Tacks Terrific 12 v. Texan Terrific 12 - Houston Texans Message Board & Forum

Mistril48 · 10-14-2004

Old Posting (new posting below)

In a salary cap regime like the NFL, the value of a player is a function of his performance measured against his cap value. A non-expansion NFL team typically drafts 12 players (the “T12” if you will) in the first 3 rounds over a 4 year period. These 12 players are particularly valuable to a franchise in a salary cap regime, because they typically have much lower cap values than players signed through free agency. For example, Chester Pitts has a 2004 cap value of $705,000, but Steve McKinney has a 2004 cap value of $3,050,000.

Typically, an impact player becomes a free agent after four accrued years and either leaves, or receives his first big free agency contract. Each year, a franchise typically loses 3 first day drafted players to free agency (unless they re-sign the players) and get three replacements through the draft, thereby maintaining their T12 (in some cases, of course, a player drafted to be a T12 player won’t work out and a team may end up with less than 12, or a second day drafted player may excel, like Domanick Davis, thereby creating more than 12). McKinney, Bradford, Wong, Smith and Wade are all examples of four year players who got big raises to come to the Texans for their 5th year.

In the 2002 season, the Texans first year, they only had 5 T12 (1 first, 2 second and 2 third), while all the other teams had 12. Bummer. Unlike the Panthers and the Jaguars, the Texans weren’t given any extra first round picks. Hard to compete.

The good news is the Texans have now caught up, thanks to expansion picks and Charlie Casserly’s astute trades. They now have 12 players who they drafted on the first day. The Texans now have a T12 like other NFL teams. Good.

New Posting

How about the Texans next opponent, the Tacks. How does their T12 compare with the Texans?

. . .YR . . Texans (only 3 yrs) . . . . . . YR . . . Tacks (4 yrs)

F . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .’01
I. . ’02 . QB David Carr . . . . . . . . . . .’02 DT Albert Haynesworth
R . ’03 . WR Andre Johnson . . . . . . . .‘03 CB Andre Woolfolk
S . ’04 . CB Dunta Robinson. . . . . . . . ’04
T . ’04 . LB Jason Babin

S . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ’01 CB Andre Dyson
E . ’02 . WR Jabar Gaffney
C . ’02 . OL Chester Pitts . . . . . . . . . .’02 DB Tank Williams
O . ’03 . TE Benny Joppru . . . . . . . . . ‘03 WR Tyrone Calico
N . ’04 . RB Tony Hollings. . . . . . . . . . ’04 TE Ben Troupe
D . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .’04 DE Travis LaBoy
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .’04 DE Antwan Odom

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .’01 TE Shad Meier
T . ’02 . OL Fred Weary . . . . . . . . . . .’02 LB Rocky Calmus
H . ’02 . OL Charles Hill (released)
I . ’03. . LB Antwan Peek .. . . . . . . . . ’03 RB Chris Brown
R . ’03 . OL Seth Wand
D . ’03 . QB Dave Ragone
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .’04 DT Randy Starks
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 04 CB Rich Gardner

I would argue that the Tacks, like the Vikings, illustrate how we have ‘arrived’ after just three years of drafts. We drafted 13 first day players and the Tacks have drafted 13 (note – the above also illustrates why the Tacks were prepared to trade quality for quantity in 2004. To catch up on their number of T12 players, they traded McCareins and their 1st round pick and came away with 5 T12 selections in 2004). Further, the Texans have generated 7 starters (Carr, Johnson, Gaffney, Pitts, Wand, Babin, Robinson) from their T12 and the Tacks have generated 6 starters (I think – Brown, Haynesworth, Meier, Odom, Dyson, Williams) from their T12.

. . . . . . Texans (only 3 yrs) . . . . . . . . . . Tacks (4 yrs)

. . . . . . QB David Carr
. . . . . . QB Dave Ragone

. . . . . . RB Tony Hollings . . . . . . . . . . . RB Chris Brown

. . . . . .WR Andre Johnson . . . . . . . . . . WR Tyrone Calico
. . . . . .WR Jabar Gaffney

. . . . . . TE Benny Joppru . . . . . . . . . . . .TE Shad Meier
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . TE Ben Troupe

. . . . . .OL Chester Pitts
. . . . . .OL Seth Wand
. . . . . .OL Fred Weary

. . . . . .DL Charles Hill (released) . . . . . . . DT Albert Haynesworth
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DT Randy Starks
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DE Travis LaBoy
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DE Antwan Odom

. . . . . .LB Jason Babin. . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB Rocky Calmus
. . . . . .LB Antwan Peek

. . . . . .CB Dunta Robinson . . . . . . . . . . . CB Andre Woolfolk
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .CB Andre Dyson
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DB Tank Williams
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .CB Rich Gardner

Would you trade our players, above, for their players, above?

As with the Vikings, I think the comparison is difficult, because we drafted primary for offense in our first two drafts and the Tacks drafted primarily for defense. I would add (without being able to substantiate it) that I believe that Tacks GM, Floyd Reese is well respected and that many people would acknowledge that they do an excellent job in player evaluation. If you feel that the Texans T12 is at least comparable to the Tacks T12, then I would argue that this shows that the Texans personnel department has done an excellent job.

One thing that really stands out is that the Tacks haven’t drafted early for the O-line in the last few years.

Old Posting

And the news gets better for the Texans. In 2005, the Texans should keep all of their T12 (none will have four accrued years) and add 4 new members through the 2005 draft (1 first, 1 second and 2 thirds), giving them a total of 16 T12. Great news!

. . YR . . Texans (4 yrs)

F. .‘02 . QB David Carr
I . ’03 . WR Andre Johnson
R . ’04 . CB Dunta Robinson
S . ‘04 . LB Jason Babin
T . ’05 . . . . P I C K

S . ’02 . WR Jabar Gaffney
E . ’02 . OL Chester Pitts
C . ’03 . TE Benny Joppru
O . ’04 . RB Tony Hollings
N . ’05 . . . . P I C K
D

. . ‘02 . OL Fred Weary
T . ’02 . OL Charles Hill (released)
H . ’03 . LB Antwan Peek
I . .‘03 . OL Seth Wand
R . ‘03 . QB Dave Ragone
D . ’05 . . . . P I C K
. .. ’05 . . . . P I C K

wags · 10-14-2004

Just goes to show how little we have focused on defense in draft. I expect we will draft defense heavy again this next year.

V Man · 10-15-2004

And remember a bunch of the titans picks were ours.

STL_Titan · 10-15-2004

I'm still sour over the Robaire Smith pickup.

FatBoyTim · 10-15-2004

the big issue is the texans drafted extremely high in all three of their drafts and the titans have drafted extremely low. I think they have drafted well. Look at CBrown in round three. That is a homerun. He has played 5 games and has 556 yds already. Davis played 10 games and had 1000. Brown is on pace to blow up 1000 yds by week 9 or 10.

HJam72 · 10-16-2004

Why do you keep putting this garbage on here? It has nothing to do with whether or not we will win the game. We don't care about draft choices and T12s and T13s.

Just kidding. I didn't want you to feel out of place with nobody complaining yet this week.

Mistril48 · 10-16-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatBoyTim

I think they have drafted well.

I agree with you and tried to convey that with my comment: "I would add (without being able to substantiate it) that I believe that Tacks GM, Floyd Reese is well respected and that many people would acknowledge that they do an excellent job in player evaluation." You could also argue that it is their ability to develop talent rather than draft talent that they do best, but I offer no opinion on that

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatBoyTim

the big issue is the texans drafted extremely high in all three of their drafts and the titans have drafted extremely low ... Look at CBrown in round three. That is a homerun. He has played 5 games and has 556 yds already. Davis played 10 games and had 1000. Brown is on pace to blow up 1000 yds by week 9 or 10.

The reason that the Texans drafted high and the Tacks low, is because the Tacks had a very good team, including a very good, veteran offensive line (so stable in fact that they haven't drafted an offensive linemen on the first day in the last 4 years). You seem to ignore this fact when you compare Domanick Davis to Chris Brown. Isn't it possible that the Tacks offensive line is responsible for some of Chris Brown's production (10 yard more / game i.e. 550 in 5 game compared to 1000 in 10)

**Vinny** · 10-16-2004

Mike Munchak does a fantastic job with interior linemen development. He has done a sensational job with Olson and Pillar over the years and now Bell has really come along and played better than they had hoped (or better earlier than they hoped). Reese was brought in and groomed by Mike Holovak (well respected personnel man) and has continued his eye for talent with a string of excellent drafts. They may have whiffed on Andre Woolfolk though. They passed on Eugene Wilson, Charles Tillman, Sammy Davis and Ricky Manning Jr.

Mistril48 · 10-16-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinny

Mike Munchak does a fantastic job with interior linemen development...

Vinnie, Thanks for adding the color!

How great is it to be a Texan fan! We have a stable, young franchise with what appears to be some significant stars being developed and a great stadium. Our division has the co-MVPs from last year and two up and coming teams. I think that for the foreseeable future we are going to have 6 great division games each year! Aren't you glad you don't have the 49ers and the Cardinals in our division (boring)?

With the player evaluation/development ability that the Tacks have, we should have a great rivalry for a long time.

Mistril48 · 11-25-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mistril48

... the Tacks have generated 6 starters (I think – Brown, Haynesworth, Meier, Odom, Dyson, Williams) from their T12 ...

This list identifies the current injuries to the Tacks T12:

.S Tank Williams: . . . . . .Knee (Out)
CB Andre Woolfolk: . . . . Wrist (Out)
RB Chris Brown: . . . . . . .Toe (Questionable)
DT Albert Haynesworth: . Elbow (Questionable)

10-14-2004	#1
Mistril48 All Pro Join Date: May 2004 Location: Houston Posts: 548 Rep Power: 10	Tacks Terrific 12 v. Texan Terrific 12 Old Posting (new posting below) In a salary cap regime like the NFL, the value of a player is a function of his performance measured against his cap value. A non-expansion NFL team typically drafts 12 players (the “T12” if you will) in the first 3 rounds over a 4 year period. These 12 players are particularly valuable to a franchise in a salary cap regime, because they typically have much lower cap values than players signed through free agency. For example, Chester Pitts has a 2004 cap value of $705,000, but Steve McKinney has a 2004 cap value of $3,050,000. Typically, an impact player becomes a free agent after four accrued years and either leaves, or receives his first big free agency contract. Each year, a franchise typically loses 3 first day drafted players to free agency (unless they re-sign the players) and get three replacements through the draft, thereby maintaining their T12 (in some cases, of course, a player drafted to be a T12 player won’t work out and a team may end up with less than 12, or a second day drafted player may excel, like Domanick Davis, thereby creating more than 12). McKinney, Bradford, Wong, Smith and Wade are all examples of four year players who got big raises to come to the Texans for their 5th year. In the 2002 season, the Texans first year, they only had 5 T12 (1 first, 2 second and 2 third), while all the other teams had 12. Bummer. Unlike the Panthers and the Jaguars, the Texans weren’t given any extra first round picks. Hard to compete. The good news is the Texans have now caught up, thanks to expansion picks and Charlie Casserly’s astute trades. They now have 12 players who they drafted on the first day. The Texans now have a T12 like other NFL teams. Good. New Posting How about the Texans next opponent, the Tacks. How does their T12 compare with the Texans? . . .YR . . Texans (only 3 yrs) . . . . . . YR . . . Tacks (4 yrs) F . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .’01 I. . ’02 . QB David Carr . . . . . . . . . . .’02 DT Albert Haynesworth R . ’03 . WR Andre Johnson . . . . . . . .‘03 CB Andre Woolfolk S . ’04 . CB Dunta Robinson. . . . . . . . ’04 T . ’04 . LB Jason Babin S . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ’01 CB Andre Dyson E . ’02 . WR Jabar Gaffney C . ’02 . OL Chester Pitts . . . . . . . . . .’02 DB Tank Williams O . ’03 . TE Benny Joppru . . . . . . . . . ‘03 WR Tyrone Calico N . ’04 . RB Tony Hollings. . . . . . . . . . ’04 TE Ben Troupe D . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .’04 DE Travis LaBoy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .’04 DE Antwan Odom . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .’01 TE Shad Meier T . ’02 . OL Fred Weary . . . . . . . . . . .’02 LB Rocky Calmus H . ’02 . OL Charles Hill (released) I . ’03. . LB Antwan Peek .. . . . . . . . . ’03 RB Chris Brown R . ’03 . OL Seth Wand D . ’03 . QB Dave Ragone . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .’04 DT Randy Starks . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 04 CB Rich Gardner I would argue that the Tacks, like the Vikings, illustrate how we have ‘arrived’ after just three years of drafts. We drafted 13 first day players and the Tacks have drafted 13 (note – the above also illustrates why the Tacks were prepared to trade quality for quantity in 2004. To catch up on their number of T12 players, they traded McCareins and their 1st round pick and came away with 5 T12 selections in 2004). Further, the Texans have generated 7 starters (Carr, Johnson, Gaffney, Pitts, Wand, Babin, Robinson) from their T12 and the Tacks have generated 6 starters (I think – Brown, Haynesworth, Meier, Odom, Dyson, Williams) from their T12. . . . . . . Texans (only 3 yrs) . . . . . . . . . . Tacks (4 yrs) . . . . . . QB David Carr . . . . . . QB Dave Ragone . . . . . . RB Tony Hollings . . . . . . . . . . . RB Chris Brown . . . . . .WR Andre Johnson . . . . . . . . . . WR Tyrone Calico . . . . . .WR Jabar Gaffney . . . . . . TE Benny Joppru . . . . . . . . . . . .TE Shad Meier . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . TE Ben Troupe . . . . . .OL Chester Pitts . . . . . .OL Seth Wand . . . . . .OL Fred Weary . . . . . .DL Charles Hill (released) . . . . . . . DT Albert Haynesworth . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DT Randy Starks . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DE Travis LaBoy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DE Antwan Odom . . . . . .LB Jason Babin. . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB Rocky Calmus . . . . . .LB Antwan Peek . . . . . .CB Dunta Robinson . . . . . . . . . . . CB Andre Woolfolk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .CB Andre Dyson . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DB Tank Williams . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .CB Rich Gardner Would you trade our players, above, for their players, above? As with the Vikings, I think the comparison is difficult, because we drafted primary for offense in our first two drafts and the Tacks drafted primarily for defense. I would add (without being able to substantiate it) that I believe that Tacks GM, Floyd Reese is well respected and that many people would acknowledge that they do an excellent job in player evaluation. If you feel that the Texans T12 is at least comparable to the Tacks T12, then I would argue that this shows that the Texans personnel department has done an excellent job. One thing that really stands out is that the Tacks haven’t drafted early for the O-line in the last few years. Old Posting And the news gets better for the Texans. In 2005, the Texans should keep all of their T12 (none will have four accrued years) and add 4 new members through the 2005 draft (1 first, 1 second and 2 thirds), giving them a total of 16 T12. Great news! . . YR . . Texans (4 yrs) F. .‘02 . QB David Carr I . ’03 . WR Andre Johnson R . ’04 . CB Dunta Robinson S . ‘04 . LB Jason Babin T . ’05 . . . . P I C K S . ’02 . WR Jabar Gaffney E . ’02 . OL Chester Pitts C . ’03 . TE Benny Joppru O . ’04 . RB Tony Hollings N . ’05 . . . . P I C K D . . ‘02 . OL Fred Weary T . ’02 . OL Charles Hill (released) H . ’03 . LB Antwan Peek I . .‘03 . OL Seth Wand R . ‘03 . QB Dave Ragone D . ’05 . . . . P I C K . .. ’05 . . . . P I C K

10-14-2004	#2
wags Hall of Fame Join Date: May 2004 Location: TX and FL Age: 34 Posts: 1,601 Rep Power: 22	Just goes to show how little we have focused on defense in draft. I expect we will draft defense heavy again this next year. __________________ A good argument is always spoiled by someone who knows what they're talking about

10-15-2004	#3
V Man Pumpkinhead Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alamo City Age: 45 Posts: 2,586 Rep Power: 18	And remember a bunch of the titans picks were ours. __________________ sig by michaelm

10-15-2004	#4
STL_Titan Rookie Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: St. Louis Posts: 13 Rep Power: 0	I'm still sour over the Robaire Smith pickup. __________________ GO CARDS!!! GO TITANS!!!

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10-15-2004	#5
FatBoyTim Rookie Join Date: Aug 2004 Age: 51 Posts: 99 Rep Power: 9	the big issue is the texans drafted extremely high in all three of their drafts and the titans have drafted extremely low. I think they have drafted well. Look at CBrown in round three. That is a homerun. He has played 5 games and has 556 yds already. Davis played 10 games and had 1000. Brown is on pace to blow up 1000 yds by week 9 or 10.

10-16-2004	#6
HJam72 Hall of Fame Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Over here. Age: 40 Posts: 10,475 Rep Power: 18004	Why do you keep putting this garbage on here? It has nothing to do with whether or not we will win the game. We don't care about draft choices and T12s and T13s. Just kidding. I didn't want you to feel out of place with nobody complaining yet this week.

10-16-2004	#8
Vinny shiny happy fan Join Date: Apr 2004 Age: 49 Posts: 20,714 Rep Power: 55750	Mike Munchak does a fantastic job with interior linemen development. He has done a sensational job with Olson and Pillar over the years and now Bell has really come along and played better than they had hoped (or better earlier than they hoped). Reese was brought in and groomed by Mike Holovak (well respected personnel man) and has continued his eye for talent with a string of excellent drafts. They may have whiffed on Andre Woolfolk though. They passed on Eugene Wilson, Charles Tillman, Sammy Davis and Ricky Manning Jr.

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