taking another DL)
So you want the mob to rule versus calm collective people who actually watch game film? You do realize there are a lot of fans who get caught up in the hype that is YESPN (Yankkee Entertainment Sports Propaganda Network). We are in Texas and that the huge fan base of Tsip U would only want those players from that school? Now I am not begrudging everyone who likes or went to that school only those that are so over the top it is very nauseating.

One thing is you mentioned that D'Brick had a good year? I can not find the stat on him and the sacks he gave up but I think if I remember correctly he gave up more than all of our LT combined. (why in the world is it so hard to find info on the web .... I get so much crap that is unrelated it is stupid)


Bringing up what happened in the past does not help the current regim any only to keep things from moving forward. But then again you are already saying Mario is a bust and putting VY on a pedestal, they did that with Vick and still do, and what has he done the last couple years?

You can not let the inmates run the Assylum.
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Old 04-24-2007   #6
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When you let fans pick, you are showing everyone that you have lost control of what to do to your football team and care more about what fans think. To put it simply, letting the fans decide is allowing complete anarchy to reign as GM.
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Old 04-24-2007   #7
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I can not find the stat on him and the sacks he gave up but I think if I remember correctly he gave up more than all of our LT combined. (why in the world is it so hard to find info on the web .... I get so much crap that is unrelated it is stupid)
Stats, Inc.

Ferguson--10 sacks allowed, 1 false start, 1 hold
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Old 04-24-2007   #8
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When you let fans pick, you are showing everyone that you have lost control of what to do to your football team and care more about what fans think. To put it simply, letting the fans decide is allowing complete anarchy to reign as GM.
Actually, I disagree with this to a certain extent. I think when you have a high enough pick that it is fairly easy to know who will be available, say top 5, letting fans who care enough to drive to a certain spot (in downtown Houston) and vote on it would be a good idea. Of course, a last minute trade could always throw that all out of whack, but, for instance, that would've landed us Vince Young last year. Nothing against MW, but we screwed up, and it's obvious. I also think that the fans are much more knowledgeable in general than they or the (supposedly) experts give them credit for. The experts? . . . . are they really? Most of the experts had us taking RB, and our hometown experts gave Carr an extension, passed on VY and took MW with the first pick in the draft. Need I talk about CC, Capers, and past picks? I don't think so. I know they were the worst, but a lot of highly paid "experts" are not experts at all. Seems to me that the more heads you have the better, as long as they care enough to drive somewhere to vote for it, and aren't the type who don't give a crap and just happened to see RB on ESPN 2 minutes before they jumped on the Internet to vote from their home in Fargo, North Dakota. It could also just be only for season ticket holders. I'm not one, but I'd be OK with that.
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Old 04-25-2007   #9
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Actually, I disagree with this to a certain extent. I think when you have a high enough pick that it is fairly easy to know who will be available, say top 5, letting fans who care enough to drive to a certain spot (in downtown Houston) and vote on it would be a good idea. Of course, a last minute trade could always throw that all out of whack, but, for instance, that would've landed us Vince Young last year. Nothing against MW, but we screwed up, and it's obvious. I also think that the fans are much more knowledgeable in general than they or the (supposedly) experts give them credit for. The experts? . . . . are they really? Most of the experts had us taking RB, and our hometown experts gave Carr an extension, passed on VY and took MW with the first pick in the draft. Need I talk about CC, Capers, and past picks? I don't think so. I know they were the worst, but a lot of highly paid "experts" are not experts at all. Seems to me that the more heads you have the better, as long as they care enough to drive somewhere to vote for it, and aren't the type who don't give a crap and just happened to see RB on ESPN 2 minutes before they jumped on the Internet to vote from their home in Fargo, North Dakota. It could also just be only for season ticket holders. I'm not one, but I'd be OK with that.
Ok, can someone please explain to me why Mario Williams was such a mistake that it was "obvious". What exactly did Vince Young actually do that makes you think yeah he was obviously better? His 13 ints to 12 tds? his 51.5% completion%? Maybe his 146.6 yards per game thrown? His 36.8 yards rushed per game? Please, someone tell me why this guy is definitly someone we should have taken over Mario!

(I am not passing judgment on either player, I am simply trying to understand why someone with numbers like Young is thought of the way he was)?
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Old 04-25-2007   #10
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Ok, can someone please explain to me why Mario Williams was such a mistake that it was "obvious". What exactly did Vince Young actually do that makes you think yeah he was obviously better? His 13 ints to 12 tds? his 51.5% completion%? Maybe his 146.6 yards per game thrown? His 36.8 yards rushed per game? Please, someone tell me why this guy is definitly someone we should have taken over Mario!

(I am not passing judgment on either player, I am simply trying to understand why someone with numbers like Young is thought of the way he was)?
Don't start this again. VY is God, just accept it.
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Old 04-25-2007   #11
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Ok, can someone please explain to me why Mario Williams was such a mistake that it was "obvious". What exactly did Vince Young actually do that makes you think yeah he was obviously better? His 13 ints to 12 tds? his 51.5% completion%? Maybe his 146.6 yards per game thrown? His 36.8 yards rushed per game? Please, someone tell me why this guy is definitly someone we should have taken over Mario!

(I am not passing judgment on either player, I am simply trying to understand why someone with numbers like Young is thought of the way he was)?
I don't have anything against MW. I just think it's pretty rediculous to pass on VY, Matt Leinart, and shoot even Jay Cutler for that matter, only to find out within the same season that your newly resigned QB is a bust. Up until just a few weeks before the draft, I thought Carr would make it alright, but I was wrong, and I never wanted to pay him that much anyway, even when I thought he'd make it. Mario will be a good player--shoot, probably a great player, but the decision to take him #1 when we needed a new QB is just stupid. I guess the high-priced contract they gave Carr is what really bugs me, because almost everybody knew that was a mistake, even most of the Carr fans.

I'm not hating on MW, but you don't pass on Young and Lienart, give your QB a huge new contract, and then cut him one year later, while trading picks for another QB (nothing against Schaub either). I'm sure that this team will be much better off with Schaub, but not what it could've been with one of those other 2 or 3 guys.

Will Mario be much improved this year? I'm sure he will, but will he be so dang good over the years that I don't wish we had Young or Leinart? I really doubt it. I will always root for this team and its players, but I admit it when I'm wrong (if I know it), and I admit it when my favorite team has screwed up as well. They screwed up. The owner has pretty much admitted already anyway.

In answer to your question, Young helped his team win like 8 out of the last 9 games, or something like that. I'm sure plenty of people can tell you all about his abilities and what he's done. I don't follow him like one of his fans at all, but I know the guy has serious talent, and so do the other 2 QBs we could've had. Most of the Houston fan base wanted Young, and they were right (with the possible exception of Leinart being a little better). My point is that the majority of Houston Texans fans (or largest group wanting one player anyway) would've made the right choice, or very very close to the right choice, while the "experts" went for a guy who belonged in the top 5, but not #1.

Sometimes, the "experts" think TOO MUCH.
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Old 04-25-2007   #12
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Sometimes, the "experts" think TOO MUCH.
Sometimes, the "fans" think TOO MUCH, when they try to overanalyze when a team's owner makes an obvious mistake.

Bob McNair was committed to David Carr. His loyalty got in the way. Take that out of the picture, and VY is a Houston Texan.

This had absolutely nothing to do with the "experts".
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Old 04-25-2007   #13
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Take that out of the picture, and VY is a Houston Texan.
You are still projecting what the fans want. Take Carr out of the picture last year and Brees and Bush might be Texans. Almost no one, including the Titans, viewed VY as a draft and start immediately guy and according to the reports after the draft no teams had him as the #1 guy on their draft board--probably should have been, but he wasn't.
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Old 04-25-2007   #14
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You are still projecting what the fans want. Take Carr out of the picture last year and Brees and Bush might be Texans. Almost no one, including the Titans, viewed VY as a draft and start immediately guy and according to the reports after the draft no teams had him as the #1 guy on their draft board--probably should have been, but he wasn't.
I don't agree. It was McNair's decision to keep Carr, and that effected everything else. Remove that loyalty to Carr, and McNair would have removed the blinders and saw the obvious marketing value of having VY in Houston, regardless of how the "experts" had him rated on their boards.

Only one man had the power to NOT take VY that day. IMO, this was a decision not left to the "experts".
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Old 04-25-2007   #15
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I don't agree. It was McNair's decision to keep Carr, and that effected everything else. Remove that loyalty to Carr, and McNair would have removed the blinders and saw the obvious marketing value of having VY in Houston, regardless of how the "experts" had him rated on their boards.

Only one man had the power to NOT take VY that day. IMO, this was a decision not left to the "experts".
Well there is no arguing with belief without evidence. I see no evidence for the proposition that McNair would have trumped his brand new coaching staff for marketing value especially where (a) the marketing advantage you are talking about is shared by the league and (b) Bush was regarded as just as big of a marketing tool. Basically the marketing advantage is just a restated way of saying what the fans want in any event.
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Old 04-25-2007   #16
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If you're a billionaire with maybe 20 years to live, I don't think you care about things like "value" or "experts." McNair built an important friendship with Carr and wasn't ready to throw him to the curb to make a small fortune on VY's jersey and ticket sales. If someone could convince him that we could succeed going another route while keeping Carr, and Kubiak did, he surely wouldn't argue with him. Billionaires usually hear what they want to and not what they need to.
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Old 04-25-2007   #17
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to make a small fortune on VY's jersey and ticket sales.
Tickets have been sold out either way. Jersey sales are revenue shared so it doesn't matter where VY or Bush play.
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Old 04-25-2007   #18
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Tickets have been sold out either way. Jersey sales are revenue shared so it doesn't matter where VY or Bush play.
That's fair. I was just reiterating that what others were saying was irrelevant. The point is that McNair didn't care about the value that VY brought to the team, he only cared about his loyalty to Carr.
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Old 04-25-2007   #19
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Originally Posted by CrunkTex View Post
That's fair. I was just reiterating that what others were saying was irrelevant. The point is that McNair didn't care about the value that VY brought to the team, he only cared about his loyalty to Carr.
or maybe we had Matt Leinart rated higher than Vince Young ; )
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Old 04-25-2007   #20
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I think what some people forget is prior to the memorable Texas run to its national championship; i remember hearing Vince was pretty much committed to returning. It wasn't until AFTER the national title game and the culmination of the Vince-mania that his stock rose and prior to that all i got to hear about was the "bush bowl" between us and the 49ers.

When Vince announced his intent to go pro we were already committed to Carr. We had hireda new coaching staff who was supposed tofix some of CArr's problems and i believe(for what it counts anyway) that working with Carr was just along with the coaching Gig. Everything just pointed to it not happening.

The rookie of the year award and people bashing us for the pick of Mario were also the ones talking about Vince's mechanics and how raw he was and good pick but probably should wait a year and see how he translates to the NFL. Enter the wonderful idea by the Titans FO to bring in Kerry Collins(as if his dismal raiders stint wasn't proof enough) to supplant Billy Volek, who probably wouldn't done fine as the starter and we wouldn't probably see Vince on the field til next year. His stats weren't pretty but overall the team somehow managed an 8-8 season. Including the Eli Manning throwaway game and a game that saw them score 3 non offensive TD's. THe OROY could've just as easily gone to Jones-Drew or Maroney IMO.

I don't think Williams was going to last past NO. Didn't they allow Philly to sign away one of their more premier rushers?

As for Bush nice season honestly. But he didn't have to do more then he did at USC with Deuce getting most of the tough yards and carrying the bulk of the load. Brees also managed that offense to perfection and aside from our game next year i look forward to seeing them in action. I'm jsut not sure he would've succeeded here with what we were probably going toask him to do overall in being the man. Maybe he develops into that later in his career i dunno jury still out on that.

Leinart had a nice year but falling to Arizona, in the long run, is going to only help his career. Aside from the OL which i believe Wisenhunt will help on. The offense is ideal for him. Strong receivers with sure hands, A running back who can do it all, and Pope Will emerge as a legit TE next year. Right guy in the right situation.

Honestly i don't see why people are locking it into as such a mistake unless they've bought into the ESPN hype. I think next year with a clean bill of health people will see why Mario was selected, but that's just me.
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