Ugly QB Stats (Continued from another thread)

[The Pencil Neck]

Originally Posted by Arky

This is interesting. Ugly QB stats:
<snip>
(my apologies to the thread starter for getting off topic)

I found this very interesting so I split it out into it's own thread.

These numbers are for Carr for his first 5 years, Cunningham for 86-90, Culpepper for 00-04, and Plummer for 97-01.

I expanded on Arky's numbers a little bit:

Name - Games - Sacks - Fumbles - Fumbles lost - Ints - Yards - YPA - TDs - Rushing - Rushing TDs

Carr.......... - 76 - 249 - 66 - 21 - 65 - 13391 - 6.5 - 059 - 1233 - 8
Cunningham - 75 - 277 - 57 - ?? - 63 - 14851 - 6.8 - 106 - 3232 - 23
Culpepper.. - 73 - 197 - 72 - 31 - 74 - 18604 - 7.8 - 129 - 2317 - 28
Plummer.... - 68 - 179 - 40 - 18 - 94 - 14650 - 6.6 - 072 - 900 - 8


One of my knocks against Carr is that he just doesn't get the TD's. I think we see that here.

When you look at Cunningham and Culpepper, they're putting points on the board during these periods of their careers.

I've heard that Culpepper's problem has been that, although he's a big guy, he's got small hands and he fumbles a lot. You can see that in the numbers. But 28 rushing TD's and 129 passing TD's? Jeez.

Cunningham had a helluva lot of sacks but he was back there scrambling around trying to make things happen and... he frequently did. His numbers are remarkably similar to Carr's except for the rushing TD's and rushing yardage.

Plummer during this period took the Cardinals to their first post-season victory since the 40's. The knock on him was that he just threw WAY too many interceptions. It's amazing anyone gave him a shot after this. He had 1 more year in Arizona before going to the Broncos and a lot of people were surprised that the Broncos were willing to take him. He had 3 fairly good years in Denver under Kubiak.

If I were going to draw any conclusion from this it would just be that Carr has played worse than Cunningham and Culpepper but not worse than Plummer (during the period we're talking about.) If Kubiak was able to salvage something with Plummer who was really horrible coming to the Broncos, then I will trust him to make the right decision with Carr.

[TwinSisters]

Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck

If I were going to draw any conclusion from this it would just be that Carr has played worse than Cunningham and Culpepper but not worse than Plummer (during the period we're talking about.) If Kubiak was able to salvage something with Plummer who was really horrible coming to the Broncos, then I will trust him to make the right decision with Carr.

On Kubiak/Plummer:

How much of his success is actually Kubiak and not other factors like Calhoun?
Or a myriad of other things on the Denver team that is not here in Houston... like a solid running game.

[threetoedpete]

...like a veteran intact, capable o-line. Weapons at TE...

[TwinSisters]

there is also the 300 Yard game stat.

Carr has 4 in 5 seasons.

Plummer has 4 in two seasons... with a 465 game that he lit up the Cowboys with.

Cunnigham has 4 in one season!

Culpepper has 4 or more in two seperate seasons.
---

The point here is that if you are losing you expect to see more 300+ games. Yet Carr has the fewest while on the weakest team of the 4 QBs.

[Wharton]

This is nothing new. David's lack of touchdowns has been shown on this message board over and over again.

What I can't understand is why are considering Jake Plummer? He's just an earlier version of David. Its stupid.

[Tulip]

Originally Posted by Wharton

This is nothing new. David's lack of touchdowns has been shown on this message board over and over again.

What I can't understand is why are considering Jake Plummer? He's just an earlier version of David. Its stupid.

I wasn't that enthralled with the idea around mid-season when I realized the inevitability of it - but I've warmed to the idea over the past couple of months.

For those who love stats (and I know there's plenty on this board who do) - here's some of what McClain summarized in his Sunday notebook about Plummer under Kubiak:

Regular season record 2003-2005: 32-11
Regular season record 2006: 7-4

TD/INT 2003-2005: 60-34

Passer ratings:
2003 - 91.2
2004 - 84.5
2005 - 90.0

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...t/4543685.html

[The Pencil Neck]

Originally Posted by Wharton

This is nothing new. David's lack of touchdowns has been shown on this message board over and over again.

What I can't understand is why are considering Jake Plummer? He's just an earlier version of David. Its stupid.

Well, you have to remember that the stats we were looking at here for Plummer were for his 1st 5 years in the league. If you look at his last 5 years in the league, it's a different story: 14603 yards, 6.9 ypa, 89 TD's (not including 9 rushing TD's.), 67 ints. I don't have his sack/fumble stats handy.

His performance in Denver under Kubiak was much better than either his performance in Arizona or his performance in Denver without Kubiak or Carr's performance.

Personally, I think with Plummer we'd probably win 1 or 2 more games than with Carr, I think we'd score more, but he'd also give away more interceptions. I think our passing game would be more productive overall. But I don't think that Plummer is an answer in any way, shape, or form.

The questions that our FO have to answer are:

1. Do they think that there is a franchise type QB out there that's a backup, draft choice, or free agent?
2. Do they think they can get that guy?
3. If there aren't any franchise guys out there, do they think we can get one next year?

We very well might not be able to answer our QB questions for a few years. We might have to put up with poor performance from the QB position for awhile and just try to build a great defense and hope for the best.

Which is sad.

[TwinSisters]

It needs to be added that Plummer was injured and playing injured in two of his seasons at Arizona.

( I am going off of memory though, so I could be wrong )

[run-david-run]

Originally Posted by Tulip

I wasn't that enthralled with the idea around mid-season when I realized the inevitability of it - but I've warmed to the idea over the past couple of months.

For those who love stats (and I know there's plenty on this board who do) - here's some of what McClain summarized in his Sunday notebook about Plummer under Kubiak:

Regular season record 2003-2005: 32-11
Regular season record 2006: 7-4

TD/INT 2003-2005: 60-34

Passer ratings:
2003 - 91.2
2004 - 84.5
2005 - 90.0

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...t/4543685.html

Please stop with the "QB record" bull. This is a team game, I dont care if ESPN counts QB's wins. Unless the entire defense, special teams and 10 out of 11 starters on offense arnt involved, the team wins and losses, QB's are a marginal part of the grand scheme.

[gg no re]

They're marginal, but their ability to play when needed is critical. (hi Rex)

[HoustonFrog]

Originally Posted by run-david-run

Please stop with the "QB record" bull. This is a team game, I dont care if ESPN counts QB's wins. Unless the entire defense, special teams and 10 out of 11 starters on offense arnt involved, the team wins and losses, QB's are a marginal part of the grand scheme.

You have to be kidding. QB may be one of the most, if not the most important position in sports. That is what people fail to realize here. They can gloss it all they want but they touch the ball every play on offense and everything from the cadence, to studying film, to knowing the playbook, to reading defenses, etc comes into play. That is just a plain false statement. By following your statement then every joe with an arm in college should be able to be mediocre and play in this league.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck

We very well might not be able to answer our QB questions for a few years. We might have to put up with poor performance from the QB position for awhile and just try to build a great defense and hope for the best.

Which is sad.

Nice work, The Pencil Neck. Can I call you TPN?

This is really the ugly and the good. Man, those Culpepper offensive numbers are really nice. I believe those stats were greatly aided from the days of bombs-away-to-Chris-Carter-and-Randy Moss.... What a great passing game that was...

For the Texans, I would just like to see upgrades and stability in the O-line for a change. None of our O-linemen are ever going to be confused with pro-bowlers. They don't have to be pro-bowlers, just good and solid. Quality either from the draft and/or FA (Spencer and Winston, IMO, are two of the best steps taken in this direction). I don't think any QB is going to be able to do his job until this happens first....

[Ole Miss Texan]

I'm kinda thinking our QB situation won't be 'finished' for a few years too. I hope we build our defense to be killer. Just look at what the raiders are doing...we can all give them a hard time but they have one of the best defenses in the league. It's built. Now if they just add a QB worth something and a little oline help they will be very hard to beat.

That's how i see us in a few years. still needing to address the QB and OLIne. but having a dangerous defense

[NATHANHALE]

"Please stop with the "QB record" bull. This is a team game, I dont care if ESPN counts QB's wins. Unless the entire defense, special teams and 10 out of 11 starters on offense arnt involved, the team wins and losses, QB's are a marginal part of the grand scheme."

I might believe this if Carr were able to produce with the team mates around him, but this has not been the case for 5 yrs. Carr, exclusively, requires 'special' attention not afforded other players in order-according to his homers-to function at an acceptable level. Carr needs all-pros at every position, including OL that do not give up sacks and allow him all the time he needs to throw/WR that not only get open but get 'major' separation-do not drop the ball-get lots of yac/TE's that do the same as WR plus block/RB's that get lots of yds-block-catch all balls thrown to them/a defense that leads the league in fewest points allowed,etc.

Yea, it's a team game alright, as long as Carr gets all the 'sugar' handed out and-rules that apply to all the other players (like 'best' player plays) don't apply to him...
__________________

[QB75]

Originally Posted by NATHANHALE

"Please stop with the "QB record" bull. This is a team game, I dont care if ESPN counts QB's wins. Unless the entire defense, special teams and 10 out of 11 starters on offense arnt involved, the team wins and losses, QB's are a marginal part of the grand scheme."

I might believe this if Carr were able to produce with the team mates around him, but this has not been the case for 5 yrs. Carr, exclusively, requires 'special' attention not afforded other players in order-according to his homers-to function at an acceptable level. Carr needs all-pros at every position, including OL that do not give up sacks and allow him all the time he needs to throw/WR that not only get open but get 'major' separation-do not drop the ball-get lots of yac/TE's that do the same as WR plus block/RB's that get lots of yds-block-catch all balls thrown to them/a defense that leads the league in fewest points allowed,etc.

Yea, it's a team game alright, as long as Carr gets all the 'sugar' handed out and-rules that apply to all the other players (like 'best' player plays) don't apply to him...
__________________

You are right. Carr alone should have been able to overcome all of the normal hurdles of an expansion franchise and had the team in the Super Bowl a couple of years ago. The Texans are obviously in their current state completely because of him.

[Hulk75]

Originally Posted by TwinSisters

there is also the 300 Yard game stat.

Carr has 4 in 5 seasons.

Plummer has 4 in two seasons... with a 465 game that he lit up the Cowboys with.

Cunnigham has 4 in one season!

Culpepper has 4 or more in two seperate seasons.
---

The point here is that if you are losing you expect to see more 300+ games. Yet Carr has the fewest while on the weakest team of the 4 QBs.

Hit the nail RIGHT on the head.............that has been my arguement for a long time now.

[HoustonFrog]

Originally Posted by Hulk75

Hit the nail RIGHT on the head.............that has been my arguement for a long time now.

What?That he can't master the QB position and do what he is supposed to do despite himself?Right. I guess learning QB 101 might have helped him get a few more 300 yard games.

[HoustonFrog]

Originally Posted by QB75

You are right. Carr alone should have been able to overcome all of the normal hurdles of an expansion franchise and had the team in the Super Bowl a couple of years ago. The Texans are obviously in their current state completely because of him.

No, he should of just been able to learn the basics of the position and do his part.

[TwinSisters]

Originally Posted by Arky

This is really the ugly and the good. Man, those Culpepper offensive numbers are really nice. I believe those stats were greatly aided from the days of bombs-away-to-Chris-Carter-and-Randy Moss.... What a great passing game that was...

His biggest season came right after Carter hung it up.. that 4700 39 TD 400+ rushing season.

[Tulip]

Originally Posted by run-david-run

QB's are a marginal part of the grand scheme.

This is a theory that only people trying to defend QBs with sub-25% win percentages can buy.

With most teams, the QB position is absolutely vital, not marginal. Otherwise there would not be such a huge premium on the position, from the draft to free agency.

Very few teams can have the luxury of being able to carry a "marginal" game manager quarterback. And those teams have to spend money on other areas to make them dominant. That money cannot be tied up in the QB. David counts $7.75 million against our cap - which means that his performance is absolutely vital to the success/failure of the Texans.