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Old 04-23-2007   #1
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Default Defensive Line Development

Here's an interesting article primarily about KC, but has a Texans connection as it relates to Bob Karmelowicz and his development of Williams.

It's an interesting read.

Lots of dirty laundry aired.
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Old 04-23-2007   #2
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“I’m not trying to throw anyone under the bus, but facts are facts,” Freeman said. “The same coach who had us had Mario Williams in Houston last year — and how did Williams do? Not very good, right?”

***********************************************
I hope he was one of the problems with Marios disappointing rookie year, because replacing him is one thing they can do and did do this year. I dunno,
but he may have been more relavant to coaching in the Knute Rockne era than today with the kind of players in the league now.
But I'm convinced that the musical-chairs charade Mario went thru last year was a real blunder for his development in his rookie NFL year. He needs to be put at strongside DE (or one single position, wherever), and left there the whole season. I dunno though, the strategy to bounce him around last year could have been more the DC or HCs idea than the position coach ?
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Old 04-23-2007   #3
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Travis Johnson should be joining those guys pretty soon. Did we really use a top 15 pick on that guy???


Steph, I know you're a big fan of Coach Karm, but there are several indications that he is not a very good NFL coach. Guys at this level probably have a hard time relating to someone screaming at them all the time.
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Old 04-23-2007   #4
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LOL at a guy playing Arena Ball trying to "not throw somebody under the bus."

The fact is that Freeman busted and he's blaming his position coach for it. What about all the D-Linemen that came in off the street last season and made a strong showing?

I think that the defense spent too much time on the field last season for us to make an accurate assessment of them. That goes for coaches too.
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Old 04-23-2007   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Article
“Most people were dying to go with someone else,” Karmelowicz said. “But Eddie was the highest-rated player left in the draft at all positions. Time was running out, so we just ended up taking him based on where he was rated on the board. Based on that, he was the only option. The board drafted Eddie Freeman.”
And here I thought NFL draft rooms were some kind of highly analytical and deep thinking strategy sessions. Maybe the Chiefs could us a dart board or some dice?

It'll be interesting to see how Mario develops this year, because I wasn't impressed with the musical chair approach to coaching our rookie star last season, either. It seemed counter-productive, and now we may have some insight as to why.
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Old 04-23-2007   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the wonger need food View Post
Travis Johnson should be joining those guys pretty soon. Did we really use a top 15 pick on that guy???
No. TJ was the 16th pick in the 2005 draft.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the wonger need food View Post
Steph, I know you're a big fan of Coach Karm, but there are several indications that he is not a very good NFL coach.
One indication is that Karmelowicz is no longer a NFL defensive line coach.

Here's the bio of the Texans new DL coach, Jethro Franklin.

Quote:
FRANKLIN’S COACHING LEDGER

2007: Defensive Line, Houston Texans

2006: Defensive Line, Tampa Bay Buccaneers

2005: Defensive Line, Southern California

2000-04: Defensive Line, Green Bay Packers

1999: Defensive Line, UCLA

1991-98: Defensive Line, Fresno State
Holy Vince Young! Was that Franklin's DL that #10 ran over, around, and through in the BCS championship game? Not a good sign.
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Old 04-23-2007   #7
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Finding quality linemen is harder than most of us probably think. Athletic, nimble 270-300ish pounders with the proper attitude and the right level of conditioning are hard to come by. I appreciate guys like Ray Childress more and more each year.
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Old 04-23-2007   #8
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I understand those players being upset and blaming the coaches. Karm's style may not have 'clicked' with some of those players, but at the same time: you just gotta get it done in this league or you're out. I think it says a lot that they aren't in the NFL anymore. I would have thought that at least 1 of the 31 other teams would have them at least on their team, if nothing more than depth....that says a lot right there.

This Jethro guy, is it just me or does it seem he's moved around quite a bit. I think one thing that hurts many applicants for jobs is when they see you've moved jobs quite a bit as in EVERY year. Oh, and I think Vince Young ran all over not only his DL but about 8 other DL's as well; a few in the pros...including us..in two different games. We need to stop that.

Whats up with this new guy Jethro? For those that know more- are y'all excited about him?
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Old 04-23-2007   #9
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Originally Posted by Ole Miss Texan View Post

This Jethro guy, is it just me or does it seem he's moved around quite a bit. I think one thing that hurts many applicants for jobs is when they see you've moved jobs quite a bit as in EVERY year. Oh, and I think Vince Young ran all over not only his DL but about 8 other DL's as well; a few in the pros...including us..in two different games. We need to stop that.

Whats up with this new guy Jethro? For those that know more- are y'all excited about him?
He looks like a guy coach Sherman liked and is another one of those Packer/Bronco connection type things. NFL Coaches move constantly, so that isn't a red flag of any sort.

Quote:
In helping the Packers' defense surrender only 237 points in 2001, the fifth-lowest total in the league, Franklin’s linemen contributed to a team-record 52 sacks, good for third in the NFL. The constant pressure up front led to the defense allowing just 10.3 yards per pass play, the second-lowest figure in the NFL and tops in the NFC, as well as allowing only 4.7 yards per play overall, the sixth-best mark in the league.Franklin’s work in 2000, his first year in Green Bay, was similarly successful. The Packers yielded a mere seven rushing touchdowns, second-lowest total in the NFL and the second-fewest yielded by the Packers since 1962. http://www.houstontexans.com/team/coach.asp?coach_id=18
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Old 04-23-2007   #10
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Originally Posted by Ole Miss Texan View Post
I understand those players being upset and blaming the coaches. Karm's style may not have 'clicked' with some of those players, but at the same time: you just gotta get it done in this league or you're out. I think it says a lot that they aren't in the NFL anymore. I would have thought that at least 1 of the 31 other teams would have them at least on their team, if nothing more than depth....that says a lot right there.

This Jethro guy, is it just me or does it seem he's moved around quite a bit. I think one thing that hurts many applicants for jobs is when they see you've moved jobs quite a bit as in EVERY year. Oh, and I think Vince Young ran all over not only his DL but about 8 other DL's as well; a few in the pros...including us..in two different games. We need to stop that.

Whats up with this new guy Jethro? For those that know more- are y'all excited about him?
Sorry for the off topic comment, but I like that Avatar Ole Miss. Classy. I like seeing that stuff out of other schools' alumni.
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Old 04-23-2007   #11
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Originally Posted by nunusguy View Post
But I'm convinced that the musical-chairs charade Mario went thru last year was a real blunder for his development in his rookie NFL year. He needs to be put at strongside DE (or one single position, wherever), and left there the whole season. I dunno though, the strategy to bounce him around last year could have been more the DC or HCs idea than the position coach ?
I think this and the foot injury had more to do with the subpar season versus anything in the coaching.

Just moving a rookie around from position to position just does not seem good for there develoment long term, second year fine but the rookie year? The game is a lot faster and longer than in college.
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Old 04-23-2007   #12
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I liked Karm as a personality--he's a funny, curse-like-a-sailor, prototypical "old school" coach--but I really have no idea how effective he is/was as a d-line coach in terms of teaching technique. I watched him lead a lot of position drills but I don't know enough "football" to critique him usefully.
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Old 04-23-2007   #13
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Originally Posted by jerek View Post
I liked Karm as a personality--he's a funny, curse-like-a-sailor, prototypical "old school" coach--but I really have no idea how effective he is/was as a d-line coach in terms of teaching technique. I watched him lead a lot of position drills but I don't know enough "football" to critique him usefully.
That's where I am on things. He's had players not care for him, but then some of his old players love him.

Yeah, Karm is still with the team but not as the Dline coach. You don't want to read too much into things, but it is worth noting that he is getting older and has had some health problems.
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Old 04-23-2007   #14
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Holy Vince Young! Was that Franklin's DL that #10 ran over, around, and through in the BCS championship game? Not a good sign.
He's got experience with Vince now, good thing we got him

On the original article, wow... Gall-bladders are getting emptied!

Kinda tough to place the responsibility in the case of KC, I'm sure that both players and coaches hold equal responsibility. What is more important that playing the blame-game is to identify the problem (or problems) and correct them.
Re-assigning Karm this off-season might be an indicator that part of the problem were with him, and that his abilities are better used at some other position. Identify peoples forces and weaknesses, and place them in positions where they are utilized to the best of their abilities.

It's pretty much like in the army, just because you are an excellent tactician does not make you good at strategy
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Old 04-23-2007   #15
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Quote:
“I went to New England for preseason camp (in 2006). Their linemen aren’t any more talented than the ones the Chiefs drafted. But they work with those guys there. Ty Warren, Jarvis Green … they work with them and make them better.”

Karmelowicz didn’t seem bothered that Freeman said he wasn’t “developed.”

“That’s like me saying that I could learn to slam dunk if someone would just work with me,” Karmelowicz said.
“We both know it’s not going to happen. Eddie was one tough cookie, and he tried real hard. But there’s a reason he’s not playing anymore.”
This quote kinda stuck in my craw.

So what Karm is say is "you cant teach physical skills". So then you go out and get the most physical guy out there and he will perform no matter what the coaching?? So do you even need a coach?? Not every player is going to have every skill required for a particular position. Defenses have to work together to offset each other's physical limitation and exploit physical strengths.

The other thing that bothered me was the fact that Freeman basically said Karm didn't do his job. Assuming it was Karm's job to "develop" Freeman. Karm didn't disagree.

Sounds like a tired, old man, who is ready for the farm to me.
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Old 04-23-2007   #16
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Hagar: I don't think he's saying that coaching means nothing. I think it means that you can try as hard as you want, and you can be as well-coached as possible, and if you don't have the physical talent, you still can't make it.

That doesn't suggest that an uncoached physical specimen will be successful. I think he means you need both.

That said, to have that many guys flake out, under the same coaching staff is a little (or more than a little) suspicious.
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Old 04-23-2007   #17
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Really interesting read.

Some players are amazing in college and it doesnt translate immediately in the NFL. And this may be a good indication as to why--different styles.

It makes me think ATL will definitely target Amobi Okoye and Bush. Both are Pettrino guys, so he knows exactly what he's getting
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Old 04-23-2007   #18
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Really interesting read.

Some players are amazing in college and it doesnt translate immediately in the NFL. And this may be a good indication as to why--different styles.

It makes me think ATL will definitely target Amobi Okoye and Bush. Both are Pettrino guys, so he knows exactly what he's getting
I too think atl will target okoye in the 1st if landry is gone and then bush inthe 3rd round.

gtexan i thought in your sig, you were going to say don't forget april 20th was somethin else....lol
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Old 04-24-2007   #19
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I would think players like Russell Maryland and Cortez Kennedy have more credibility.

This article explains a couple of things about coach K's style.

http://www.uwrf.edu/chiefs05/feature...es=8-06a05.htm
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Old 04-24-2007   #20
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It's unlikely that one can last 30 years at a high level by being not very good.
I've read high praises from ESPN, ProFootball Weekly, Scouts Inc., etc.

Here's his bio from a few years back:

Karmelowicz, 49, returns for his third season as Kansas City's defensive line coach. A former collegiate nose tackle, he owns 25 years of coaching experience, the past seven of which have been spent in the NFL ranks. Prior to joining the Chiefs in ‘98, he spent three years (‘94-96) with the Washington Redskins and two years with the Cincinnati Bengals (‘92-93).

Thanks in large part to Karmelowicz's defensive line, the Chiefs produced 40 sacks in ‘98, an average of one every 13 pass plays, a figure which ranked fourth in the AFC. That group was paced by "Falcon" Derrick Thomas who produced 12.0 sacks to rank third in the conference.

In his first season with Kansas City in ‘97, the Chiefs revamped defensive front was a key element of NFL's stingiest scoring defense. The club racked up 54 sacks, the second-highest total in franchise history, a figure which also tied for third-best mark in the league. The club improved in stuffing the run as well, yielding just 101.3 yards per game to rank fourth in the AFC and seventh in the league.

In three seasons with Washington, he worked with the likes of tackle Sean Gilbert and defensive end Rich Owens, who led the Redskins with 11 sacks in ‘96, just his second pro campaign. During his three years (‘89-91) coaching the defensive line at the University of Miami (Fla.), he helped produce a pair of top-three overall draft picks in Russell Maryland (1st overall in ‘91) and Cortez Kennedy (3rd overall in ‘90). His defensive line was also a key link in a Hurricanes squad which led the nation in total defense in ‘89 and topped the country in scoring defense in ‘91.

The New Britain, Connecticut, product began his career in the professional ranks with the Cincinnati Bengals (‘92-93) after spending 16 seasons on the collegiate level. Prior to his three years at Miami, Karmelowicz enjoyed stints at Massachusetts (‘80), Texas-El Paso (‘81), Illinois (‘82-86) and Washington State (‘87-88). A three-year starter and a consensus Little All-American nose tackle at the University of Bridgeport, Karmelowicz began his coaching career under Frank Kush at Arizona State in ‘75 and went on to spend five seasons (‘75-79) with the Sun Devils.
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