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Old 10-18-2004   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug
Wasn't that Gaffney or was there another play I wasn't aware of? Seriously
Your right... It was another play Armstrong made I liked too... but the one I was speaking of was Gaffney... dang good play.
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Old 10-18-2004   #22
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Originally Posted by done88
What if the Texans dropped either Peek or Babin into Defensive end and the other stayed at line backer.
They aren't stout enough in a base 3-4.

I expected them to do this ... on nickle. With 5 DBs, they put the OLBs as rush ends, with Walker and Smith as DTs (generally). That leaves Wong and Foreman as the only LBs. I thought they might have Wong play Foreman's spot and have Peek play right rush end. I haven't noticed it though, this year.

One thing the Texans like to do, I believe, is to switch from the 3-4 to 4-3, but to maximize the confusion on the offense, they don't change personal. They have Babin put his hand down and play LDE, with Walker and Payne as DTs and Smith as RDE. This leaves Wong as ROLB, Sharper as LOLB ans Foreman in the middle. Having Babin, Walker and Sharper coming off the one side puts a lot of pressure on the protection.

I think sliding from a 3-4 to a 4-3 does add confusion to the O-line, but they can't use it as an opportunity to sub in Peek.
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Old 10-18-2004   #23
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insanely biased? look at the stats, babin was given credit for one tackle. and in terms of speed, babin is 4.6 peek is 4.5. in terms of size peek is 250, the same as wong, and babin is 259. Im pretty sure these stats show there is no real difference in body types and their strengths are comparable when looking at rookie combine numbers. so i think that peek has stuff other than speed rushes, including a bull rush with some spins. Convenient that you forget his production last year, where he had good pass rush. So my bias may be to peek but dont kid yourself about yours to babin. so you may want to re-play your film back and watch babins lack of pursuit when the ball isnt near him, and also count how many times he is either pancaked, falls down by being pushed, or falls down on his own. he may become very good in the future but dont kid yourself about his great play right now, one tackle is not great play. he did rush steve on the one pass, that he should have had a sack on if he didnt fall, but in terms of him closing the pocket a lot better than peek, thats untrue
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Old 10-18-2004   #24
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Babin's impressed me consistently thus far this season with his pursuit, sideline to sideline. And as for him falling down on what would have been a sack, it's because one of the other pursuing Texans ran into him, knocking him down. And he still got hold of McNair's foot, disrupting the pass.
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Old 10-18-2004   #25
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Hey georgewashington this is a quote from you from another thread about Babin...
Quote:
I am glad someone else has noticed these things. The spin move is so ineffective.
But on this post you write
Quote:
so i think that peek has stuff other than speed rushes, including a bull rush with some spins.
So you are saying Peek is the only player in the NFL who can successfully pull off a spin move? And by the way I am not trying to be a smart *****, I am just trying to understand what you mean exactly.
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Old 10-18-2004   #26
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no my point is that he has the foot work ability to use the spin without falling, babin tries the spin almost every play and it has produced nothing when he uses it. He is successful with the bull rush, where he has collapsed the pocket, but he doesnt get off of the block when its time to make tackles. And when you watch babin do spins, he gets pushed over quite often. Someone else pointed out that he does spin moves way too much and they dont work. spin moves are effective when you work up the field and spin back inside, or you have to go straight inside and spin up. Babin goes in the middle and either has spun up too high or he spins right into the guard. but more than that its the lack of getting off of blocks, such as the wideout yesterday where he couldnt make a tackle coming in from outside on the left. there just seems to be a lack of hand and footwork. that is not something that is learned by playing time. taht is something developed in college that he should have. and also, speed is different than quickness, babin may have a 4.6, but that doesnt mean he is quick enough to react to things, both with his feet and hands.
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Old 10-18-2004   #27
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and also, i am not saying peek is the only one who can pull of a spin move, im not saying he is a perfect player. i am saying that based on play so far babin has not shown me any reason to believe that he should have been a first rounder, nor that he should be seen as playing so great this season.
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Old 10-18-2004   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgewashington
that is not something that is learned by playing time. taht is something developed in college that he should have
wow, another blatantly wrong statement. so what exactly CAN babin improve on through experiance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgewashington
and also, i am not saying peek is the only one who can pull of a spin move, im not saying he is a perfect player. i am saying that based on play so far babin has not shown me any reason to believe that he should have been a first rounder, nor that he should be seen as playing so great this season.
i don't think you understand, jason babin has only played 6 games as an OLB, played solid for a rook and you take all that for granted because he's not lawernce taylor. but the icing on the cake is you think a very raw talent (in peek) who coming is coming along at a much slower rate in 2 years than babin in 6 games, should start ahead of him. if i come across as babin biased it's only because im trying to emphasize what i feel is obvious, babin is a better everydown OLB than peek.
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Old 10-18-2004   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgewashington
He is successful with the bull rush, where he has collapsed the pocket, but he doesnt get off of the block when its time to make tackles. And when you watch babin do spins, he gets pushed over quite often.
OK George, I'm duly impressed with your knowledge of the nuances of pass
rushing techniques. So, what's your assessment of Babin at this point in time:
(A) has the potential to be a standout OLB in our system and is worth the #1
pick we invested in him - just a huge transition from W.Michigan and will take
some time (1 season, 2 seasons, or > 2 seasons) to develope
(B) Will play and start for us but is average and we overpaid for him
(C) Is a dud - not even worth a second day pick
(D) Too soon to determine what kind of contribution, if any, he will make for us
(E) Something else
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Old 10-18-2004   #30
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nunusguy i would say that babin will play and start for us but its way too early to tell what he will do. the problem is that too many times teams gamble on players for that one small chance he will be amazing. Ryan Leaf for the chargers, the bengals years ago picked akili smith over culpepper and mcnabb, we will see what happens with the texans picking bennie. my point is that he has done nothing spectacular. and my point all along is that im tired of hearing him being touted as the second coming when he really hasnt done anything special. my other point is that by people saying peek "is coming along at a MUCH slower rate" is very inaccurate. how many plays did he screw up in this weekend? none, so how is that bad play. he is a good player that is going to be great whether it is with the texans or not, cuz if he doesnt get used by next year, he is a free agent that will be wanted by someone else. believe it or not many people projected him going a lot earlier than he did, some even had teams picking him late first round, early second. his motor is also high speed and he is pure intensity.
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Old 10-18-2004   #31
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i would also like to point out that many have commented on babins weakness in pass coverage. unfortunately that is just as meaningful to a linebacker as run stopping. i think peek is better in coverage, so maybe that brings the playing field of the two closer together.
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Old 10-18-2004   #32
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Another Suprise TODAY (MONDAY) is the Astros won tonight 3-0,,, homer in bottom of the ninth by Kent !!! Killer Bees BABY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-19-2004   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgewashington
nunusguy i would say that babin will play and start for us but its way too early to tell what he will do. the problem is that too many times teams gamble on players for that one small chance he will be amazing. Ryan Leaf for the chargers, the bengals years ago picked akili smith over culpepper and mcnabb, we will see what happens with the texans picking bennie. my point is that he has done nothing spectacular. and my point all along is that im tired of hearing him being touted as the second coming when he really hasnt done anything special.
I like your analysis and agree with much of it. Babin has made some good plays, but he has also screwed up miserably at time. But true, he really has done nothing spectacular which implies(maybe) that he doesn't have the potential that, say a Dunta Robinson has, who is obviously an outstanding athelete & hard-hitting tackler who has been spectacular at times. I dunno, maybe that's the difference between a high first round pick and low first round pick ?
Almost as interesting to me is the organizations lack of support for Peek -
if they thought he had the kind of potential you do (and they had all of last year to observe and work with him), they would never have gone after Babin in the draft like they did.
One thing I take exception with you on - Bennie. His injury(s) were jsut unfortunate events, and since he has no history of this from college, no one can be blamed. So it's really impossible to judge the Texans' wisdom of that choice.
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Old 10-19-2004   #34
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I agree that bennie was not a bad pick, im just saying that sometimes picks dont come out as well as they were expected. and i agree about the lack of support for peek. he was praised all training camp this year about how much he improved over the offseason and how much better he was looking. there was even talk about him pushing babin for the starting spot. its funny how all of that talk died and how they could go from such high regards for him to not mentioning him. if they dont start using him soon he is going to start packing his bags for free agency, because many teams were interested in getting him last year.
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Old 10-19-2004   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgewashington
there was even talk about him pushing babin for the starting spot. its funny how all of that talk died and how they could go from such high regards for him to not mentioning him. if they dont start using him soon he is going to start packing his bags for free agency, because many teams were interested in getting him last year.
He was always on the weak side. Babin plays the strong side. They play different positions.

Also, it takes the third year for most 3-4 OLB's to fully develop from the draft because they are all College ends converting to playing in space. Most of the great Steeler OLB's didn't start getting starting jobs till their second seasons. Most agree that OLB conversions are usually fully developed and have enough understanding to optimize their potential by their third season. Babin is in year one. Peek in year two. Have some patience.
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Old 10-19-2004   #36
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play different positions? have you watched who peek has come in to play for, babin. he has only come in for wong once and that was this week when he got hurt. he is on the depth chart as playing behind wong, but he has also been the only sub for babin.
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Old 10-19-2004   #37
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If you want to get Peek on the field for edge speed and situational rushing the best OLB combo is Peek - Wong right now, that is why he comes in for Babin then. Speed off the edge is Peek's game. Babin plays the strong side because he can stop the run as well as the pass. You won't catch Peek replacing Babin during many running downs.
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Old 10-19-2004   #38
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i believe he was in there on a few 1st and second downs, he also replaced babin in KC. I think he knows how to play the position. He is the backup to both sides.
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Old 10-22-2004   #39
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Not too beat a dead horse, but i found it interesting in looking at the stats that Babin only has 4 assists in tackles. To me that shows a lack of pursuit. Maybe im wrong but when you see the other three linebackers with assists in the teens, that shows they are pursuing and making group tackles.
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Old 10-22-2004   #40
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Gaffney used to have tons of trolls when he was a rookie. We actually had posts from people wanting him CUT!! Not every rookie can come in and lead their team. It takes time and patience.
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